The Equality of Men and Women

[Ellen Brown]

As a man who was born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), I can honestly say that perhaps the strongest, most frequent, and most seriously treated subject that I have been taught over the years is that men are not superior to women, the abuse of a spouse is one of the ugliest sins on earth, sexual predation or taking sexual or other advantage of a woman or girl is one of the greatest abominations around. These abuses render a man's priesthood "authority" null and void and leave him in great need of repentance.But yes, in my church there is a role distinction. Men hold the priesthood where women do not. Women speak, teach, and pray in church and lead many things. But ultimately a man, the Bishop runs the local congregation. Women sit in council with the highest leaders of the Church, the Apostles and the First Presidency. But yes, ultimately it's a man with the priesthood who runs the Church. But women have a lot of influence and are taken seriously in their council. So, I believe a loving God established a plan with different roles for men and women. But, the marriage relationship is not the same as in the church. There is no hierarchy at home between man and woman. While there are different roles, they are equal partners with an equal say in marital and family decisions. The husband can't pull rank.

Please don't get defensive. I am not attacking the Church. I was a member from Jan 31, 2012 to Nov 2, 2017. I know a fair bit about the doctrine. There were some men that tried to practice unrighteous dominion however. Women simply have a different function than men, and I accept that, though I still won't put up with a man trying to dominate me.

It is however a multilevel membership organization and I can accept that with some reluctance. My issue with the church is that the Leadership in SLC sought to punish me over a situation that was not my fault. Preemptively, I resigned before they got a chance to excommunicate me.

Don't pull the "I'm more expert than you" card. I know enough to report what happened to me. Their smugness about Deep Doctrine, and various thinly veiled insinuations were unacceptable.

We needn't speak further.

 

[Dawnofhope]

1893. Good job.

Mormon women in Utah had the right to vote from the time the church was founded in 1830, and the only reason Utah isn't the first place in line for women's suffrage is because the federal government disenfranchised the women in 1887, and didn't get it back until Utah became a state in 1896.Utah women were promised that it would be given right back at the state constitutional convention. In fact, fifteen of the then 48 states, every single one of them west of the Mississippi, and every single one of them Republican. In fact, the Democrats, along with being incredibly racist (the KKK was the 'enforcement arm' of the Democratic Party) were dead set against women's suffrage.

My, how they have managed to whitewash their history. It's amazing.

ANYway, congratulations, and good for New Zealand. It took the USA a little longer to get suffrage to everybody, but we had to do it piecemeal and there were a few more obstacles to overcome.

Like the Democrats.

Thanks for your post.

As Mormonism emerged at a similar time to the Baha’i Faith, albeit from vastly different cultures (Islamic Shi’a Persia compared to the Christian USA) its interesting to compare similarities and differences. There are certainly many positives in regards gender equality though there’s conflicting information.

Mormonism and women - Wikipedia

I didn’t realise how strongly many Mormons identity with the Republican Party in American politics. Baha’is avoid involvement in party politics. So while we will vote, we are careful to avoid being aligned to a particular political party.

U.S. religious groups and their political leanings

Interesting comments about race too. I was aware of the Mormons history in regards darker skinned people not having the same rights as those of European ancestry.

Mormons Once Aspired to Be a 'White and Delightsome' People

 

[Deeje]

To what extent has your faith tradition or worldview promoted equality?

What is equality anyhow?

Looking at this subject from the Biblical viewpoint (which is the only one that matters to me) I see that God did not separate men and women except to assign them different roles in the family and in the congregation. This whole equality thing just gets in the way of a smooth running of family and congregational cohesion IMO.

1 Corinthians 11:3 is the way God set things up....
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

In this arrangement, even Christ does not please himself. This is the structure that works as long as people see that their role is an assignment from God. If the son of God knows his place then what have we got to complain about?

In any business organization, we never see two bosses, but always one boss and several assistants who each play a role in the smooth running of the company. If the boss is away, the second-in-charge takes over and fills in as his representative. Too many bosses just doesn't work. If everyone knows their job and is happy to do it well, then there is no envy, jealousy or friction.

The decision making can have input from many advisors, but only one bears the responsibility for it. How many CEO have had to stand down because of bad decisions that were not all theirs?

