The Eminence Islam Attaches To Women

[linwood]

Ok. Yeah I have heard of this, and let me assure everybody it has nothing to do with Islam.

Mohamed speaks of it himself in his hadiths.

He does not condemn it in fact he accepts it.

You have been quoting the Hadiths to me as if they were a central part of Islam.

You can`t have it both ways.

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

Yes, I know a weak hadith indeed but there it is.

 

[_salam_]

Yes, Hadith are an essential part of Islam. However, there is still nothing in Islam that makes female circumcision obligatory or even a commen practice. Now to comment on the Hadith that you provided. When I read it it seems to me that, although Muhammad (pbuh) allowed the women to be circumcised, he offered warning against it. "Do not cut to severely as that is better for a women and more desirable for a husband." This clearly shows that he was offering warning to not cut to deep or severe because it is better for the women not to and it is more desirable for her not to.

I noticed that you claimed that this is a weak Hadith, I was hoping that you could provide where this Hadith is from, if thats possible? Also, we don't follow the weak or unauthenticated Hadith. We only follow those Hadith that have been verified and authenticated, and there is quite a rigorous process that the Hadith go through to attain this statis.

 

[jasonparker]

this is an index of the Quran. http://www.harunyahya.com/indexa.php
this is perfect because anyone wondering about something should go and look what Quran says about it.

 

[jasonparker]

i wonder your idea:

The Importance of Preparing for Jesus in Joy, Excitement, and Exuberance
Jesus is a blessed Messenger whom God graced with a miraculous life and honored by being chosen as a Prophet. God revealed that Jesus is "of high esteem in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near [to My presence]" (Qur'an, 3:45), and that he will be rewarded with Paradise. For this reason, all people must welcome him in the nicest possible way when he returns. Even a poor person prepares his or her house days in advance for an expected guest, and strives to be proper and worthy. On the other hand, given that Jesus is a most valued guest as well as a Prophet with superior qualities, everyone must welcome his return to Earth in the nicest way possible.
Jesus' second coming is a very great gift of God for all humanity, and it is an equally great gift to meet with this valued Prophet. When he comes, he will draw everyone's attention with his innocent, pure, and bright face, and will capture humanity's attention with his accurate, wise, and insightful speech. For the first time ever in their lives, all people alive at that time will see a Prophet of superior human qualities. God willing, his second life will be as full of miracles as was his first life. All people will admire him for his virtue and unrivalled wisdom. His every word will be inspired by God, and his every decision will be accurate.
All people, especially believing Christians and Muslims, must prepare in excitement, vigor, and great exuberance for his arrival. Those who do not do so are committing a great error, for it is a grave act of disrespect to be lazy or unconcerned about the arrival of such an important guest. Those who believe God's words must ponder the developments in the world and be aware of the signs of the End Times in order to prepare for this most important guest's arrival. They cannot say "I believe in Jesus' second coming" and then think along the lines of "but I will prepare later or make up for it later." Which conscientious, genuine Christian could say, when the appointed time has come: "We were expecting Jesus, but didn't consider it necessary to prepare for it"? If they say so because they believe that this event might be another 15-20 years away, they are mistaken, because they will see that 15-20 years can pass just like 15-20 days. As a result, they will suffer great remorse for their indifference. No one should forget that people in the 1970s thought of the 1980s or 1990s as the distant future. However, time passed quickly and brought the new millennium. Likewise, the day of our meeting with Jesus will arrive soon, God willing.

 

[linwood]

I`m sorry Salam I obviously lost track of this thread.
My reply is very late.

When I read it it seems to me that, although Muhammad (pbuh) allowed the women to be circumcised, he offered warning against it. "Do not cut to severely as that is better for a women and more desirable for a husband." This clearly shows that he was offering warning to not cut to deep or severe because it is better for the women not to and it is more desirable for her not to.

Actually I`m sorry but that sounds like a rationalization to me.

He didn`t offer any warning against it he offered advice as to how it could be done better.

A warning against it would be something like.."Hey..stop that what the hell do you think you`re doing?"

Thats speaking against it

I noticed that you claimed that this is a weak Hadith, I was hoping that you could provide where this Hadith is from, if thats possible?

I`ll have a look around tonight and find it.

 

[_salam_]

I`m sorry Salam I obviously lost track of this thread.
My reply is very late.


Actually I`m sorry but that sounds like a rationalization to me.

He didn`t offer any warning against it he offered advice as to how it could be done better.

A warning against it would be something like.."Hey..stop that what the hell do you think you`re doing?"

