The Equality of Men and Women

[Scott C.]

Separate but equal doctrine.

Separate but equal was an excuse for racial segregation and a poor comparison to what I said. There is no separation between men and women. They are unified, together, a team, equal value, differing roles, anything but separated.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Well, Mormons in general didn't like Trump much either. (shrug) He was just better than Clinton. You know, the woman who vilified Clinton's victims and called the discovery of his own rape and sexual harassment "a vast right wing conspiracy?"

I intended to vote for Bernie, but he got ambushed by Clinton, in what I believe was illegal activity. I was STILL going to write him in until I found out that he did not put his name on the 'write in" ballot. I ended up voting for Clinton but in a state of dismay. Having spent my own time in the hands of assaultive and molesting males there was no chance that I would vote for Trump, none at all. Worse yet, he looks and acts like him.

It is unimaginable that our political system has gotten in this state. When I was being taught in 2011, I heard "Mormons will save the constitution" a lot...

 

[Ellen Brown]

Separate but equal was an excuse for racial segregation and a poor comparison to what I said. There is no separation between men and women. They are unified, together, a team, equal value, differing roles, anything but separated.

We may differ because I think that Gen. 3:16 is absolutely true, but those who are taught to be Godly leaders will lead, not enslave. Practically speaking, women are better suited for running the house. While men are the protectors. There are all sorts of traits that are rooted in ancient Anthropology and I have no quarrel with that. I think the radical feminists have done a lot of damage. Humanity truly is fallen.

 

[dianaiad]

I intended to vote for Bernie, but he got ambushed by Clinton, in what I believe was illegal activity. I was STILL going to write him in until I found out that he did not put his name on the 'write in" ballot. I ended up voting for Clinton but in a state of dismay. Having spent my own time in the hands of assaultive and molesting males there was no chance that I would vote for Trump, none at all. Worse yet, he looks and acts like him.

It is unimaginable that our political system has gotten in this state. When I was being taught in 2011, I heard "Mormons will save the constitution" a lot...

Actually, that saying goes 'IF the constitution will can be saved, the elders will do it."

That's a problem we have, we Mormon types. Sometimes I have to wonder WHY we are the way we are, considering the way the USA treated us from the beginning right through to the middle of the twentieth century, but we are probably the most patriotic group in the nation, and we put the constitution right up beside the scriptures as something worth preserving.

No, we don't think that the constitution is scripture, but we are aware that as hard a time as we've had WITH it, we would have been impossible without it.

As for Clinton...that woman was worse, I believe, than her husband. She supported him, attacked his victims, and proved that she didn't give two hoots for the things you and I care about. She cared only about getting elected. Very Machiavelian of her...very...Borgia like. Trump is....like the rest of us. Not perfect by any means; awkward, NOT a politician, bumbling in those circles. A man who may or may not have misused his power with women, who brags like a locker room idiot, but who does what he says he'll do.

And that is why I voted for him. Well, that and he wasn't Clinton.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If woman and men both want equality, what does equality mean when it comes to abortion? The current female thinking, with respect to abortion is, men and women are not equal, rather men and women have different roles and different needs.

The argument for equality needs to acknowledge different roles. In other words equality isn’t sameness but sees the status of both men and women being equal along with recognition of complimentary functions in some areas such as reproductive and care of young children.

IMHO the abortion issue isn’t so much about the equality of men and women but respect for the sanctity of human life and God’s laws. A human life begins at conception and an unborn child is not part of a woman’s body in the same manner as an unwanted growth or tumour.

 

[Katzpur]

As a man who was born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), I can honestly say that perhaps the strongest, most frequent, and most seriously treated subject that I have been taught over the years is that men are not superior to women, the abuse of a spouse is one of the ugliest sins on earth, sexual predation or taking sexual or other advantage of a woman or girl is one of the greatest abominations around. These abuses render a man's priesthood "authority" null and void and leave him in great need of repentance.But yes, in my church there is a role distinction. Men hold the priesthood where women do not. Women speak, teach, and pray in church and lead many things. But ultimately a man, the Bishop runs the local congregation. Women sit in council with the highest leaders of the Church, the Apostles and the First Presidency. But yes, ultimately it's a man with the priesthood who runs the Church. But women have a lot of influence and are taken seriously in their council. So, I believe a loving God established a plan with different roles for men and women. But, the marriage relationship is not the same as in the church. There is no hierarchy at home between man and woman. While there are different roles, they are equal partners with an equal say in marital and family decisions. The husband can't pull rank.