Likewise, a car has only one driver although there might be a navigator seated next to them. Two sets of instruments and two steering wheels would just cause no end of trouble. Instead of competing, I believe that God meant the roles of both males and females to be complementary. This is what God said when he created the woman as a "complement" of her mate. If each knows what is expected and is happy to stay in that assignment, then harmony will result.

If OTOH a person applies for a job that requires a certain level of education, then gender should not be a factor if either sex is capable of fulfilling the role. Equal pay should also apply. But I know for many men, taking orders from a woman just doesn't sit well. Its a left-over from the chauvinist era where men saw themselves more as dictators, than family heads. It was never supposed to be that way.

That is how I see things, anyway.

 

[Ellen Brown]

1893. Good job.

Mormon women in Utah had the right to vote from the time the church was founded in 1830, and the only reason Utah isn't the first place in line for women's suffrage is because the federal government disenfranchised the women in 1887, and didn't get it back until Utah became a state in 1896.Utah women were promised that it would be given right back at the state constitutional convention. In fact, fifteen of the then 48 states, every single one of them west of the Mississippi, and every single one of them Republican. In fact, the Democrats, along with being incredibly racist (the KKK was the 'enforcement arm' of the Democratic Party) were dead set against women's suffrage.

My, how they have managed to whitewash their history. It's amazing.

ANYway, congratulations, and good for New Zealand. It took the USA a little longer to get suffrage to everybody, but we had to do it piecemeal and there were a few more obstacles to overcome.

Like the Democrats.

I just can't figure out or excuse the election of Trump. He bragged about assaulting women. Still many of my values are Republican

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for your post.

What is equality anyhow?

Sometimes its easier to see what inequality looks like. It is when one gender is denied the opportunities based on their gender. Another word is discrimination.

Most religions in a bygone era have discriminated against women, Christianity included.

Looking at this subject from the Biblical viewpoint (which is the only one that matters to me) I see that God did not separate men and women except to assign them different roles in the family and in the congregation. This whole equality thing just gets in the way of a smooth running of family and congregational cohesion IMO.

The different roles within the family are self-evident and to a large extent biologically determined. Only women can have children and breast feed. Beyond that women appear to have the capacity though socialisation and their make up to be more nurturing. That isn't to say men can't be excellent caregivers for children too. On the whole, women appear more adept.

1 Corinthians 11:3 is the way God set things up....
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

In this arrangement, even Christ does not please himself. This is the structure that works as long as people see that their role is an assignment from God. If the son of God knows his place then what have we got to complain about?

I think verses like this one from St Paul has provided a lot of justification for men dominating women over the years.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:33-34

In any business organization, we never see two bosses, but always one boss and several assistants who each play a role in the smooth running of the company. If the boss is away, the second-in-charge takes over and fills in as his representative. Too many bosses just doesn't work. If everyone knows their job and is happy to do it well, then there is no envy, jealousy or friction.

The decision making can have input from many advisors, but only one bears the responsibility for it. How many CEO have had to stand down because of bad decisions that were not all theirs?

Actually in many business organisations there are boards of directors that provide governance and CEOs who manage within the framework and parameters set down by the BOD. So a lot of authority resides with an institution rather than a single individual.

Likewise, a car has only one driver although there might be a navigator seated next to them. Two sets of instruments and two steering wheels would just cause no end of trouble. Instead of competing, I believe that God meant the roles of both males and females to be complementary. This is what God said when he created the woman as a "complement" of her mate. If each knows what is expected and is happy to stay in that assignment, then harmony will result.

If OTOH a person applies for a job that requires a certain level of education, then gender should not be a factor if either sex is capable of fulfilling the role. Equal pay should also apply. But I know for many men, taking orders from a woman just doesn't sit well. Its a left-over from the chauvinist era where men saw themselves more as dictators, than family heads. It was never supposed to be that way.

I agree with much of this.

 

[wellwisher]

If woman and men both want equality, what does equality mean when it comes to abortion? The current female thinking, with respect to abortion is, men and women are not equal, rather men and women have different roles and different needs.

 

[Shantanu]

Great progress has been made over the twentieth century towards establishing the full equality of men and women in most spheres of life where woman rightfully stand alongside men. My country, New Zealand was the first in the world to allow women to vote in national elections and we currently have our third female prime minister.