Thats speaking against it

Well regardles it's not something that Islam teaches us that we have to do, which I believe is basically what I said before.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Equality of rights, tasks and responsibilities may be official canon, but the debate arises from the huge and undeniable divide between this and the de facto rights, tasks and responsibilities in many islamic countries.

Eg: In some Islamic countries women may not drive, venture out unescorted, travel abroad without written permission from a legal guardian (which may be her own son!), hold the same jobs or attend the same schools as men, or even uncover their heads in public. Islamic women are treated like children their entire lives. This is what westerners find so odd about assertions of islamic freedom and tolerance.

Amen, Seyorni, and, may I say, I like your avatar.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

In regard to the political intent of cliterectomy, it is done to women because women are feared, because their sexuality is feared, because their sexual appetites are feared.

Most cliterectomies are performed under the most unsanitary conditions and often result in the death of a young girl from infection.

A cliterectomy removes totally the possibility of sexual enjoyment for women--hence the utter stifling of their sexuality.

 

[flysky]

Womens Rights in Islam By Jacqueline S. Waheed


The following list contains some example of rights that Muslim women have:
1. The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.
2. The RIGHT to have her own independent property.
3. The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.
4. The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.
5. The RIGHT to express her opinion.
6. The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.
7. The RIGHT to vote since 1,421 years.
8. The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.
9. The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
10.The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islaam divorce is suppose to be last resort.
11.The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].
12.The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
13.The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]
14.The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.
15.The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.
16. The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.
EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.
Women are exempt from:

a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.
- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.
Islamic laws does not requires that women should confine themselves to household duties.
Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.
Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE Think on this!

 

[Ardhanariswar]

No matter how many laws any government/religion puts into place, it can be/will be different from reality and how well these laws are enforced.

 

[Popeyesays]

Womens Rights in Islam By Jacqueline S. Waheed


The following list contains some example of rights that Muslim women have:
1. The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.
2. The RIGHT to have her own independent property.
3. The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.
4. The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.
5. The RIGHT to express her opinion.
6. The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.
7. The RIGHT to vote since 1,421 years.
8. The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.
9. The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
10.The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islaam divorce is suppose to be last resort.
11.The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].
12.The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
13.The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]
14.The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.
15.The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.
16. The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.
EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.
Women are exempt from:

a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.
- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.
Islamic laws does not requires that women should confine themselves to household duties.
Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.
Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE Think on this!

The Baha`i Faith as a matter of fact.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Yerda]

Well regardles it's not something that Islam teaches us that we have to do, which I believe is basically what I said before.

Always dodging the question. At RF we hate Islam twice a week, once on Sunday, three times on Tuesday. That's seven. We like chappatis. Don't hound us with your crazy logic. If someone says 'Islam is crap' cause they say so they must be right.

Tolerance.

 

[Ezzedean]

This does not speak of equality.
It`s discrimination.

You may paint it any way you like but it doesn`t change the fact that the Koran sets one sex above the other as superior.

All Abrahamic religions do this , for a woman who wishes to freely subject herself to this type of subservience it is fine.

It will not do for my daughter.

I'm gonna get torn apart for this but whatever, one sex is above the other as superior. Men have some skills and mind sets that some women do not, and the same goes for womem, as they have some things that we dont. Physically, we are stronger and a more dominant presence, plain and simple. We run the world. No women presidents or prime ministers. Why not? Hate to break it to ya, but we are surperior.

Before every female in this room decides to bash me and tear my words apart, just sit and think about it for a second, I'm not saying to beat women, I'm not saying to deprive women of their rights, all I'm saying is that man runs the world we live in, plain and simple, if it was meant to be the other way around, then women would be in charge, but it wasn't and therfore they are not.

NOW.... why can't I sit and complain about the Quranic verses which tell the men to take care of their families and wives, and to support them with everything they need? The Quran teaches that the man should put food on the tables, clothes on the childrens back, and keep your wife COMPLETELY satisfied. Why do I have to do all of this? Why do I have to work my *** off and my wife has permission from God to stay at home and take care of the children? Now I don't see this as unfair, but it's something to think about for a second, because they men are given a LARGE responsibility and a very demanding role in life, just as everyone says it is unfair for women, if a man REALLY wanted to... he could go and say it is unfair for the men also. Women are better care takers than men, can anyone tell me I'm wrong? Can anyone tell me that it would work out better if every man stayed home with the children, while the women went to work and struggled to keep everything intact? I personally don't think it would. I'm not saying the women can't work, and that she has to stay at home BUT it's not so much "your role", but showing that love and care for your children is something that women can do a lot better than men. If my wife wants to work, by all means, she's gonna work, and we will figure things out together, but if she goes and tells me she wants to be a stay at home wife, not for ONE second will I think twice about taking the responsibility of taking care of her and our children (finances, food, clothes, home). Is my role harder than hers? No. But one role takes a certain someone, and the other takes a certain someone also. The Quran just tells us which one does what. In Western society, i'd say that the majority of families follow the same guidline with the man of household being somewhat of a leader, and the women being his companinion (helper, supporter, lover,). This is what people need to understand, Islamic women choose these roles... ESPECIALLY in Western society, they WANT to stay at home and take care of the kids, THEY WANT to not work, THEY WANT to wear the hijab.


