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The Exclusivity of Christianity

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
I worked in my grandmothers church food kitchen as an atheist. No one ever mentioned Jesus or any religious belief. The women did their duty for their fellow citizens. To my mind this is more of what a Christian is than worshippers with a head full of irrational concepts that are designed to serve the self's ego (like Jesus dying for their sins).

But you are right, racist Christians will find fellowship in the KKK, as that is the message of their faith. Yet my point is that belief in any version of God won't make a person any better or different than who they are.
Well, it makes it a lot easier to agree with someone about theology if you have the same theological view points, does it not? In theocratic nations you can be killed for not having the 'correct' beliefs about God. I am not saying that is a good thing, in fact, it's terrible, but when people say that they are both, for instance, Christians, it opens up room for more dialogue and discussion than had there not been a mutual understanding of the divine. The word religion literally comes from Latin meaning to bind people.
Why are humans living their lives for an imaginary being? How is that fulfilling? The more a person is invested in religion the more they have to shield themselves from doubt and their own ability to reason. We even see this with creationists as they go deeper into non-factual belief they have to find excuses to reject science and expertise. That is delusion. There is no functional path for people being religious UNLESS they treat the ideas as symbolic. Literalism is an eventual dead end.
See, YOU think it is an imaginary being, but to some people, God is reality or are near equivalents. It's funny because the only people who take the Bible literally are fundamentalists or atheists - they just come with polar opposite decisions on whether it's fiction or reality.
That's religious theater. You are creating an illusory "reality", which is called a fantasy. How is that useful? It's like a guy who asks his friends if they want to meet his girlfriend and he shows them a centerfold.

