the existence of god is a scientific fact

[Audie]

Yes, though I wouldn't past them for trying.

People try to get photos of Nessie, or square the circle.
That is ok.
Whatever tips their canoe, I guess.

 

[charlie sc]

Samuel Morse proved his invention worked as well. He knew and acknowledged where his knowledge came from in the first ever message that opened up modern communications. He electrically transmitted his famous message 'What hath God wrought?' from Washington to Baltimore on May 24, 1844.

Indeed what hath God wrought, as on the day before the world was changed forever.

Regards Tony

In my life-time, if I ever see atheists become the majority of Earths demographic, I'll be sure to attribute it to God as well

 

[joe1776]

Well from these studies we do not know the effect is even real, so far. And the science community in general does not believe it is real. That is plain.

It doesn't matter how well the experiment is done or how positive the results are. The standard for proof can always be raised higher in mainstream science just as it is done in this forum in support of biases. If the research in psychology had the same standard of proof as psi research, no experiment would be replicated.

I think that psi researchers are already doing what they need to do. They have created their own journal and their own sources of funding and they are finding low-budget ways to do research. Gradually, they will persuade more and more people that psi research is useful.

 

[charlie sc]

Gradually, they will persuade more and more people that psi research is useful.

Umm, I’m just saying, they may not. Someone may love a theory and put their hearts into it. However, if the data come back negligible, and they’re good scientists, they have to be willing to accept the theory is wrong or an aspect of it is. This is why science is so difficult, because it’s always changing based on evidence. Saying evidence will present itself or people will be convinced goes against scientific enquiry, because it leaves open way too many biases. Being objective is key here.

 

[joe1776]

Please show some evidence that supports your assertion that "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than other kinds of research".

Perhaps you meant to say "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than for publication in the tabloid press".

I assume you're human and you have a brain but I can't prove that. You could be an AI program misfiring. There are lots of things that we all know as common knowledge that we can't prove but usually we don't have to.

When I state that "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than other kinds of research".it's common knowledge among people interested in the field if they are unbiased. And, I'm unconcerned with trying to persuade biased minds of anything.

 

[joe1776]

Umm, I’m just saying, they may not. Someone may love a theory and put their hearts into it. However, if the data come back negligible, and they’re good scientists, they have to be willing to accept the theory is wrong or an aspect of it is. This is why science is so difficult, because it’s always changing based on evidence. Saying evidence will present itself or people will be convinced goes against scientific enquiry, because it leaves open way too many biases. Being objective is key here.

I'm optimistic because I think truth eventually emerges to defeat falsity. And while I can't prove it, I know from one extraordinary experience with each, that telepathy and precognition exist. This isn't a theory that I love. I know the truth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my life-time, if I ever see atheists become the majority of Earths demographic, I'll be sure to attribute it to God as well

That is correct. As God allows us to follow our heart. It can be a reward or the punishment.

To quote the Quran;

'There is no compulsion in religion'.

Regards Tony

 

[joe1776]

No they have not. You have just provided me with the details and it is quite clear it is nowhere near proven.

Your opinion is noted, but we disagree on that. Imagining reasonable standards of proof, I think the autoganzfeld tests demonstrated the existence of telepathy years ago.

 

[ecco]

The standard for proof can always be raised higher in mainstream science just as it is done in this forum in support of biases.

It's really very simple:

A deck of cards - well shuffled.
In Room A - The sender and a deck of cards - well shuffled.
In Room B - The receiver and a whiteboard.
A panel of four judges including two Magicians and two members of a local sceptics organization. One of each in each room.

One at a time, at one minute intervals, the sender looks at a card and telepathically tells the receiver the suit and rank. The receiver telepathically reads what the sender sent and writes it on the whiteboard.

If there is anything to telepathy, the receiver should be accurate on all 52 choices.​

Why has this never been done? Probably for the same reason that fraud Uri Geller couldn't mentally bend spoons with Johnny Carson watching.

 

[ecco]

Please show some evidence that supports your assertion that "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than other kinds of research".

When I state that "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than other kinds of research".it's common knowledge among people interested in the field if they are unbiased. And, I'm unconcerned with trying to persuade biased minds of anything.

In other words, you have no evidence to support your allegation.

If you were "unconcerned with trying to persuade biased minds of anything", then why did you post "the standard of proof for psi research is much higher in those journals than other kinds of research"? Do you just like to see your words come up on your monitor?

 

[ecco]

I know from one extraordinary experience with each, that telepathy and precognition exist.

Neither of which you can replicate.

