The Evolution Chamber: Piltdown Man

[Earthling]

Humans are an ape in the same way that a chihuahua is a dog.

If a Chihuahua mates with another dog the result is a dog. And if a human mates with an ape?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If a Chihuahua mates with another dog the result is a dog. And if a human mates with an ape?

Does keeping yourself blind make you feel safer?

 

[SomeRandom]

If a Chihuahua mates with another dog the result is a dog. And if a human mates with an ape?

Humans are apes, in the same sense as dogs are still wolves. Cross mating within subspecies are usually more successful than cross species mating (see ligers, hinnies or mules.) Although I suppose ring species are a thing.
Maybe think of it like a tree? The further the branch grows away from it's brethren, the harder it is for those two branches to procreate successfully (as in have fertile offspring.)
Course I ain't a Biologist. Just saying, even I can tell your demands are unreasonable.

 

[Polymath257]

I have previously posted this in other contexts, but the analysis is mine:

1) Are you made of complex cells with internal organelles? If so, you are a eucaryote.

2) Do your cells have membranes made of lipids rather than walls made from glucosides and are they surrounded by an extracellular matrix composed of collagen and glycoproteins? Then you are an Animal.

3) During embryo development, does the blastopore (the first opening) become the anus? Then you are a Deuterostome.

4) Do you have a head, backbone, brain, red blood cells, and kidneys? Then you are a Vertebrate.

5) Are air-breathing, have hair, three ear bones, sweat glands, the ability to regulate internal temperature and specialized teeth? Then you are a Mammal.

6) Do you lack an epi-pubic bone and do females like you have a uterus which produces a placenta during pregnancy? Then you are a placental Mammal.

7) Do you have a collar bone, opposable fingers, a flat nail on fingers and toes, eye sockets made from bone, stereoscopic vision, an enlarged cerebral cortex? Then you are a Primate.

8) Do you have a narrow nose and downward pointed nostrils, broad rib cage, a fused frontal bone, convoluted cerebral hemispheres, a large brain for his size of mammal, color vision, a lack of tail, and a lack of cheek pouches? Then you are an Ape.

So, yes, if you are human, then you *are* an ape.

 

[Polymath257]

If a Chihuahua mates with another dog the result is a dog. And if a human mates with an ape?

You won't get lions and housecats to mate either, but they are both felids.

 

[Earthling]

I have previously posted this in other contexts, but the analysis is mine:

1) Are you made of complex cells with internal organelles? If so, you are a eucaryote.

2) Do your cells have membranes made of lipids rather than walls made from glucosides and are they surrounded by an extracellular matrix composed of collagen and glycoproteins? Then you are an Animal.

3) During embryo development, does the blastopore (the first opening) become the anus? Then you are a Deuterostome.

4) Do you have a head, backbone, brain, red blood cells, and kidneys? Then you are a Vertebrate.

5) Are air-breathing, have hair, three ear bones, sweat glands, the ability to regulate internal temperature and specialized teeth? Then you are a Mammal.

6) Do you lack an epi-pubic bone and do females like you have a uterus which produces a placenta during pregnancy? Then you are a placental Mammal.

7) Do you have a collar bone, opposable fingers, a flat nail on fingers and toes, eye sockets made from bone, stereoscopic vision, an enlarged cerebral cortex? Then you are a Primate.

8) Do you have a narrow nose and downward pointed nostrils, broad rib cage, a fused frontal bone, convoluted cerebral hemispheres, a large brain for his size of mammal, color vision, a lack of tail, and a lack of cheek pouches? Then you are an Ape.

So, yes, if you are human, then you *are* an ape.

You know how when a believer tells you that you are a product of sin, that you were created and you say that you are not, because all of that stuff is made up. Well, I'm not an ape. All that stuff is made up.

I have decided not to discuss the subject of science and evolution anymore. It's a waste of time. It's all made up.