Why is it that in Western society women are portrayed always as slim and beautiful? Why is that women are such a sexual figure on western society? Don't ANYONE dare tell me I'm wrong, women in North America are a bunch of whores (not all of them but ALOT of them). This questions is for Mothers and Fathers... if you had a 13 year old daughter come up to you wearing a short skirt with a tank top, and her tits showing to everyone with half decent vision and then goes on to tell you "Daddy I'm going to the mall, see ya later"... How you gonna feel about that? Are you gonna be comfortable with that? Because if you are.... you are CRAZY!! Women should have respect for themselves. Women shouldn't have to use sex to get mens attention and to feel good about themselves, and I hate it to break it to ya, but here in Western society, that's how things go. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I live here, I see it on television everyday, I see it in the malls, at schools, at the clubs and anywhere else I go, and it's disgusting. I'm gonna put my wife on a higher pedistool than that crap, I'm gonna walk with my head up high with my wife.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean Fadel

 

[Popeyesays]

"I'm gonna get torn apart for this but whatever, one sex is above the other as superior. Men have some skills and mind sets that some women do not, and the same goes for womem, as they have some things that we dont. Physically, we are stronger and a more dominant presence, plain and simple. We run the world. No women presidents or prime ministers. Why not? Hate to break it to ya, but we are surperior. "

Golda Meier, Margaret Thatcher, Sirimavo Bandaranaike, Sri Lanka , Indira Ghandi, Dame Eugenia Charles, Vigdis Finneboggasdottr, Gro Harlem Broondtgard, Mika Planninc, Agatha Barbara, Bennazir Buto, Mary Robinson, AAng San Kyu Ki, Khaleda Zia, Susan Carmilia-Romer, Tansu Siler, Chandrika Bandaranaike Kumaratunge, Sheik Wazina Wajed,Mary McAleese, Janet Jaga, Jenny Shipley, Jennifer Smith, Helen Clark, Mireya Elisa Moscoso de Arias, Tarja Kaarina Halonen http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20th/a/women_heads.htm

I hope I got in first, to save you the wrath of the Bacchantes.

""... imbued with the same virtues as man, rising through all the degrees of human attainment, women will become the peers of men, and until this equality is established, true progress and attainment for the human race will not be facilitated. 619 "The evident reasons underlying this are as follows: Woman by nature is opposed to war; she is an advocate of peace. Children are reared and brought up by the mothers who give them the first principles of education and labour assiduously in their behalf. Consider, for instance, a mother who has tenderly reared a son for twenty years to the age of maturity. Surely she will not consent to having that son torn asunder and killed in the field of battle. Therefore, as women advance toward the degree of man in power and privilege, with the right of vote an control in human government, most assuredly war will cease; for women naturally the most devoted and staunch advocate of international peace."
('Abdu'l-Bahá: "The Promulgation of Universal Peace," 1982 U.S. edition, p. 375)
2093. The Woman has Greater Moral Courage than Man and is of the Greater Importance to the Race
"The woman is indeed of the greater importance to the race. She has the greater burden and the greater work. Look at the vegetable and the animal worlds. The palm which carries the fruit is the tree most prized by the date grower. The Arab knows that for a long journey the mare has the longest wind. For her greater strength and fierceness, the lioness is more feared by the hunter than the lion... 'The Women has greater moral courage than the man; she has also special gifts which enable her to govern in moments of danger and crisis."
('Abdu'l-Bahá in London, 1982 U.K. edition, pp. 102-103)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance)


Regards,
Scott

 

[Ardhanariswar]

"Physically, we are stronger and a more dominant presence, plain and simple. We run the world. No women presidents or prime ministers. Why not? Hate to break it to ya, but we are surperior. "

Think about it. Why is it that most of society is patriarichal? You said it, men are stronger and beat women to positions of authority. Im talking about thousands of years ago. Leaders of tribes were men because they could protect the village. And the strongest would be able to do so more efficiently than a general female. And this tradition has been passed on thorughout history.

But in a society where physical strength doesn't matter that much and brains is everything, thats on the level where men and women are equal.