New Zealand women and the vote - Women and the vote | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

It hasn’t always been plain sailing and religious communities have both promoted and impeded progress.

To what extent has your faith tradition or worldview promoted equality?

Men and women are not equal: Some men are superior to some women and some women are superior to some men. Each man and each woman must be judged individually on his or her abilities and attainments and rewarded accordingly.

 

[Vinayaka]

People are not born equal. It applies to a lot more stuff than gender. An old man like me simply can't do the physical tasks a younger me could. Intelligence of all types (intellectual emotional, spiritual) varies from person to person. The situations people are born into (which country?) make for unequal possibilities. Poverty inhibits many. Opportunity isn't equally distributed on this planet.

Yes some religions preached a difference in gender roles more than others. Yes some religions stressed equality of the genders more than others.

But for me, it boils down to the individual and whether he/she treats all others with respect. A religion may well say to treat your spouse with respect, but behind closed doors, who knows? Same with working with people at work, in community, etc. How does the individual look at all the others? Does he/she see gender? Does he/she see race? Does he/she see age?

If you look into a person's eyes, and only the eyes, there is no clear gender, age, or race. You wouldn't know those parts. So the key, for the individual, in my view, is to see all people that way. Take gender out of it 95% of the time. Yes, there are certain roles and occupations more suited to gender, for logical reasons. But we need to dig deep to truly understand which of those reasons are valid.

 

[Audie]

Your mindset still needs some adjustment, I think.

When the balance is level women won't 'rightfully stand beside men'. Neither will 'men rightfully stand beside women'.

Men and women will just have self determination and equality.

Physically I am in no way the equal of men.
What do you mean when you say "equal"?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Great progress has been made over the twentieth century towards establishing the full equality of men and women in most spheres of life where woman rightfully stand alongside men. My country, New Zealand was the first in the world to allow women to vote in national elections and we currently have our third female prime minister.

New Zealand women and the vote - Women and the vote | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

It hasn’t always been plain sailing and religious communities have both promoted and impeded progress.

To what extent has your faith tradition or worldview promoted equality?

I would say Jesus Christ elevated the status of the marginalized tremendously, reproving others who refused to be egalitarian, and appearing first after His resurrection to women, and having and appointing women apostles!

 

[Scott C.]

Please don't get defensive. I am not attacking the Church. I was a member from Jan 31, 2012 to Nov 2, 2017. I know a fair bit about the doctrine. There were some men that tried to practice unrighteous dominion however. Women simply have a different function than men, and I accept that, though I still won't put up with a man trying to dominate me.

It is however a multilevel membership organization and I can accept that with some reluctance. My issue with the church is that the Leadership in SLC sought to punish me over a situation that was not my fault. Preemptively, I resigned before they got a chance to excommunicate me.

Don't pull the "I'm more expert than you" card. I know enough to report what happened to me. Their smugness about Deep Doctrine, and various thinly veiled insinuations were unacceptable.

We needn't speak further.

I don't know you at all and wasn't trying to be defensive. Things I post are for everyone to read, to see how I interpret my life in the Church. I'm sure you indeed know a lot about the Church and I'm sorry to hear you went through a bad experience. I was not intentionally pulling the "I'm more expert than you card." I don't understand your situation and would not try to comment on it. Can we be friends?

 

[Woberts]

[QUOTE="Scott C., post: 6115373, member: 14110" While there are different roles, they are equal partners with an equal say in marital and family decisions.[/QUOTE]
Separate but equal doctrine.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I don't know you at all and wasn't trying to be defensive. Things I post are for everyone to read, to see how I interpret my life in the Church. I'm sure you indeed know a lot about the Church and I'm sorry to hear you went through a bad experience. I was not intentionally pulling the "I'm more expert than you card." I don't understand your situation and would not try to comment on it. Can we be friends?

We can be tolerant and kind to each other. Trust will take longer. Thank you.

 

[oldbadger]

Physically I am in no way the equal of men.
What do you mean when you say "equal"?

Speak for yourself

If you want to know what I mean by equal, you will need to read the UK 2010 Equality Act.