Yeah, it's what you think. You seem to be on a treadmill and believe you are going somewhere.
I live in the same reality as you buddy. You think I live in an illusion because you don't believe in syntheism or Earthseed. I have strong convictions of how I see reality, and where I believe it is heading. You can choose to believe it or not. But I am not going to sit behind a soap box and say either you are delusional because you're an atheist, or @Trailblazer is delusional because she's a Baha'i. It is not my role to do that, and frankly, it's condescending and rude to do so. You probably don't know anything about syntheist theology and probably don't want to know, that's fine --- but don't tell me I'm crazy simply for having a different world view than your own.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
At any point did you ever stop and consider the ideas of all these gods are not based in reality? You obviously were exposed to ideas of gods, as we all were. But for me I questioned what I heard, and I subjected the claims and the claimant's actions to scrutiny. None of it added up to any sort of actual truth. These people were absirbed in many different types of belief-centered tradition and did not show signs of thinking about what they were believing. It is like they are robots who don't understand they are robots.
Well, at one time, my thought was, that they were very contradictory, like if one religion was right, then all the others had to be wrong, which didn't make any sense to me because to me, they are talking about the future and the future hasn't even happened yet. When I realized this I veered over to agnosticism, but I was always a syntheist at heart, I just didn't know any religions that practiced or believed it until I discovered Terasem and then eventually Earthseed. I am now RF's leading advocate for the religion of Earthseed. And yes, I view all other religions as wrong at the same time, and I'm fine with that. If you take a step back and understand religion for what it is, it is clear to me that living things have the capacity to grow their divinity as they understand the world around them, that is what it means to be human and learn about science and technology. But I try not to overtly criticize other people's belief because they came to a different conclusion than me --- that's on them, not me. Some people believe what they hear easier than others, others are more skeptical, but what's great is that we can all unify as one human species that tries to understand all of it, even if no one person is correct about all the questions of life.
I actually asked questions. When i was a kid I asked why we are in church, and i was told "for our salvation". That was followed by more questions, and the answers were always superficial, and in a circular reasoning type of thinking. the adults did not have answers. they never questioned any of it as I was as a child. Even as a kid i was fascinated why all these humans believed in ideas that are not founded on any fact. I was suspicious that many didn't realy believe. i was shocked that as I learned about what Jesus taught many Christians around me did not follow the teachings. Surely they should fear judgment and hell right? No. They acted like they had a ticket to heaven and could not be cancelled. No humility. So naturally I was just not impressed by believers and their beliefs. They were my reasons for doubt.
Dude, the first time I went to a church that wasn't for a funeral or a wedding my mom and I visited a Unitarian church several miles south and I experienced church life for the first time. I do not have the same experiences as you regarding religion, you should take note of that. Yes, I've had my share of Christian friends who tried to preach the gospel to me -- and I would always say that you cannot be rewarded for having a belief, beliefs are something that shape a person and not their destination. You obviously have had negative experiences in church and for that I am sorry for but I cannot make it up to you because I am not you, nor do I wish to be you. I'm not the kind of person who would attend a church filled with fundamentalists anyways. I've been interested in religion for a long time, studying it, but I do it in the comfort of my own home, grasping and trying to understand different parts of it from different people, then coming to my own conclusions in due time afterwards. Do NOT project your fears of religion on me. It doesn't amuse me.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well, it makes it a lot easier to agree with someone about theology if you have the same theological view points, does it not? In theocratic nations you can be killed for not having the 'correct' beliefs about God. I am not saying that is a good thing, in fact, it's terrible, but when people say that they are both, for instance, Christians, it opens up room for more dialogue and discussion than had there not been a mutual understanding of the divine. The word religion literally comes from Latin meaning to bind people.
But it only binds tribes, not humanity.
See, YOU think it is an imaginary being, but to some people, God is reality or are near equivalents.
Who cares what some people believe? This is a matter of whether any of the many ideas of gods have any basis in fact. When ordinary mortals decide a God exists how is it wrong to equate that to belief in an imaginary friend? The social science study this, and there are natural explanation for why humans ended up as a believing species. It has been crucial to survival. There is an argument that this is no longer a necessity for survival as humans are overpopulated.
It's funny because the only people who take the Bible literally are fundamentalists or atheists - they just come with polar opposite decisions on whether it's fiction or reality.
I will rebut you here in that atheists will respond to any theist in proportion to what they claim. Atheists will interpret the Bible literally if they are debating a believer who does. No atheist believes in any of the many different interpretations.
I live in the same reality as you buddy. You think I live in an illusion because you don't believe in syntheism or Earthseed.
If you are living in an illusory dream world as you navigate life, yes, it is an illusion.
I have strong convictions of how I see reality, and where I believe it is heading. You can choose to believe it or not. But I am not going to sit behind a soap box and say either you are delusional because you're an atheist, or @Trailblazer is delusional because she's a Baha'i. It is not my role to do that, and frankly, it's condescending and rude to do so. You probably don't know anything about syntheist theology and probably don't want to know, that's fine --- but don't tell me I'm crazy simply for having a different world view than your own.
World views should reflect facts and data, yes? Does it do a person good to have assumptions that are not factual or plausible? I'm not saying don't live the way you do, but you are presenting your framework ina discussion so it is open for critique. What you are saying suggests an illusory world that you have decided is real and important, and I don't see any explanation why it's preferable than a more realist perspective.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because your writing reflects an assumption that I do believe in that god. You wrote, "You don't know what God wants, not any more than I do." Why would you write that to somebody that doesn't believe this deity exists much less has wants? It has no wants. But the fictional character of scripture does.
Like I tell all atheists, if you talk about god you are invoking god, so you are talking as if god exists, even if you do not believe in god.
Moreover, if you say that you think god wants x, y, or z, then god has to exist in order to want those things.
Why would it matter what a fictional character wants? If it doesn't matter then why talk about it? I don't talk about what Superman wants.
Really? Right now, I'm recording the network evening news on two stations. In a few minutes, I will be watching them while enjoying a buttery baked potato currently baking and a glass of wine. Eventually, I will shower and go to bed. Do you really have no idea why I would do those things?
You are recording the news because you plan to watch it. You will be eating a buttery baked potato and drinking a glass of wine because you need to eat and maybe also because you enjoy baked potatoes and wine. You will shower and go to bed because you want to be clean and you need to sleep.

But why on earth you continually talk about a god you don't believe exists is not something I can know unless you tell me.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
But it only binds tribes, not humanity.
Tribes are composed of people.
Who cares what some people believe? This is a matter of whether any of the many ideas of gods have any basis in fact, and none do. When ordinary mortals decide a God exists how is it wrong to equate that to belief in an imaginary friend? I have grilled theists for decades on why they believe at all and none can ever present a reasoned case to believe. The social science study this, and there are natural explanation for why humans ended up as a believing species. It has been crucial to survival. There is an argument that this is no longer a necessity for survival as humans are overpopulated.
We’re crucially underpopulated. Extremely underpopulated. To explain why however would require a little bit of faith - something you’re against.
I will rebut you here in that atheists will respond to any theist in proportion to what they claim. Atheists will interpret the Bible literally if they are debating a believer who does. No atheist believes in any of the many different interpretations.
Because they’re atheists! So what? Most people believe that Jesus at least existed at one point.
If you are living in an illusory dream world as you navigate life, yes, it is an illusion. You describe a lot of non-factual ideas that you build as your framework. I'm not sure why you think you need to spend so much time doing it.

