The Ethics of Eating Meat

[Erebus]

So, in essence, are you saying that including meat in the diet is cheaper than a vegetarian diet?

Ultimately, yes. It's not just the cost of the product itself though, availability is also a major factor.

For the record, I do think that the conditions meat animals are raised in are abominable and am pretty sympathetic towards vegetarians. I've tried it in the past but it just wasn't sustainable.

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm not saying it's extreme in and of itself. Just on the opposite end of the spectrum from a carnivorous diet. There are many diets that fall between these; some that include meat and others that do not. There are those that include animal products, but do not include meat.

There seem more sub-genres than in heavy metal! Perhaps we should all just be called flexitarian!

 

[SalixIncendium]

You might scare yourself if you were to sit down and try to count the number of things you "try not to think about" to get through any given day.

Please let me be clear on two things...

First, I don't 'try.' I do or I do not. Starting with the intent to try only opens a door to failure. I do my best to succeed and anything I set out to do. Do I fail? Sure, but it's not because I tried. It's because I did and was confronted with obstacles that prevented my success.

Second, I have nothing to be scared of because I don't do avoidance coping. I'm not wired like that. Not thinking about things doesn't make them go away.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was a much stronger vegetarian a few years back but I'm cheating more lately. One thing that caught my attention is that there is currently not enough arable land at this time for the entire world to be vegans. The oceans and animal products are still needed to cover significant shares of human calorie consumption at this time.

Even if true, the problem isn't enuf land....it's too many people.
I say....
Eating meat is fine & dandy.
But avoid cruelty in raising & slaughtering.

 

[Left Coast]

Ultimately, yes. It's not just the cost of the product itself though, availability is also a major factor.

For the record, I do think that the conditions meat animals are raised in are abominable and am pretty sympathetic towards vegetarians. I've tried it in the past but it just wasn't sustainable.

I sympathize with this. Perhaps the answer for someone in your position is to just eat less meat, as much as is feasible, without cutting it out completely?

 

[Erebus]

I sympathize with this. Perhaps the answer for someone in your position is to just eat less meat, as much as is feasible, without cutting it out completely?

Yep, you're spot on there

 

[Left Coast]

@Left Coast
Apparently persuasion is more likely appealing to emotion than facts. So if you wish to, watch some videos on youtube. You know the ones; the propaganda, the rogue companies, the practices that aren't used in my country, the out of date ones.

By way of example I used to think eggs were OK, as long as the hens were "free range" (which turns out to be a bad joke). Then I found out the egg laying breeds are not the same as the chicken meat ones. So what happens to the male chicks in the egg industry? Here's a video showing one of the two methods. It's quicker than gassing, so maybe this is the humane, ethical option.

I didn't watch the particular video you uploaded, but I think I've seen similar things. The way we treat animals in these industries is disturbing. "Free range" just means they're not put in cages; which, technically, they aren't. As I understand it, they're instead raised in large open floor barns where they're packed in like sardines. Not much better than a cage, frankly.

That said, I wouldn't have a problem eating eggs from chickens raised in people's backyards, etc. in conditions that are actually humane and they're not killed.

 

[Secret Chief]

Even if true, the problem isn't enuf land....it's too many people.
I say....
Eating meat is fine & dandy.
But avoid cruelty in raising & slaughtering.

"Too many people" is a major reason for the global industry's cruelty.

 

[Secret Chief]

I didn't watch the particular video you uploaded, but I think I've seen similar things. The way we treat animals in these industries is disturbing. "Free range" just means they're not put in cages; which, technically, they aren't. As I understand it, they're instead raised in large open floor barns where they're packed in like sardines. Not much better than a cage, frankly.

That said, I wouldn't have a problem eating eggs from chickens raised in people's backyards, etc. in conditions that are actually humane and they're not killed.

Yes "free range" is more marketing than reality.

In the summer months we have a few eggs from a friend who has hens as pets (?!) in her garden. Personally I wouldn't but my partner is keen.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Please let me be clear on two things...

First, I don't 'try.' I do or I do not. Starting with the intent to try only opens a door to failure. I do my best to succeed and anything I set out to do. Do I fail? Sure, but it's not because I tried. It's because I did and was confronted with obstacles that prevented my success.

Second, I have nothing to be scared of because I don't do avoidance coping. I'm not wired like that. Not thinking about things doesn't make them go away.

Uh-huh.

 

[Mindmaster]

So killing animals is acceptable because of the collateral damage caused by being alive? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay to kill humans whose population has outgrown food resources so others can eat?

Yes, and we can stop right before the killing of our own species since that's just absurdity in the context of our subject. We are no where near outgrowing our food capacity ever and never will be due to the birth regulation baked into our DNA. Fertility rates decline naturally without intervention when there are "too many folks" and for some reason they go right back up when their aren't enough.

