The evolution of the eye

[ChristineM]

Most Christians believe that since it is obvious that God created, no further proof is necessary.

Not so.... On 2 counts
1 Maybe around 50% in the USA but the USA only accounts for 5% of the world population and around 8% of Christians
2 why is it obvious god dun it when there is no evidence of god while evidence exists for natural cause?

 

[DavidFirth]

Who has seen the earth orbit the sun?

Why do you think I'm an atheist?

Would scientists seeing and documenting a unicellular population evolving into multicelluar organisms be "proof" of macroevolution?

Have a good day, I'm done here.

 

[DavidFirth]

Not so.... On 2 counts
1 Maybe around 50% in the USA but the USA only accounts for 5% of the world population and around 8% of Christians
2 why is it obvious god dun it when there is no evidence of god while evidence exists for natural cause?

The last poll I heard of said that 70% of Americans believe in God.

Well, it's obvious to me.

Have a good day.

 

[Jose Fly]

Have a good day, I'm done here.

Hilarious.

 

[ChristineM]

The last poll I heard of said that 70% of Americans believe in God.

Well, it's obvious to me.

Have a good day.

Nah, that's 70% Christian. Not all of them are willing to damn their future, future of their children and their country because of a bronze age myth. Some are more intelligent than that but live in areas where not conforming gets you dead.

I usually do

 

[ChristineM]

Hilarious.

Once again the creationist argument is shown for what it is.

 

[omega2xx]

Genetically impossible?
The evolution of whales

Im thinking you need to inform the biologists and geneticists at berkeley university

Cut and past the evidence they offer. I guarantee it will only be an opinion---prove me wrong.

It is almost impossible to convince anyone what they have been taught is wrong. They have all been educated in a system that falsely teaches evolution has been proven by science.

I have a hard time believing intelligent people can really believe legs became fins, a nosed became a blowhole a furry tale became a slick flapper and a land animal became a whale.

Even if I accepted evolution, I would have hard time swallowing that pill. IMO the biggest pill you have to swallow is that all life, plants, sea life and land life all started from some single-celled blob of something. I just do have that much faith.

 

[ChristineM]

Cut and past the evidence they offer. I guarantee it will only be an opinion---prove me wrong.

It is almost impossible to convince anyone what they have been taught is wrong. They have all been educated in a system that falsely teaches evolution has been proven by science.

I have a hard time believing intelligent people can really believe legs became fins, a nosed became a blowhole a furry tale became a slick flapper and a land animal became a whale.

Even if I accepted evolution, I would have hard time swallowing that pill. IMO the biggest pill you have to swallow is that all life, plants, sea life and land life all started from some single-celled blob of something. I just do have that much faith.

I have provided links, i am not wasting my time because you can't be bothered educating yourself

No falsely about evolution, it is observed in many different fields of science.

What you believe is totally irrelevant. Your education is the source of your problem with reality. And no faith is required when facts and observations show how it works.

 

[Jose Fly]

Once again the creationist argument is shown for what it is.

Yep.....conflict avoidance. Sometimes they make it blatantly obvious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Cut and past the evidence they offer. I guarantee it will only be an opinion---prove me wrong.

It is almost impossible to convince anyone what they have been taught is wrong. They have all been educated in a system that falsely teaches evolution has been proven by science.

I have a hard time believing intelligent people can really believe legs became fins, a nosed became a blowhole a furry tale became a slick flapper and a land animal became a whale.

Even if I accepted evolution, I would have hard time swallowing that pill. IMO the biggest pill you have to swallow is that all life, plants, sea life and land life all started from some single-celled blob of something. I just do have that much faith.

Go ahead and submit your paper that falsifies the TOE for peer review, and get back to us when the verdict is in on your studies. Until then, it will remain the prevailing scientific explanation that best fits the available evidence, regardless of your personal beliefs about it.

 

[omega2xx]

Go ahead and submit your paper that falsifies the TOE for peer review, and get back to us when the verdict is in on your studies. Until then, it will remain the prevailing scientific explanation that best fits the available evidence, regardless of your personal beliefs about it.

Go ahead and cut and paste the evidence any evo site offers. You would if you could but you can't

 

[SkepticThinker]

Go ahead and cut and paste the evidence any evo site offers. You would if you could but you can't

The massive amount of evidence is available in scientific journals, labs and museums all over the world. It's the prevailing scientific theory for the explanation of the diversity of life on earth for good reason.

As I already told you, I have presented evidence to you in the past and found it to be a total waste of time providing evidence to a person who isn't actually interested in evidence. Others on this thread (and other threads) have noted the same. You are coming from a dishonest starting point, and I'm not interested in a discussion that starts there.

