The Existential Threat of Ignorance and Stupidity in America

[Dan From Smithville]

Bobby Azarian is a cognitive neuroscientist and science journalist whose articles I have found interesting and useful. Recently, I came across a couple of his articles dealing with what appears to be a growing popularity of ignorance and increasing stupidity that Azarian considers and existential threat to modern society.

A neuroscientist explains the problem of ignorance and how we can fight it
"Being ignorant about a particular topic isn’t shameful. None of us know everything — that’s an impossible task. Ignorance does not come from a lack of education, but an unwillingness to seek education. Ignorance is a consequence of refusing to change your beliefs when reality is constantly contradicting them."

Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
"Stupidity is a consequence of a failure to be aware of one’s own limitations, and this type of cognitive failure has a scientific name: the Dunning-Kruger effect."

These two subjects are of much interest to me, considering the proliferation of conspiracy theories that people are using as the basis for decision making and the almost gleeful celebration of ignorance and near rejection of education as "elitist" in some quarters. Couple that with a growing population of those rejecting expert opinion in favor of their own unearned expertise and I think that we do have a growing threat to our future.

We are all ignorant to a degree relevant to the the subject under consideration, but many people seem to no longer question anything that fits with the model they live by regardless of how irrational or ridiculous it might be. If it feeds into what they want to believe, it is uncommon to see the unbelievable believed. At the same time we see a growing number of people that assume subject matter expertise of subjects they don't seem to know much or anything about. How can we, as a nation build on a foundation like that? We lose progress and actually begin to regress culturally, educationally, scientifically as well as competitively on the international field. There appears to be no upside to ignorant and stupid outside of politics.

I'm including a link to a review explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect in more detail, but essentially, it is that many do not know what they do not know.
https://www.area-c54.it/public/dunning - kruger effect.pdf

 

[Secret Chief]

Given you've put this in the general rather than American politics section....

Do you perceive this to be significantly worse in the US than in comparable countries then?

I confess it seems that way based on what I see on RF.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Given you've put this in the general rather than American politics section....

Do you perceive this to be significantly worse in the US than in comparable countries then?

I confess it seems that way based on what I see on RF.

I put it in general debates, since it doesn't just encompass politics, but healthcare, science, religion and general knowledge.

I am biased to the US, since I live here and most of what I hear is about this country. But I am aware that similar regress is occurring in instances internationally. Though, I do think it is a much bigger problem in the U.S. at this time.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Given you've put this in the general rather than American politics section....

Do you perceive this to be significantly worse in the US than in comparable countries then?

I confess it seems that way based on what I see on RF.

I was debating (no pun intended) where to put it, but I see it as a larger issue, just apparently (to me anyway) more prevalent in the US right now.

I see a lot of experts that can't tell me anything about the fields they chime in on here on RF. I also see a number of people that do know their limitations while being very rational in their communication. So all is not lost yet.

I do admit that you are correct and U.S. politics is rife with ignorance and self-appointed experts. But even with that lead, our politics is not alone on the field.

 

[Secret Chief]

I put it in general debates, since it doesn't just encompass politics, but healthcare, science, religion and general knowledge.

I am biased to the US, since I live here and most of what I hear is about this country. But I am aware that similar regress is occurring in instances internationally. Though, I do think it is a much bigger problem in the U.S. at this time.

I agree. Denial of scientific reality seems to be an American speciality, which as you say is quite worrying. For example, when posts denying the climate emergency are made on RF you can be pretty sure it will be by American members of the site. I find some posts and attitudes here quite incredible and yes worrying for the future.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I agree. Denial of scientific reality seems to be an American speciality, which as you say is quite worrying. For example, when posts denying the climate emergency are made on RF you can be pretty sure it will be by American members of the site. I find some posts and attitudes here quite incredible and yes worrying for the future.

Being a scientist, science denial and abuse are important issues for me. I beam with pride knowing that a country that has been a leading proponent in the advancement of science and technology through the 20th Century seems to want to ride this Century out with our collective heads firmly planted in our...own hubris.

It isn't limited to just denial, but the sources that are used are often nonsense, outdated, and uninformed. That pretty much describes the science denial I see here in general.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Given you've put this in the general rather than American politics section....

Do you perceive this to be significantly worse in the US than in comparable countries then?

I confess it seems that way based on what I see on RF.

There seems to be a lot of "I don't care about facts, I just want my way no matter what".

 

[Secret Chief]

Being a scientist, science denial and abuse are important issues for me. I beam with pride knowing that a country that has been a leading proponent in the advancement of science and technology through the 20th Century seems to want to ride this Century out with our collective heads firmly planted in our...own hubris.

It isn't limited to just denial, but the sources that are used are often nonsense, outdated, and uninformed. That pretty much describes the science denial I see here in general.

Yes, how did you ever manage to land a man on the moon? Or was that just mocked up in a secret film studio - I've seen a video of it by an expert on youtube.