Thank you, Scott, for that excellent response. For anyone who may be interested, I concur 100% with everything Scott has said.

 

[Katzpur]

Pretty good articles. I would submit a few comments. First, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Most Mormons (American ones...most Mormons are NOT Americans) lean towards the Republicans. That didn't used to be true, actually. Idaho and Utah were fairly staunchly Democratic during the thirties, WWII and the fifties...right up through the sixties. The erosion to the right began with the Democrat Party's race problems of the time (they were the ones who were responsible for segregation and Jim Crow Laws, as it happens, and Mormons were not known as slave owners, etc., though they, like the rest of the nation, participated in the national 'this is the way it is' culture) . However, when the west started getting clobbered by the Democrats, first with Johnson and what he did with Social Security, then Clinton doing his land grab of so much of Utah, Everybody around, including the MOrmons, decided that the Democrats did not have their best interests at heart. They still don't.

I've got to disagree with the part of your post I put in boldface, dianaiad. A thumbs up for the rest of your post, though.

 

[Katzpur]

As for Clinton...that woman was worse, I believe, than her husband. She supported him, attacked his victims, and proved that she didn't give two hoots for the things you and I care about. She cared only about getting elected. Very Machiavelian of her...very...Borgia like. Trump is....like the rest of us. Not perfect by any means; awkward, NOT a politician, bumbling in those circles. A man who may or may not have misused his power with women, who brags like a locker room idiot, but who does what he says he'll do.

And that is why I voted for him. Well, that and he wasn't Clinton.

Well, they were probably just about the two worst possible candidates the country could have possibly found to run.

 

[dianaiad]

I've got to disagree with the part of your post I put in boldface, dianaiad. A thumbs up for the rest of your post, though.

SEE????

Not all Mormons are Republicans!

 

[dianaiad]

Well, they were probably just about the two worst possible candidates the country could have possibly found to run.

I can't really disagree with that, either.

 

[Katzpur]

We can be tolerant and kind to each other. Trust will take longer. Thank you.

Just a heads up, Ellen. If you can trust any Mormon man, it will be Scott.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Pretty good articles. I would submit a few comments. First, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Most Mormons (American ones...most Mormons are NOT Americans) lean towards the Republicans. That didn't used to be true, actually. Idaho and Utah were fairly staunchly Democratic during the thirties, WWII and the fifties...right up through the sixties. The erosion to the right began with the Democrat Party's race problems of the time (they were the ones who were responsible for segregation and Jim Crow Laws, as it happens, and Mormons were not known as slave owners, etc., though they, like the rest of the nation, participated in the national 'this is the way it is' culture) . However, when the west started getting clobbered by the Democrats, first with Johnson and what he did with Social Security, then Clinton doing his land grab of so much of Utah, Everybody around, including the MOrmons, decided that the Democrats did not have their best interests at heart. They still don't.

As for the 'white and delightsome'....gaaaahhhhh.

Joseph Smith wrote 'pure and delightsome,' not 'white and delightsome.' It was a translation goof and WE CAN PROVE THAT. Much of that 'white and delightsome' claptrap comes from anti-Mormon sites and sources.

HAS the church been racist? Yes.
Have we fixed it considerably easier and with less hoorah than anybody else? Again, yes.

Sheesh.

I have never lived in the USA and though interested in your country's history and politics, as a Baha'i do not have any political affiliations. I'm aware that your previous president Barack Obama was the first with African American ancestory. He was a democrat. I understand that the Democrats are much more diverse than the Republicans in regards gender and race.

Photo of new House members shows big gap in diversity between parties

The proportion of white men within the Democratic caucus is set to drop from 41% to 38% next year, while the same percentage is set to rise among Republicans from 86% to 90%.

Thank you for acknowledging your faith's history of racism. I've talked previous to members of your congregaion who denied it, were unaware of it or hugely offended when I raised the issue.

In regards the proportion of membership of Mormon's who are American, 58% of your population base are from North America with about 41% from the USA.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints membership statistics - Wikipedia

So while spread across the planet there's a definite concentration within North America and the USA.