World views should reflect facts and data, yes? Does it do a person good to have assumptions that are not factual or plausible? I'm not saying don't live the way you do, but you are presenting your framework ina discussion so it is open for critique. What you are saying suggests an illusory world that you have decided is real and important, and I don't see any explanation why it's preferable than a more realist perspective.
The saddest thing about this is you probably don’t even know my beliefs, but because I’m not an atheist I must be wrong and vilified for said beliefs. I am not delusional at all, I have just seen what is really going on and I’m not a nihilist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But if a person needs to believe in a deity just to behave better, they are still naturally capable of the behavior, they just need to decide a God exists that give them permission to be better. Talk about a confused mental state. The dilemma is that if a person only behaves because of an imaginary friend that it obeys, all the person has to do is reject that belief and get back to bad behavior. This is why 12 step progams fail. A better approach is to help people build self-respect and agency.
No, it's not like that at all. I don't believe in the deity so I can behave better, I only believe in the deity because I think it exists.
I don't need God's permission to behave better, nobody does.

For me God is not an imaginary friend, God is a real being that exists and knows how humans should behave, what is in their best interest, and that is one reason I obey God.
But to believe is still self-deception. Honest people that might believe can't exvect their desires of an afterlife is reasonable to expect. Only those who are really deceived will believe all these ideas. No one can make a rational conclusion that an afterlife exists, there is no set of facts and data to warrant that judgment.
I do not need facts and data to believe that an afterlife exists, I only need Revelation from God and what has come through from the other world through psychic mediums. There can never be facts and data about a spiritual world because its nature is unknowable.

I am as certain that an afterlife exists as I am certain I am going to eat dinner and go to bed tonight.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
Can you show that any God has real characteristics that make it more plausible than Mickey Mouse?

If no, then how is any god any different than fictional characters?
Mickey Mouse is a definite character. Everybody knows that Mickey Mouse is a cartoon because you can see it and believe it. God, on the other hand, operates differently, because you aren’t talking about animation but rather “what is the greatest thing that ever existed.” Baha’is worship the God they name Baha, or “the glorious one.” I shape God every day as a syntheist and Earthseed shaper. Some people can picture and try to understand what God is and means to them, others let it go and try other ways to spend their time. I say let bygones be bygones. It’s okay that @Trailblazer is a Baha’i like it’s okay you two are atheists. One day we’ll all find out who was ultimately right in their assertions. I don’t want to insult people’s intelligence or call them delusional because they have a different role of God than I do. If God did reveal him/her/itself to us, it probably would screw everything up anyways. Things are being taken care of by us because we’re the ones calling the shots. Could you imagine how many guilty atheists there would be if God just showed him/her/itself to everyone? It would screw up so many things we’ve built our societies around. God, just like liberal democratic nations, believes in the freedom of religion and letting people choose their own fates. And that’s ultimately a greater gift than God revealing him/her/itself and choosing that fate for us.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Mickey Mouse is a definite character. Everybody knows that Mickey Mouse is a cartoon because you can see it and believe it. God, on the other hand, operates differently,
Whoops, stop right there. This is a claim, not a fact, so irrelevant to the question I asked which is about FACTS, not your dogma/beliefs.
because you aren’t talking about animation but rather “what is the greatest thing that ever existed.” Baha’is worship the God they name Baha, or “the glorious one.” I shape God every day as a syntheist and Earthseed shaper. Some people can picture and try to understand what God is and means to them, others let it go and try other ways to spend their time. I say let bygones be bygones. It’s okay that @Trailblazer is a Baha’i like it’s okay you two are atheists. One day we’ll all find out who was ultimately right in their assertions. I don’t want to insult people’s intelligence or call them delusional because they have a different role of God than I do. If God did reveal him/her/itself to us, it probably would screw everything up anyways. Things are being taken care of by us because we’re the ones calling the shots. Could you imagine how many guilty atheists there would be if God just showed him/her/itself to everyone? It would screw up so many things we’ve built our societies around. God, just like liberal democratic nations, believes in the freedom of religion and letting people choose their own fates. And that’s ultimately a greater gift than God revealing him/her/itself and choosing that fate for us.
You are referring to a God you haven't shown to exist outside of your imagination. So none of this is relevant.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
Whoops, stop right there. This is a claim, not a fact, so irrelevant to the question I asked which is about FACTS, not your dogma/beliefs.
The existence of God is an opinion, not a fact. Let’s say God exists and revealed itself to us. There would still be many people who claim that wasn’t God, or somehow refuted any evidence there was that it showed us. For someone to believe in God not only does that person need to believe in something higher than himself, that person must believe that thing higher than himself is God too. So it’s tricky.
You are referring to a God you haven't shown to exist outside of your imagination. So none of this is relevant.
Here we go again, claiming I’m delusional for believing in God, yet again… Has anyone told you that you can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar? ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can you show that any God has real characteristics that make it more plausible than Mickey Mouse?