The theory of evolution is as well evidenced as scientific theories come. But if you think it's not, I repeat, go ahead and submit your paper that falsifies it for peer review, and get back to me when the verdict is in on your findings. If it turns out you are correct, I will believe you then, but not a second sooner. You would surely win a Nobel Prize if you could manage that. Let me know how it goes.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

To say something as complex as the eye evolved from some blob they don't even know what it was, is even more absurd and unscientific as saying whales evolved from a land animal.

Genetics refutes both guesses, and without reading your link, I will say dogmatically they did not provide and scientific evidence to support what they said. Now is a good chance to prove me wrong. Cut and paste what they offered as evidence.

Yes, the problem remains as always; creating an entire eye by accidental mutation is far too improbable, and half an eye is worth nothing to a purely unguided process-

Ultimately- I think the fallacy here in the ToE is anthropomorphic, everything we consciously do is in anticipation of a future result, it's extremely difficult to remove this concept entirely from a thought experiment.

 

[shawn001]

The quote degenerates into jargon, and the writer avoids clear-worded reasoning and has not ever heard of the 'paragraph'.
Of course, that neither proves nor disproves the thesis. But it does speak of a disregard for the role of philosophers in bridging
the gap between the esoteric and clear-cut logic.

Perhaps we may attempt a discourse which can bridge this gap?
The eye is an excellent example for explaining genetic theory.

My own position is that something like genetic information
clearly must exist in order for parents to give birth to children - with eyes.
But having written a computer algorithm for a PHD thesis in microbiology,
I am forced to reach the conclusion that the entire manner in which this
occurs is only vaguely understood. And that careerism is 99% of the
essence of microbiology, whereby the more esoteric the jargon, the
easier it is to acquire public funding.

But this need not dissuade us from pursuing the topic.
To the contrary, it should embolden us to unravel the mystery.

But I can never tolerate a process of emperors and their invisible threads
hiding behind ad hominem processes of self-aggrandizement at the expense
of truth.

So let me get the ball rolling:
Before we can discuss genes, we must address the un-empirical
assumption of abiogenesis. Lest I be accused of jargon myself,
abiogenesis is simply the notion that atoms bouncing off each other
eventually results in living organisms with a genes that 'evolve' into eyes.

So, how does the genetic process appear out of a gloop of clay?

How about before we discuss abiogenesis and a "gloop of clay" we discuss how the Earth formed in the first place and the conditions at the time, which was EXTREMELY hostile to life?

 

[shawn001]

Err.

Whales did evolve from a land animal.

The evolution of whales

Actually, they went from the ocean to land and back to the ocean.

 

[shawn001]

All people on Earth now who have blue eyes.

Blue-eyed humans have a single, common ancestor

"New research shows that people with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor. Scientists have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6,000-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans alive on the planet today.

"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Professor Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. "But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes." The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin. The "switch," which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris -- effectively "diluting" brown eyes to blue. The switch's effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour -- a condition known as albinism."

Blue-eyed humans have a single, common ancestor

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Actually, they went from the ocean to land and back to the ocean.

Well the 'from the ocean to land' part applies to all land creatures,and precedes whales reoceanification by some millions of years, so I didn't think it beared mention.

 

[omega2xx]

Yes, the problem remains as always; creating an entire eye by accidental mutation is far too improbable, and half an eye is worth nothing to a purely unguided process-

Ultimately- I think the fallacy here in the ToE is anthropomorphic, everything we consciously do is in anticipation of a future result, it's extremely difficult to remove this concept entirely from a thought experiment.

Agreed. One problem is that in public education, evolution has been taught as a proven scientific fact from early childhood. It is hard to get past what is taught in school. Most people do not look at the other side of the coin.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Agreed. One problem is that in public education, evolution has been taught as a proven scientific fact from early childhood. It is hard to get past what is taught in school. Most people do not look at the other side of the coin.

Yes, I believed it as taught in school also, along with global cooling and peak oil! And of course it routinely appears as fact on TV, magazines etc

But worth remembering that despite all this, belief in Darwinian evolution is still only about 19% (Gallup) in the U.S. and much lower in many other places, so it's not as widely accepted as state curriculums, pop-science media, and atheist dominated internet forums would suggest!

 

[omega2xx]

Yes, I believed it as taught in school also, along with global cooling and peak oil! And of course it routinely appears as fact on TV, magazines etc

But worth remembering that despite all this, belief in Darwinian evolution is still only about 19% (Gallup) in the U.S. and much lower in many other places, so it's not as widely accepted as state curriculums, pop-science media, and atheist dominated internet forums would suggest!

As much s I respect Gallup, that 19% seems way to low. It is accepted and taught in all public schools, including college.