Back to the OP question. What proportion of women makes up the leadership of your church?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Just a heads up, Ellen. If you can trust any Mormon man, it will be Scott.

Thank you. My emotions are off right now. I'm taking an awful antibiotic for a UTI, and I had a tooth extracted two weeks ago, and that feels like wwIII was fought there. I'm cranky and tearful, and I'm sorry.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Great progress has been made over the twentieth century towards establishing the full equality of men and women in most spheres of life where woman rightfully stand alongside men. My country, New Zealand was the first in the world to allow women to vote in national elections and we currently have our third female prime minister.

New Zealand women and the vote - Women and the vote | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

It hasn’t always been plain sailing and religious communities have both promoted and impeded progress.

To what extent has your faith tradition or worldview promoted equality?

I believe in complementarianism. Women and man are equally valuable. All believers are priests to God in the priesthood of believers but I do believe in the church male pastors and male elders is normative as is male servant headship in marriage. I could vote for a woman president or vice president and do not have a problem with women as leaders in politics or business.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I have never lived in the USA and though interested in your country's history and politics, as a Baha'i do not have any political affiliations. I'm aware that your previous president Barack Obama was the first with African American ancestory. He was a democrat. I understand that the Democrats are much more diverse than the Republicans in regards gender and race.

Photo of new House members shows big gap in diversity between parties

The proportion of white men within the Democratic caucus is set to drop from 41% to 38% next year, while the same percentage is set to rise among Republicans from 86% to 90%.

Thank you for acknowledging your faith's history of racism. I've talked previous to members of your congregaion who denied it, were unaware of it or hugely offended when I raised the issue.

In regards the proportion of membership of Mormon's who are American, 58% of your population base are from North America with about 41% from the USA.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints membership statistics - Wikipedia

So while spread across the planet there's a definite concentration within North America and the USA.

Back to the OP question. What proportion of women makes up the leadership of your church?

I also like the laver made from women's mirrors in the Torah
A Copper Laver Made from Women’s Mirrors - TheTorah.com

It seems women were mentioned in significant places in the Bible.
The egyptian women midwives who saved the Jewish baby boys,
the daughters of Zelophehad who successfully argued case law in the Torah,
some women prophets, the first witnesses to the resurrection and others

Cutest name is Job's youngest daughter 'little makeup box' (ok horn of jewels... same thing )

Some quotes form Proverbs 31
She dresses herself5 with strength and makes her arms strong.
She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I also like the laver made from women's mirrors in the Torah
A Copper Laver Made from Women’s Mirrors - TheTorah.com

It seems women were mentioned in significant places in the Bible.
The egyptian women midwives who saved the Jewish baby boys,
the daughters of Zelophehad who successfully argued case law in the Torah,
some women prophets, the first witnesses to the resurrection and others

Cutest name is Job's youngest daughter 'little makeup box' (ok horn of jewels... same thing )

Some quotes form Proverbs 31
She dresses herself5 with strength and makes her arms strong.
She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

As a Baha’i I’m good with both the Torah (and the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh) and the Gospels (along with the rest of the New Testament) reflecting God’s Revelation to humanity through Moses and Christ. In the past man has dominated women by virtue of his more forceful and aggressive qualities of both mind and body. In this age the balance has shifted and the feminine ideals such as intuition, service and loving kindness are ascendant. This age shall be more permeated with such qualities.

So Christianity is a diverse religion with many denominations and sects. Where do you sit on the spectrum and how does the leadership of your church reflect the equality of men and women?

 

[Scott C.]

Just a heads up, Ellen. If you can trust any Mormon man, it will be Scott.

Thank you!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They are promoting rights and protections for sex workers, not banning them all together. Your world isn’t ending after all.

Rights and protections for a job which is inherently degrading to women. Riiight.

 

[Woberts]

Separate but equal was an excuse for racial segregation and a poor comparison to what I said. There is no separation between men and women. They are unified, together, a team, equal value, differing roles, anything but separated.

Same principle, same result on a different discriminatory axis.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Rights and protections for a job which is inherently degrading to women. Riiight.

It is degrading work for anyone involved, of course. New Zealand decriminalised prostitution in 2003. The move is not without controversy.

Prostitution is not a job. The inside of a woman’s body is not a workplace | Julie Bindel