If no, then how is any god any different than fictional characters?
God can never be shown except through His Manifestation (Messenger).
By contrast, fictional characters are shown on TV and at he movies all the time. So if God was fictional, we would expect to see Him depicted on TV or on the movies.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God did reveal him/her/itself to us, it probably would screw everything up anyways.
Baha'is believe that God only shows up in the Person of the Manifestation (Messenger), who only reveals the Attributes and the Will of God, never the Essence of God. Baha'u'llah wrote what would happen if God ever revealed His Essence. It would do a lot more than screw everything up!

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings, pp. 71-72
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Let’s say God exists and revealed itself to us. There would still be many people who claim that wasn’t God, or somehow refuted any evidence there was that it showed us. For someone to believe in God not only does that person need to believe in something higher than himself, that person must believe that thing higher than himself is God too. So it’s tricky.
That is an excellent point. :) I am always asking Christians how they would they know it was actually Jesus if Jesus returned to earth, but the same thing applies to God. If God showed up on earth, how would anyone ever know it was actually God and not a being from outer space? Are we going to interview God and ask Him 20 questions that would qualify Him as God?
Here we go again, claiming I’m delusional for believing in God, yet again… Has anyone told you that you can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar? ;)
Sadly, my late husband used to tell me that a long time ago, before I became nicer. :(
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if you talk about god you are invoking god, so you are talking as if god exists, even if you do not believe in god.
Perhaps in your mind, but not in mine. Your rules are not mine. I am capable of discussing fictional characters without assuming they exist, so why can't you?
Moreover, if you say that you think god wants x, y, or z, then god has to exist in order to want those things.
That's incorrect. I can refer to God as a fictional character. And Santa. It is said that Santa is a jolly fellow who wants you to be nice, not naughty. Does Santa have to exist for that statement to be sensible?
Why would it matter what a fictional character wants?
Theists keep bringing us the wants and desires of their gods, and skeptics discuss those claims. You say that your god sends messengers, and we have been discussing it even though I don't believe this exists or sends messages or messengers.
why on earth you continually talk about a god you don't believe exists is not something I can know unless you tell me.
You talk about it and I talk with you. I enjoy the discussion.
God can never be shown except through His Manifestation (Messenger).
That's the kind of thing I enjoy discussing even though I don't believe any of that. Why would a tri-omni deity choose this method of making its will known? It wouldn't. That's me talking about this deity again because YOU'RE talking about it, and doing so doesn't make the deity real. I hope this answers your questions.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The existence of God is an opinion, not a fact. Let’s say God exists and revealed itself to us. There would still be many people who claim that wasn’t God, or somehow refuted any evidence there was that it showed us.
OK, you acknowledge gods are not known to exist, and anyone who refers to a God as if it is factual is not being honest, yes?

Let's note that what a God could be is up to anyone's imagination. So we can discuss any actual God showing up if it happens.
For someone to believe in God not only does that person need to believe in something higher than himself, that person must believe that thing higher than himself is God too. So it’s tricky.
There is no rational or factual reason to decide any Gods exist. There are natural explanations for why humans believe in irrational and weird ideas. The Ashe exveriemnts show how a person in a group will conform to an obviously wrong belief due to peer pressure. Our minds are not reliable thinking machines out of the box, we need to deliberately work to be skilled thinkers to avoid conforming to incorrect and irrational social norms.
Here we go again, claiming I’m delusional for believing in God, yet again… Has anyone told you that you can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar? ;)
You admitted gods are not known to exist, and you, nor other believers, can show how belief in any gods is a sound conclusion. So if you keep referring to gods or a God as if it is real then you will be called out. Do you think you deserve an exemption from making claims without evidence? It borders on proselytization.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
God can never be shown except through His Manifestation (Messenger).
This is a claim that is part of your religious belief, and you keep making it without offering adequate evidence, so I'm not convinced that either a God exists, or that any Messengers are authentic.
By contrast, fictional characters are shown on TV and at he movies all the time. So if God was fictional, we would expect to see Him depicted on TV or on the movies.
Oh God has been in many movies, George Burns played God twice, so did Morgan Freeman. Willem Defoe and Jim Caviezel, among others, have played Jesus in loads of films. So by your own special type of thinking God is fictional. I appreciate your help.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Not really, it just means you misinterpret the verses


Again, misinterpreting God's words, that's all there is

Easy to prove even, but those who want to see their faith the only True faith will never see the truth
I believe faith in Jesus is the only faith that is worth anything.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It was a bit hard considering I'm pressed for time at the moment to go through the whole two OP posts thouroughly. But it appeared to me that you are assuming that a creator God who made us and our environments is any less responsible for our faults than we are.

I question that assumption.

In my opinion.
I believe it is one of His most endearing qualities. However the fact that He permits it does not mean that is what He wants.
 
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