 

[sayak83]

1. Because something taught as fact for 40 years doesn't make it so.
2. People don't like to be criticized, especially when the real heart of the discussion is a class struggle of sorts, one world view trying to silence another world view.
3. Which is more important? To learn or do science or argue about mythology?
4. Science and theology have the same possibilities of corruption. Most of these complaints are human in nature rather than exclusive to either of the opposing paradigms.

Evolution Chamber was inspired by the Prometheus & Bob clip of the same title which I posted in another thread in promise of this one. For me, knowing there are so many science minded atheists who don't want to discuss religion I often throw a proverbial bone, allowing them, at least the opportunity to take or defend criticisms and open the opportunity for them to do what I'm asking you to do.

Teach me and present your subject as honestly and fairly as I have my own.

Would you be interested in discussing human evolution. I linked you to my post on the subject. Read it and comment.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You know how when a believer tells you that you are a product of sin, that you were created and you say that you are not, because all of that stuff is made up. Well, I'm not an ape. All that stuff is made up.

I have decided not to discuss the subject of science and evolution anymore. It's a waste of time. It's all made up.

There is overwhelming evidence that you are an ape. Evidence for your God appears to be lacking. Getting creationists to be honest about evidence is sadly more difficult than pulling teeth.

 

[sayak83]

It doesn't have to be deliberate. More often than not something is presented as fact when it's not. It's a control device, sure, but it doesn't have to be deliberate.



If you read the OP is says simply, here is an historical case of Evolution being presented for 40 years and then turning out to be a fake. Why object to it? It may be true but people object to criticism, especially when it is perceived as an attack on a world view.



If I were not a Bible believer but a "believer" for a lack of a better term, of Evolution and had presented the OP would there be a conflict in my having presented the topic? It doesn't matter whether it were Piltdown or any other.



If I say to you the soul is immortal, most scholars of theology will agree, due to tradition. If you read Ezekiel 18:4 it clearly states the soul is mortal. If you teach Evolution as fact it becomes a tradition which scholars adhere dogmatically to. If you overlook the correction you are enforcing a tradition which negates all methodology of true science while still presenting it as the effective methodology which in truth has been negated.



Well, first of all science can't test the supernatural. Now, squid and whales used to be thought of as supernatural, like mermaids still are. That whales and giant squid were once thought of as supernatural was completely reasonable because they couldn't easily get to them. Science can't test what it can't get to. It's impractical to suggest that because they used to think whales were supernatural then perhaps mermaids aren't. Simply by definition of supernatural, or the historical presentation of the mermaid in folklore etc.

No one here wants to teach me Evolution. They want for me to accept it or shut up and go away. You have to ask yourself why so many science minded atheist post on religious forums. I certainly wouldn't go to a science forum and argue about religion. It's a world view - science minded atheists against religion. I myself dislike organized religion, but I would much rather teach the Bible. Whenever I try to teach the Bible I'm attacked by science minded atheists. Why are they arguing with me instead of learning or doing science? Why do I have to justify my position on science, and especially Evolution in order to teach the Bible on a religious forum? Because the opposing world view can't tolerate disagreement with something presented as fact that will be presented in some other "factual" presentation in the near future.

Full circle.

I can teach you evolutionary biology if you are interested.

 

[gnostic]

Humans are apes, in the same sense as dogs are still wolves. Cross mating within subspecies are usually more successful than cross species mating (see ligers, hinnies or mules.) Although I suppose ring species are a thing.
Maybe think of it like a tree? The further the branch grows away from it's brethren, the harder it is for those two branches to procreate successfully (as in have fertile offspring.)
Course I ain't a Biologist. Just saying, even I can tell your demands are unreasonable.

Yes I told him the same thing.

A) he doesn’t understand the concept of empirical evidences,
B) he doesn’t understand the concept of evolution,
C) he doesn’t understand the evidences backing evolution,
D) he has unrealistic expectations from evolution.
E) he will never understand why his stubbornness will keep him ignorant.

 

[siti]

I love the old creationist standards - its almost like a soccer fans' chant - "Piltdown man, Piltdown man, Piltdown man......Piltdown man, Piltdown man, Piltdown maa-an..." - to the tune of stars and stripes forever...