So much for science. That's the beauty of woo. No one needs to show evidence for anything. Everyone is just expected to agree and go "Oooooooooooh - That's marvelous!"

 

[joe1776]

It's really very simple:

A deck of cards - well shuffled.
In Room A - The sender and a deck of cards - well shuffled.
In Room B - The receiver and a whiteboard.
A panel of four judges including two Magicians and two members of a local sceptics organization. One of each in each room.

One at a time, at one minute intervals, the sender looks at a card and telepathically tells the receiver the suit and rank. The receiver telepathically reads what the sender sent and writes it on the whiteboard.

If there is anything to telepathy, the receiver should be accurate on all 52 choices.​

Why has this never been done? Probably for the same reason that fraud Uri Geller couldn't mentally bend spoons with Johnny Carson watching.

With my six year-old daughter sending from one room and me in another, she sent and I received visions of playing cards that allowed me to correctly identify 13 cards in a row before my daughter tired of the game and quit sending.

My daughter didn't see the visions in my head; my wife, standing behind my daughter saw the correct choices but she couldn't see the visions in my head.
There was no way I could prove to anyone that I hadn't simply guessed 13 cards in a row although the odds of doing that are something like 18 million to one.

In a scientific test, there would be no way to prove that I hadn't trained my daughter to cheat because the researchers couldn't see the visions in my head.

Doing 13 cards was very difficult. It was hard to distinguish spades and clubs and hearts and diamonds. Face cards were tough to distinguish. Counting the spots between a five and a six or a 7 and 8 was't easy.

52 cards in a row would be near impossible unless the sender and receiver had an especially strong connection.

The Zener cards are used in experiments. There are five cards, easily distinguishable. They would have been a snap for me and my daughter. But it isn't enough that a pair score well. The experiment has to be conducted in such a way that it is all done automatically (no other humans involved to eliminate the transference of data).

Someday, when an advanced f MRI can see the cards transmitted to the receiver's brain, telepathy will be accepted by mainstream science.

 

[joe1776]

Neither of which you can replicate.

So much for science. That's the beauty of woo. No one needs to show evidence for anything. Everyone is just expected to agree and go "Oooooooooooh - That's marvelous!"

I know from one experience with each that telepathy and precognition exist. But when I hear anecdotal evidence such as I've given you, I can't tell whether the story is fact or fiction.

The difference is that I know that some of those anecdotal stories are true.I just can't tell which. Whereas you find it hard to believe that your marvelous mind has never been capable of even one such extraordinary experience. It's too bad.

 

[blü 2]

I've read that article and I've also read articles criticizing the Randi offer which presents an entirely different picture.But the bottom line is this: James Randi was not only capable of deception but prone to deception and anyone who had no doubt as to the offer's authenticity doesn't understand the true nature of skepticism.

I know of no example to support your claim. Can you provide one?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Give us some examples.

Their lives. If you study the lives of the Manifestations of God you will that it was one of sacrifice and persecution. They were tortured, imprisoned, beaten, exiled, crucified and executed to try and get them to retract their claim to be from God and They endured all this without earthly power or wealth and in time subdued the hearts and minds of billions of people all over the world after a Their passing. Their teachings transformed both the individual and civilisation. No earthly power could have achieved what They have achieved unaided and unassisted.

Then there is Their Holy Books which have become the guide for the daily lives of billions of people. Their influence is undeniable and has never been emulated or copied. Claims have been made but died out soon after.

These Great Beings number only a handful. Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[joe1776]

I know of no example to support your claim. Can you provide one?

An example to prove that James Randi was a cunning man, experienced in deception?

Were you unaware that deception is what stage magicians do and that Randi made his living for many years as a stage magician. If you are aware of those facts why would you need a specific example?

If I don't give you a specific example, will you then claim that I haven't offered sufficient evidence to support my skepticism?

 

[loverofhumanity]

They are invisible but still measurable, testable and demonstrable.

According to the Baha’i Writings:

Material science is the investigation of natural phenomena; divine science is the discovery and realization of spiritual verities.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What makes you think people aren't inspired by Tolstoy's or Dickens' works? How do you know? I'm constantly inspired by novels and music that have nothing to do with god(s) whatsoever.

Of course people are inspired by them even I am but I don’t model my life on them as I do on the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Adolph Hitler transformed and changed entire civilisations and transformed the lives of billions of people.
Mao Zedong transformed and changed entire civilisations and transformed the lives of billions of people.

What's your point?

Not in the name of God they didn’t.

 

[blü 2]

An example to prove that James Randi was a cunning man, experienced in deception?

No, an example where a candidate was improperly denied the Randi prize.