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The Existential Threat of Ignorance and Stupidity in America

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I notice this problem a lot when I try to communicate with people. I tend to often use words like "justified," "truth," "belief," "value," "fact," "evidence," "impossible," "unlikely," "possible," "plausible," "likely," "almost certain," "logical," "illogical," and "ignorant" in ways that imply the context of epistemic logic, Bayesian epistemology, or Stoic philosophy.

It causes a lot of confusion, particularly because words like "logical" and "fact" and "truth" are often used as loaded language that merely assert some form of general praise. Pointed rhetoric you agree with becomes logical. Opinions become facts. Truth becomes subjective, and we all get our own that can be whatever we feel like making up, and how arrogant is it of me to say that anything could be false!

When I want to "debate" with "arguments," most people aren't jumping to have a dispassionate dialectic in an attempt to reconcile two conflicting viewpoints as a cooperative effort to find common ground and reach the truth. Instead, they passionately defend their position while attacking mine, using whatever dirty persuasive techniques they can, with no intention of ever conceding even the smallest point. They prefer verbal abuse and sarcastic mockery right out the gate.

I don't really know an easy way to overcome this barrier where we mean completely different things by the words we use. The very concepts of "truth" and "knowledge" and "reason" only have rigid meanings in their academic sense. In the popular sense, they have become political buzzwords that are almost entirely devoid of meaning now. At the same time, I can't realistically expect everyone to be educated on every nuance of academic epistemology, can I?

Pessimistically, I suspect that if everyone was educated on epistemology, it would just lead to an even greater misuse of terms as politicians and activists would have to come up with new ways to distort reality to fit their agendas. The smarter the population as a whole becomes, the smarter the con men become, too. It's a philosophical arms race and they're clearly winning, because global inequality has been steadily rising for awhile now and we're not really doing anything in the face of a climate catastrophe that benefits a select few at the expense of everyone else.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I notice this problem a lot when I try to communicate with people. I tend to often use words like "justified," "truth," "belief," "value," "fact," "evidence," "impossible," "unlikely," "possible," "plausible," "likely," "almost certain," "logical," "illogical," and "ignorant" in ways that imply the context of epistemic logic, Bayesian epistemology, or Stoic philosophy.

It causes a lot of confusion, particularly because words like "logical" and "fact" and "truth" are often used as loaded language that merely assert some form of general praise. Pointed rhetoric you agree with becomes logical. Opinions become facts. Truth becomes subjective, and we all get our own that can be whatever we feel like making up, and how arrogant is it of me to say that anything could be false!

When I want to "debate" with "arguments," most people aren't jumping to have a dispassionate dialectic in an attempt to reconcile two conflicting viewpoints as a cooperative effort to find common ground and reach the truth. Instead, they passionately defend their position while attacking mine, using whatever dirty persuasive techniques they can, with no intention of ever conceding even the smallest point. They prefer verbal abuse and sarcastic mockery right out the gate.

I don't really know an easy way to overcome this barrier where we mean completely different things by the words we use. The very concepts of "truth" and "knowledge" and "reason" only have rigid meanings in their academic sense. In the popular sense, they have become political buzzwords that are almost entirely devoid of meaning now. At the same time, I can't realistically expect everyone to be educated on every nuance of academic epistemology, can I?

Pessimistically, I suspect that if everyone was educated on epistemology, it would just lead to an even greater misuse of terms as politicians and activists would have to come up with new ways to distort reality to fit their agendas. The smarter the population as a whole becomes, the smarter the con men become, too. It's a philosophical arms race and they're clearly winning, because global inequality has been steadily rising for awhile now and we're not really doing anything in the face of a climate catastrophe that benefits a select few at the expense of everyone else.

Well, to me e.g. in the academic sense truth has no singular rigid meaning. The same goes for knowledge and indeed reason.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Well, to me e.g. in the academic sense truth has no singular rigid meaning. The same goes for knowledge and indeed reason.
I never mentioned knowledge or reason. Epistemic logic and Bayesian epistemology are the most popular and influential definitions of knowledge currently in use, though, and they're dominating the field for good reasons; so you're right that there's no singular rigid meaning, but it's generally fairly agreed upon what you probably mean by that word.

Aside from that, you're right, "truth" can have more specific meanings depending on what field you're looking at. Even within logic, different logics have different inference rules and operators, and thus slightly different contextual meanings for "truth."

None of this is my point, though. It's not like if I qualify that I mean "truth" in the sense of modal logic or "justified" in a Bayesian sense that it's going to clear anything up. There's a difference between having multiple definitions for these words and lacking any coherent definition for them, to the point they become empty rhetoric.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It is less the level of ignorance but more the proud display of it.
And it is the fact that today stupidity takes a while to bite you in the backside. While in the past ignorance could net you an instant Darwin Award, it may get you social recognition today. Thus it is self-perpetuating and even less ignorant people act as if they were as stupid as their audience.
Take various Fox News hosts. As we found out lately they aren't bumbling idiots - they just play them on TV - and get paid royally for it.
I recall ignorance abounding over half a century ago.
It never flagged. Methinks perhaps that people are so
focused upon the Trump cult phenomenon that they
believe ignorance to have increased...because there
was nothing like it before. Also different is the vastly
increased diversity of news from more sources than
ever before, along with the decrease in censorship.
The lid has merely been lifted on ignorance that was
already endemic. Trump is just the loudest advocate
yet seen....a Pied Piper for the ignorant.
(Yes, I just compared them to vermin.)
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
It is less the level of ignorance but more the proud display of it.
And it is the fact that today stupidity takes a while to bite you in the backside. While in the past ignorance could net you an instant Darwin Award, it may get you social recognition today. Thus it is self-perpetuating and even less ignorant people act as if they were as stupid as their audience.
Take various Fox News hosts. As we found out lately they aren't bumbling idiots - they just play them on TV - and get paid royally for it.
Are you saying they are just actors? I missed how we found out.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Just what is your science background?