 

[Stevicus]

Bobby Azarian is a cognitive neuroscientist and science journalist whose articles I have found interesting and useful. Recently, I came across a couple of his articles dealing with what appears to be a growing popularity of ignorance and increasing stupidity that Azarian considers and existential threat to modern society.

A neuroscientist explains the problem of ignorance and how we can fight it
"Being ignorant about a particular topic isn’t shameful. None of us know everything — that’s an impossible task. Ignorance does not come from a lack of education, but an unwillingness to seek education. Ignorance is a consequence of refusing to change your beliefs when reality is constantly contradicting them."

Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
"Stupidity is a consequence of a failure to be aware of one’s own limitations, and this type of cognitive failure has a scientific name: the Dunning-Kruger effect."

These two subjects are of much interest to me, considering the proliferation of conspiracy theories that people are using as the basis for decision making and the almost gleeful celebration of ignorance and near rejection of education as "elitist" in some quarters. Couple that with a growing population of those rejecting expert opinion in favor of their own unearned expertise and I think that we do have a growing threat to our future.

We are all ignorant to a degree relevant to the the subject under consideration, but many people seem to no longer question anything that fits with the model they live by regardless of how irrational or ridiculous it might be. If it feeds into what they want to believe, it is uncommon to see the unbelievable believed. At the same time we see a growing number of people that assume subject matter expertise of subjects they don't seem to know much or anything about. How can we, as a nation build on a foundation like that? We lose progress and actually begin to regress culturally, educationally, scientifically as well as competitively on the international field. There appears to be no upside to ignorant and stupid outside of politics.

I'm including a link to a review explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect in more detail, but essentially, it is that many do not know what they do not know.
https://www.area-c54.it/public/dunning - kruger effect.pdf

I get a strong sense of just how much stupidity there is out there every time I get out on the roadways and see how other people drive. And then there are those with bumper stickers.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, how did you ever manage to land a man on the moon? Or was that just mocked up in a secret film studio - I've seen a video of it by an expert on youtube.

The moon's not real.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I get a strong sense of just how much stupidity there is out there every time I get out on the roadways and see how other people drive. And then there are those with bumper stickers.

View attachment 73255

I know what you mean.

 

[Secret Chief]

There seems to be a lot of "I don't care about facts, I just want my way no matter what".

Things would be much simpler for seemingly half the country politically if it was declared "Yeah we're no longer going in for that democracy thing."
And obviously the Christian nationalism thing seems to be driving a lot of the attitudes. It seems each day brings another jaw-dropping thread, such that it is practically impossible to satirise it. "Man sues ex wife's friends for assisting in murder after abortion and divorce." Previously unimagined absurdities have now become a daily reality.

 

[SomeRandom]

To be honest, I’ve been a little concerned about that for a while. Granted that might be more because of the circles I hang out online. (Mostly content creators who mock and laugh at “major fails.”) And my concern isn’t based on academia so much as it is just observing people, lol
To be clear these are folks who hold some semblance to power in US politics, being beyond dumb, over a long period of time.
I mean mine are dumb but we’re all drunk by default lol

 

[Stevicus]

Being a scientist, science denial and abuse are important issues for me. I beam with pride knowing that a country that has been a leading proponent in the advancement of science and technology through the 20th Century seems to want to ride this Century out with our collective heads firmly planted in our...own hubris.

It isn't limited to just denial, but the sources that are used are often nonsense, outdated, and uninformed. That pretty much describes the science denial I see here in general.

I see it as a result and consequence of policies which have severely degraded not only the educational system, but also within the culture where teachers are undervalued and underpaid. When one looks at other countries, one finds that this is not the case and that there is greater respect for education and educated people overall.

Some of it may also be due to a sense of arrogance or a lack of desire to actually light a candle in the darkness. Even people who may be educated and/or scientifically literate sometimes appear to find pleasure in acting like the teacher who finds joy in mocking and ridiculing a wayward student. I've seen this happen quite a bit to the point where I think has actually had an effect on people's perceptions within the culture.

I can sense a degree of classism, which feeds into people's egos and sense of narcissism, where there's some underlying desire to browbeat and denigrate people just for being from the lower classes, who didn't have the same advantages and privileges of "the educated."

If the entire goal is to make large segments of the populace feel bad about themselves and fill them with angst and anger, then it seems that the "enlightened" and "educated" of our society have succeeded brilliantly. While they woefully suck at reducing the collective ignorance of society, they're quite adept at pissing people off and pouring gasoline on fires.

 

[Revoltingest]

Bobby Azarian is a cognitive neuroscientist and science journalist whose articles I have found interesting and useful. Recently, I came across a couple of his articles dealing with what appears to be a growing popularity of ignorance and increasing stupidity that Azarian considers and existential threat to modern society.