Not necessarily. Food can easily be harvested from plants without killing the plant. Does picking fruits kill the plant? Does cutting lettuce (when done properly) kill the plant?

Typically, the only plants that are killed are root vegetables.

Fruits are the plants children, effectively. If I cut off your arm and eat it am I harming you? Why is it different for lettuce? It's impossible to live without killing things mind you -- it's just the way natural order is and I have no idea that it's wrong or whatever. It can be done in the least cruel of ways if that is a concern. I just don't view life with the concept that you aren't killing or harming anything by preferring plant based diets -- that's absolutely absurd. We could argue that morally picking plants for your diet is worse because they're unable to escape you or defend themselves.

 

[George-ananda]

Going vegan is the opposite extreme. I think a vegetarian diet is quite sustainable.

But what is the difference beyond dairy? And what is the fate of male bulls and dairy cows after their productive years?

 

[Secret Chief]

We are no where near outgrowing our food capacity ever and never will be due to the birth regulation baked into our DNA. Fertility rates decline naturally without intervention when there are "too many folks" and for some reason they go right back up when their aren't enough.

The world population is burgeoning, long since past sustainability on a meat-based diet.

"Most people in the world live in poverty.
-------
Global poverty is one of the very worst problems that the world faces today. The poorest in the world are often hungry, have much less access to education, regularly have no light at night, and suffer from much poorer health. To make progress against poverty is therefore one of the most urgent global goals."

- Global Extreme Poverty

It's impossible to live without killing things mind you -- it's just the way natural order is and I have no idea that it's wrong or whatever.

It is impossible. But each of us could minimise it, if we tried. Because we can eat meat doesn't mean that we should, does it? Do you not have an opinion on the ethics of meat eating?

 

[Vinayaka]

Be careful, this'll end up with carrots feel pain.

What? Carrots feel pain? lol

 

[Secret Chief]

What? Carrots feel pain? lol

Don't lol, I did read that argument once.

 

[Vinayaka]

Don't lol, I did read that argument once.

Yes, so have I. Far more than once. I've been asked 'Where do you get your protein?" probably close to 50 times for real. I've also been accused of cheating on my vegetarian diet, else I would be dead.

Now, after 50 years, I do find those arguments rather funny. Thus the lol.

 

[Left Coast]

Yes, and we can stop right before the killing of our own species since that's just absurdity in the context of our subject. We are no where near outgrowing our food capacity ever and never will be due to the birth regulation baked into our DNA. Fertility rates decline naturally without intervention when there are "too many folks" and for some reason they go right back up when their aren't enough.



Fruits are the plants children, effectively. If I cut off your arm and eat it am I harming you? Why is it different for lettuce? It's impossible to live without killing things mind you -- it's just the way natural order is and I have no idea that it's wrong or whatever. It can be done in the least cruel of ways if that is a concern. I just don't view life with the concept that you aren't killing or harming anything by preferring plant based diets -- that's absolutely absurd. We could argue that morally picking plants for your diet is worse because they're unable to escape you or defend themselves.

Plants have no consciousness, no ability to feel pain. Killing them is qualitatively different than killing something with a brain.

 

[Mindmaster]

It is impossible. But each of us could minimise it, if we tried. Because we can eat meat doesn't mean that we should, does it? Do you not have an opinion on the ethics of meat eating?

Do you have an ethical dilemma when you have a bowel movement? It's on that level for me. You don't like meat? Don't eat it. But, biologically we're fully capable of eating nearly anything put in front of us. It's also easier to get complete nutrition even you eat a smaller amount. A full plant based diet leaves you having to work a great deal on making sure you obtaining healthy nutrition -- it's not impossible, but I don't work to eat, I eat to work.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Too many people" is a major reason for the global industry's cruelty.

I don't think so.
It's about keeping costs down.

 

[Secret Chief]

Do you have an ethical dilemma when you have a bowel movement?

No, but then I consider that a false equivalence. There are choices at one orifice, not the other.

You don't like meat? Don't eat it.

I liked it until I read about what it involved - industry practices, the suffering, the health aspect.

But, biologically we're fully capable of eating nearly anything put in front of us.

We are. But we make choices on various criteria. Biologically we could just eat pork chops but so what. We apply our intelligence in making our choices. Informed decisions can be made.

It's also easier to get complete nutrition even you eat a smaller amount. A full plant based diet leaves you having to work a great deal on making sure you obtaining healthy nutrition

No it doesn't. I make the same amount of effort to make sure I have a healthy diet as someone who eats meat might do. I just select different sources than a meat eater. In fact meat eaters are more prone to obesity, heart disease and cancer than those following a non-meat diet. Sports people wouldn't follow non-meat diets if it impacted on their performance.