That depends if your view your definition of it as objective and a fact like say gravity. Then I have none, because I belong to human science in the European continental tradition where you belong to the Anglo-Saxon one, as far as I can tell.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That depends if your view your definition of it as objective and a fact like say gravity. Then I have none, because I belong to human science in the European continental tradition where you belong to the Anglo-Saxon one, as far as I can tell.
Well that was clear as mud.
Conversing with some people is like trying to nail Jello to a wall.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So many words.
So little content.

Yeah, at least I don't believe in the real world, because those words have no empirical referents. E.g. a black cat has empirical referents, but not the real world. Didn't they teach you than when you learned about observations and science?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Bobby Azarian is a cognitive neuroscientist and science journalist whose articles I have found interesting and useful. Recently, I came across a couple of his articles dealing with what appears to be a growing popularity of ignorance and increasing stupidity that Azarian considers and existential threat to modern society.

A neuroscientist explains the problem of ignorance and how we can fight it
"Being ignorant about a particular topic isn’t shameful. None of us know everything — that’s an impossible task. Ignorance does not come from a lack of education, but an unwillingness to seek education. Ignorance is a consequence of refusing to change your beliefs when reality is constantly contradicting them."

Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
"Stupidity is a consequence of a failure to be aware of one’s own limitations, and this type of cognitive failure has a scientific name: the Dunning-Kruger effect."

These two subjects are of much interest to me, considering the proliferation of conspiracy theories that people are using as the basis for decision making and the almost gleeful celebration of ignorance and near rejection of education as "elitist" in some quarters. Couple that with a growing population of those rejecting expert opinion in favor of their own unearned expertise and I think that we do have a growing threat to our future.

We are all ignorant to a degree relevant to the the subject under consideration, but many people seem to no longer question anything that fits with the model they live by regardless of how irrational or ridiculous it might be. If it feeds into what they want to believe, it is uncommon to see the unbelievable believed. At the same time we see a growing number of people that assume subject matter expertise of subjects they don't seem to know much or anything about. How can we, as a nation build on a foundation like that? We lose progress and actually begin to regress culturally, educationally, scientifically as well as competitively on the international field. There appears to be no upside to ignorant and stupid outside of politics.

I'm including a link to a review explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect in more detail, but essentially, it is that many do not know what they do not know.
https://www.area-c54.it/public/dunning - kruger effect.pdf

Well, yes. That is one form. There is another. The belief that the given methodology a person is trained in and can do, applies to all aspects of the everyday world and it gives positive correct answer to how we ought to live as humans.

A personal example. I once came across a structural engineer, who claimed that how to deal with society should be left to engineers, because society as such was no different than building a bridge.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I was debating (no pun intended) where to put it, but I see it as a larger issue, just apparently (to me anyway) more prevalent in the US right now.

I see a lot of experts that can't tell me anything about the fields they chime in on here on RF. I also see a number of people that do know their limitations while being very rational in their communication. So all is not lost yet.

I do admit that you are correct and U.S. politics is rife with ignorance and self-appointed experts. But even with that lead, our politics is not alone on the field.

I'm an "expert" but I don't bother because all you get in return is either a bunch of Bible verses or a slew of links to unhinged YouTube videos. (Apologies to those who do discuss).
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'm an "expert" but I don't bother because all you get in return is either a bunch of Bible verses or a slew of links to unhinged YouTube videos. (Apologies to those who do discuss).

Yeah, that is a part of it. But in my culture it is not really religion that is the big part of it. It is more generally stage 3 and 4 on Kohlberg’s Stages Of Moral Development and how that is connect to the ideas of evidence, truth, proof, rationality, objectivity and what not in regards to the more general idea of a good life and not just as per religion.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I recall ignorance abounding over half a century ago.
It never flagged. Methinks perhaps that people are so
focused upon the Trump cult phenomenon that they
believe ignorance to have increased...because there
was nothing like it before. Also different is the vastly
increased diversity of news from more sources than
ever before, along with the decrease in censorship.
The lid has merely been lifted on ignorance that was
already endemic. Trump is just the loudest advocate
yet seen....a Pied Piper for the ignorant.
(Yes, I just compared them to vermin.)
Trump is just the icing on the cake. Remember Dubya? The decline began much earlier. About that time you had that cowboy actor. Now it has become clearly visible, also thanks to independent news sources.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Are you saying they are just actors? I missed how what found out.
Recent news in connection with the Dominion law suit. They gained access to internal conversations. Seems almost everyone at Fox knew that there was no election fraud and thought it was stupid to try to sell that lie - and then went on to do it anyway.
 
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