 

[Audie]

Speak for yourself

If you want to know what I mean by equal, you will need to read the UK 2010 Equality Act.

Nah. Next time I visit your lil island, I will
just tell them what is what.

 

[oldbadger]

Nah. Next time I visit your lil island, I will
just tell them what is what.

That sure will be scary....................

 

[dianaiad]

Thanks for your post.

As Mormonism emerged at a similar time to the Baha’i Faith, albeit from vastly different cultures (Islamic Shi’a Persia compared to the Christian USA) its interesting to compare similarities and differences. There are certainly many positives in regards gender equality though there’s conflicting information.

Mormonism and women - Wikipedia

I didn’t realise how strongly many Mormons identity with the Republican Party in American politics. Baha’is avoid involvement in party politics. So while we will vote, we are careful to avoid being aligned to a particular political party.

U.S. religious groups and their political leanings

Interesting comments about race too. I was aware of the Mormons history in regards darker skinned people not having the same rights as those of European ancestry.

Mormons Once Aspired to Be a 'White and Delightsome' People

Pretty good articles. I would submit a few comments. First, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Most Mormons (American ones...most Mormons are NOT Americans) lean towards the Republicans. That didn't used to be true, actually. Idaho and Utah were fairly staunchly Democratic during the thirties, WWII and the fifties...right up through the sixties. The erosion to the right began with the Democrat Party's race problems of the time (they were the ones who were responsible for segregation and Jim Crow Laws, as it happens, and Mormons were not known as slave owners, etc., though they, like the rest of the nation, participated in the national 'this is the way it is' culture) . However, when the west started getting clobbered by the Democrats, first with Johnson and what he did with Social Security, then Clinton doing his land grab of so much of Utah, Everybody around, including the MOrmons, decided that the Democrats did not have their best interests at heart. They still don't.

As for the 'white and delightsome'....gaaaahhhhh.

Joseph Smith wrote 'pure and delightsome,' not 'white and delightsome.' It was a translation goof and WE CAN PROVE THAT. Much of that 'white and delightsome' claptrap comes from anti-Mormon sites and sources.

HAS the church been racist? Yes.
Have we fixed it considerably easier and with less hoorah than anybody else? Again, yes.

Sheesh.

 

[dianaiad]

I just can't figure out or excuse the election of Trump. He bragged about assaulting women. Still many of my values are Republican

Well, Mormons in general didn't like Trump much either. (shrug) He was just better than Clinton. You know, the woman who vilified Clinton's victims and called the discovery of his own rape and sexual harassment "a vast right wing conspiracy?"

 

[Ellen Brown]

Pretty good articles. I would submit a few comments. First, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Most Mormons (American ones...most Mormons are NOT Americans) lean towards the Republicans. That didn't used to be true, actually. Idaho and Utah were fairly staunchly Democratic during the thirties, WWII and the fifties...right up through the sixties. The erosion to the right began with the Democrat Party's race problems of the time (they were the ones who were responsible for segregation and Jim Crow Laws, as it happens, and Mormons were not known as slave owners, etc., though they, like the rest of the nation, participated in the national 'this is the way it is' culture) . However, when the west started getting clobbered by the Democrats, first with Johnson and what he did with Social Security, then Clinton doing his land grab of so much of Utah, Everybody around, including the MOrmons, decided that the Democrats did not have their best interests at heart. They still don't.

As for the 'white and delightsome'....gaaaahhhhh.

Joseph Smith wrote 'pure and delightsome,' not 'white and delightsome.' It was a translation goof and WE CAN PROVE THAT. Much of that 'white and delightsome' claptrap comes from anti-Mormon sites and sources.

HAS the church been racist? Yes.
Have we fixed it considerably easier and with less hoorah than anybody else? Again, yes.

Sheesh.

My own experience has led me to believe that terms like Republican and Democrat are perhaps meaningless because what they believe seems to shift. I was greatly surprised to find out that Democrats used the KKK in the distant past as their mouthpiece. Most of the time politics mystify me. Today Republicans seem to be grumpy and hatefully punitive, while Democrats seem to be all about LGBT rights, favoring abortion, and generally around the bend.

 

[Audie]

That sure will be scary....................
View attachment 29234

I may be that short, but I do not have curly hair.