You forget that there are women leaders (as scott has pointed out) and they are capable of ruling any more than me. There are tons of women out there who can physically overcome YOU. What you say is *in general*, but in reality and in modern day, these generalities hardly hold.

I agree with you, it is sickening that our culture obsesses with plastic beauty. But the same goes for men, not just women.

Whose fault is that? I d

_________________________________-

"but showing that love and care for your children is something that women can do a lot better than men."

Uh, no. Just... no. Caring and sensitivity is acquired. Change your surroudnings if you have to, theres nothing innate about it.

Gender roles are not defined by your sex, its defined by society and has a psychological impact on the person.

"This is what people need to understand, Islamic women choose these roles... ESPECIALLY in Western society, they WANT to stay at home and take care of the kids, THEY WANT to not work, THEY WANT to wear the hijab. "

UNDERSTAND that there are muslim women who do NOT WANT to wear the hijab. That choice is taken away from many muslim women in the middle east. Thats bad. Shouldn't devotion to God and religion be based on your choice and willingness?

I just don't see the point of being devoted to God if you are forced to do it anyway.

 

[Ezzedean]

Golda Meier, Margaret Thatcher, Sirimavo Bandaranaike, Sri Lanka , Indira Ghandi, Dame Eugenia Charles, Vigdis Finneboggasdottr, Gro Harlem Broondtgard, Mika Planninc, Agatha Barbara, Bennazir Buto, Mary Robinson, AAng San Kyu Ki, Khaleda Zia, Susan Carmilia-Romer, Tansu Siler, Chandrika Bandaranaike Kumaratunge, Sheik Wazina Wajed,Mary McAleese, Janet Jaga, Jenny Shipley, Jennifer Smith, Helen Clark, Mireya Elisa Moscoso de Arias, Tarja Kaarina Halonen http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20th/a/women_heads.htm

I was defincately wrong on that one, I stand corrected.

But in a society where physical strength doesn't matter that much and brains is everything, thats on the level where men and women are equal.

You forget that there are women leaders (as scott has pointed out) and they are capable of ruling any more than me. There are tons of women out there who can physically overcome YOU. What you say is *in general*, but in reality and in modern day, these generalities hardly hold.

I agree with you, it is sickening that our culture obsesses with plastic beauty. But the same goes for men, not just women.

Again I was ignorant with the world leaders situation, but all together I think I was making a decent point with the whole situation. I wasn't necessarily downsizing women, but I was trying to show how BOTH sides male and female have a very important role, and although those roles may be different, it doesn't make one more important than the other. I think our duties as people given by God are split evenly, and if a man is given the responsibility of looking out for his wifes best interests and making the final decisions (after discussion with his wife), it shouldn't be taken as an insult towards women, I think instead women should appreciate the fact that God prescribes us to take care of you, love you, respect you, and always do what's best for you.

As for the sexual image of women being all over the place, you are right in saying that it's with the males aswell, but I still feel that the women get it a little worse and have more of an influence.

Peace be unto you Ardhanariswar

and
Peace be unto you popeyesays

Ezzedean Fadel

 

[Popeyesays]

I was defincately wrong on that one, I stand corrected.



Again I was ignorant with the world leaders situation, but all together I think I was making a decent point with the whole situation. I wasn't necessarily downsizing women, but I was trying to show how BOTH sides male and female have a very important role, and although those roles may be different, it doesn't make one more important than the other. I think our duties as people given by God are split evenly, and if a man is given the responsibility of looking out for his wifes best interests and making the final decisions (after discussion with his wife), it shouldn't be taken as an insult towards women, I think instead women should appreciate the fact that God prescribes us to take care of you, love you, respect you, and always do what's best for you.

As for the sexual image of women being all over the place, you are right in saying that it's with the males aswell, but I still feel that the women get it a little worse and have more of an influence.

Peace be unto you Ardhanariswar

and
Peace be unto you popeyesays

Ezzedean Fadel

I thnk it important to note that I quite agree with you about the nature of a husband looking out fo his wife. But many modern Muslims don't realize that in a Godly marriage the wife has the same responsibility toward her husband, and he should take thta advice with the same spirit that he would like his wife to take his advice as well.

A marriage of equals is, after all what Muhammad had with Kadijah was it not?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ezzedean]

I thnk it important to note that I quite agree with you about the nature of a husband looking out fo his wife. But many modern Muslims don't realize that in a Godly marriage the wife has the same responsibility toward her husband, and he should take thta advice with the same spirit that he would like his wife to take his advice as well.

A marriage of equals is, after all what Muhammad had with Kadijah was it not?

Regards,
Scott

Couldn't agree more.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean Fadel