A neuroscientist explains the problem of ignorance and how we can fight it
"Being ignorant about a particular topic isn’t shameful. None of us know everything — that’s an impossible task. Ignorance does not come from a lack of education, but an unwillingness to seek education. Ignorance is a consequence of refusing to change your beliefs when reality is constantly contradicting them."

Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
"Stupidity is a consequence of a failure to be aware of one’s own limitations, and this type of cognitive failure has a scientific name: the Dunning-Kruger effect."

These two subjects are of much interest to me, considering the proliferation of conspiracy theories that people are using as the basis for decision making and the almost gleeful celebration of ignorance and near rejection of education as "elitist" in some quarters. Couple that with a growing population of those rejecting expert opinion in favor of their own unearned expertise and I think that we do have a growing threat to our future.

We are all ignorant to a degree relevant to the the subject under consideration, but many people seem to no longer question anything that fits with the model they live by regardless of how irrational or ridiculous it might be. If it feeds into what they want to believe, it is uncommon to see the unbelievable believed. At the same time we see a growing number of people that assume subject matter expertise of subjects they don't seem to know much or anything about. How can we, as a nation build on a foundation like that? We lose progress and actually begin to regress culturally, educationally, scientifically as well as competitively on the international field. There appears to be no upside to ignorant and stupid outside of politics.

I'm including a link to a review explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect in more detail, but essentially, it is that many do not know what they do not know.
https://www.area-c54.it/public/dunning - kruger effect.pdf

Does this study measure ignorance in an objective & quantitative way?
If not, then it could just be a personal impression.
My entire life, people have always complained about things getting
worse in this way or that. But I doubt this. Most tend to focus on
what bothers them in the moment....they lack long perspective.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Things would be much simpler for seemingly half the country politically if it was declared "Yeah we're no longer going in for that democracy thing."
And obviously the Christian nationalism thing seems to be driving a lot of the attitudes. It seems each day brings another jaw-dropping thread, such that it is practically impossible to satirise it. "Man sues ex wife's friends for assisting in murder after abortion and divorce." Previously unimagined absurdities have now become a daily reality.

Christian nationalism isn't Christianity and it isn't patriotism either. It's fascism.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Meh...I'm not sure that people now are more ignorant.
I've spoken to old people and...yeah...I'm not holding them up as incredible fonts of knowledge either.

I would see tribalism as a major problem these days...perhaps it always has been, but I think some of our current modes of communication reinforce this. And this can present as ignorance in some ways.

I also think the bodies of knowledge we are talking about in these types of discussion are increasingly complex and less related to 'common sense'. Once upon a time a good understanding of basic scientific process and the difference between causal and correlating effects would go a long way. That's less true now.

I think there are also people on the 'less ignorant' side who need to understand their own ignorance. When I look at things like the Sierra Club's guide to Equity Language it strikes me that making language clearer and more communicative isn't at all the aim. The ignorance there might not be of a technical nature, but of how they are separating themselves from common vernacular and the impact of this. Their 'inclusive' language is...well...exclusionary, to be frank.

It's a topical example, rather than a compelling one. Academic technical knowledge is combined with a level of deliberate segregation from the common man in some cases. It doesn't help when talking about ignorance in a general way.

 

[F1fan]

I heard a fellow talk about the decline of knowledge learning and saying it might not be too bad of a thing in some circumastances. The rise of the internet and smartphones means we have access to libraries of knowledge instantly. The question is about how a broad knowledge base offers a person a sort of platform to know HOW to learn, and even form a basis of personal perspectives that we use to relate to others and navigate life. I insist that teaching critical thinking skill is a crucial lesson. Also knowing how science works is crucial. these are useful because there is so much disinformation on the internet that a poorly educated person might think is valid. Creationism and other anti-science dogmas are a prime example. I think new students need to be taught the tools to think and understand, and how seeking knowledge from valid sources is a huge advantage in life.

 

[Heyo]

Does this study measure ignorance in an objective & quantitative way?
If not, then it could just be a personal impression.
My entire life, people have always complained about things getting
worse in this way or that. But I doubt this. Most tend to focus on
what bothers them in the moment....they lack long perspective.

It is less the level of ignorance but more the proud display of it.
And it is the fact that today stupidity takes a while to bite you in the backside. While in the past ignorance could net you an instant Darwin Award, it may get you social recognition today. Thus it is self-perpetuating and even less ignorant people act as if they were as stupid as their audience.
Take various Fox News hosts. As we found out lately they aren't bumbling idiots - they just play them on TV - and get paid royally for it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Does this study measure ignorance in an objective & quantitative way?
If not, then it could just be a personal impression.
My entire life, people have always complained about things getting
worse in this way or that. But I doubt this. Most tend to focus on
what bothers them in the moment....they lack long perspective.

Well, if you ask if it is possible to study subjectivity in a an objective and quantitative way, then yes. But it is in part not a part of science as you understand it.