Difficult to bear, isn't it?

Apparently so...

I have decided not to discuss the subject of science and evolution anymore.

PS - I really don't take any pleasure in your submission - I was rather hoping you might learn something - oh well, perhaps another time.

PPS - Just one last tip from an erstwhile creationist - you can't refute what you don't understand and when you do understand it, you can't refute it - take it slowly, read about the subject, examine the evidence and let your intellect go where the evidence leads.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them" ~ Gallileo

 

[Earthling]

I can teach you evolutionary biology if you are interested.

No, thanks. Not interested anymore. Apes are humans.

Stupid.

 

[gnostic]

You know how when a believer tells you that you are a product of sin, that you were created and you say that you are not, because all of that stuff is made up. Well, I'm not an ape. All that stuff is made up.

I have decided not to discuss the subject of science and evolution anymore. It's a waste of time. It's all made up.

You started this thread to expose the fraud in evolution, thinking one fraud back in the early 1910s, will negate all other evidences discovered.

They don’t because science don’t work that way.

Each evidence is examined and analysed on its own merits, as well cross-examined and analysed with other evidences, as comparison purposes, and for verification.

One hoax don’t make other evidences inadmissible. You clearly don’t understand how science work, you don’t how scientific method works, and you don’t have understanding how evidences are examined.

Now you bringing up sins.

What does that have anything to do about evolution?

Evolution is all about biology, not morality or salvation of your soul. Evolution is not about religion or god.

It’s simply ludicrous that you tripping yourself and think you haven’t fallen and buried your head in the sand.

 

[sayak83]

No, thanks. Not interested anymore. Apes are humans.

Stupid.

Humans are apes. Just as chimpanzee, gorilla and orangutan are also apes. This is not complicated. We are mammals as well, along with dogs, cats, cows etc. Then what is so difficult about us being apes?

Of course, in Hinduism, as living things are God in essence, all having a soul and a Self that is identical with Brahman. Something is seriously wrong with Abrahamic religions that find such concepts repugnant somehow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Humans are apes. Just as chimpanzee, gorilla and orangutan are also apes. This is not complicated. We are mammals as well, along with dogs, cats, cows etc. Then what is so difficult about us being apes?

Of course, in Hinduism, as living things are God in essence, all having a soul and a Self that is identical with Brahman. Something is seriously wrong with Abrahamic religions that find such concepts repugnant somehow.

For some odd reason creationists only deny that we are in the ape clade. The will admit that we are mammals, which is even more, tetrapods (if they understand the term), vertebrates, chordates, and even eukaryotes.

Creationists am strange

 

[siti]

The will admit that we are mammals

well there are some things you just can't manage without I suppose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

well there are some things you just can't manage without I suppose.

I can't blame them. I am a big fan myself.

 

[SomeRandom]

No, thanks. Not interested anymore. Apes are humans.

Stupid.

Yes, humans are apes. I'm not sure what is hard about this concept. Pretty sure I covered this like back in grade 8 Biology class. Even kids documentaries would mention this offhandedly nowadays.
Also why do you insist on refusing to learn? That is the height of arrogance and, to be frank, quite childish. God gave you a brain and you turn your back on that gift?

 

[exchemist]

Nevermind.

Well that attempt at a discussion didn't last long. It looks to me as if you have a general rather vague complaint about the vigour with which evolution is defended, and that Piltdown Man is neither here nor there.

I would in fact agree that Piltdown Man is irrelevant. A deliberate fraud that was in due course exposed by the working of the scientific method does not seem to prove anything, except that science is capable of correcting errors.

I notice you complain that nobody will teach you evolution. There is a thread on this and lots of people who are more than willing to teach you, if you are prepared to listen in good faith. The hostility you encounter arises because you yourself have put your good faith in doubt.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, thanks. Not interested anymore. Apes are humans.

Stupid.

Wow. Are you deliberately not understanding what is being explained to you?