The Existential Threat of Ignorance and Stupidity in America

[Koldo]

I put it in general debates, since it doesn't just encompass politics, but healthcare, science, religion and general knowledge.

I am biased to the US, since I live here and most of what I hear is about this country. But I am aware that similar regress is occurring in instances internationally. Though, I do think it is a much bigger problem in the U.S. at this time.

I see no particular difference between the USA and Brazil on this case, except I see no regress here in Brazil.

What we are living here is a consequence of:

1) Trusting in authorities. It doesn't really matter if said authority (be it a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, a journalist or a priest) can explain to us what is going on. Just trust their authorities.

2) Said authorities are proven to be unreliable time and time again. Messing up big gime at least every once in a while.

Eggs are a good dietary option. Now they are not. Now they are once again.

You have been diagnosed with X, but actually you happen to have Y.

And so on... Entailing in loss of trust.

3) With a phone and internet connection, everyone can present oneself as an authority and look knowledgeable about a subject.

Now there is a battle over who is telling the truth: The new guys that have a very interesting narrative (such as conspiracy theories) or the old guys that can't be completely trusted.

So, what's the root of the problem? The whole 'Trust the authorities' that started this mess.

 

[Revoltingest]

Trump is just the icing on the cake. Remember Dubya? The decline began much earlier. About that time you had that cowboy actor. Now it has become clearly visible, also thanks to independent news sources.

One good thing about those 2 you just dissed...
Neither was a lawyer like Nixon or Clinton.

Advice...
Dis people for real reasons.
Not for irrelevant traits that are just easy to pick on.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

To be honest, I’ve been a little concerned about that for a while. Granted that might be more because of the circles I hang out online. (Mostly content creators who mock and laugh at “major fails.”) And my concern isn’t based on academia so much as it is just observing people, lol
To be clear these are folks who hold some semblance to power in US politics, being beyond dumb, over a long period of time.
I mean mine are dumb but we’re all drunk by default lol

I agree. We have some real winners in office that use ignorance to promote their agendas. Something that has always been so, but seems much more widespread these days using modern communication and technological means to recirculate nonsense repetitively.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Does this study measure ignorance in an objective & quantitative way?
If not, then it could just be a personal impression.
My entire life, people have always complained about things getting
worse in this way or that. But I doubt this. Most tend to focus on
what bothers them in the moment....they lack long perspective.

They are not really studies, but syntheses of informed opinion that reflects the greater ability to disseminate and sustain propaganda that was an unavailable mechanism in the past. Also is reflected a degradation in the manner of political groups.

What was once radical conspiracies relegated to the margins are now able to trot out to center stage and be performed for target audiences and much more widely on heavy rotation.

I don't see it as anything new in content, but in extent.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I see no particular difference between the USA and Brazil on this case, except I see no regress here in Brazil.

What we are living here is a consequence of:

1) Trusting in authorities. It doesn't really matter if said authority (be it a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, a journalist or a priest) can explain to us what is going on. Just trust their authorities.

2) Said authorities are proven to be unreliable time and time again. Messing up big gime at least every once in a while.

Eggs are a good dietary option. Now they are not. Now they are once again.

You have been diagnosed with X, but actually you happen to have Y.

And so on... Entailing in loss of trust.

3) With a phone and internet connection, everyone can present oneself as an authority and look knowledgeable about a subject.

Now there is a battle over who is telling the truth: The new guys that have a very interesting narrative (such as conspiracy theories) or the old guys that can't be completely trusted.

So, what's the root of the problem? The whole 'Trust the authorities' that started this mess.

So you see it as more top down, where I see it as both, but more bottom up.

 

[Revoltingest]

They are not really studies, but syntheses of informed opinion that reflects the greater ability to disseminate and sustain propaganda that was an unavailable mechanism in the past. Also is reflected a degradation in the manner of political groups.

What was once radical conspiracies relegated to the margins are now able to trot out to center stage and be performed for target audiences and much more widely on heavy rotation.

I don't see it as anything new in content, but in extent.

I don't even see increased extent.
Perhaps it's rare for any of us to remember
the hideous ignorance of yesteryear.
What generation doesn't think that things
currently the worst ever, eh.
What's the matter with politics today?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I see it as a result and consequence of policies which have severely degraded not only the educational system, but also within the culture where teachers are undervalued and underpaid. When one looks at other countries, one finds that this is not the case and that there is greater respect for education and educated people overall.

Some of it may also be due to a sense of arrogance or a lack of desire to actually light a candle in the darkness. Even people who may be educated and/or scientifically literate sometimes appear to find pleasure in acting like the teacher who finds joy in mocking and ridiculing a wayward student. I've seen this happen quite a bit to the point where I think has actually had an effect on people's perceptions within the culture.

I can sense a degree of classism, which feeds into people's egos and sense of narcissism, where there's some underlying desire to browbeat and denigrate people just for being from the lower classes, who didn't have the same advantages and privileges of "the educated."

If the entire goal is to make large segments of the populace feel bad about themselves and fill them with angst and anger, then it seems that the "enlightened" and "educated" of our society have succeeded brilliantly. While they woefully suck at reducing the collective ignorance of society, they're quite adept at pissing people off and pouring gasoline on fires.

I think that is part of acting on the ignorance of groups that feel they have lost something and are being disenfranchised by authority. Some of the conspiracy theories seem ripe for playing on general ignorance by people pretending to be self-appointed experts.

It isn't new in that fact. What is new is the ability to to extend the reach of these things and promote idea that people are hearing experts they trust when they are not experts at all.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I don't even see increased extent.
Perhaps it's rare for any of us to remember
the hideous ignorance of yesteryear.
What generation doesn't think that things
currently the worst ever, eh.
What's the matter with politics today?

I don't think that the idea is wrong this time. We have already seen erroneous information lead to wrong-headed action that had serious consequences. We have seen people raised to leadership positions based on perceived abilities that don't really exist. The only ability seems to be in lying and repeating using technology to reach further and wider.

I'm not convinced it is just "the sky is falling".

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I don't even see increased extent.
Perhaps it's rare for any of us to remember
the hideous ignorance of yesteryear.
What generation doesn't think that things
currently the worst ever, eh.
What's the matter with politics today?

I love that movie by the way. Ann Margaret! Wow!

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I don't know if people are more ignorant, but ignorance seems to be more widely promoted and nurtured amidst a field of people increasingly claiming expert knowledge of subjects they clearly known nothing about.

I don't pay any attention to celebrity lives in any organized way, but I know things about the lives of the Kardashians that I have interest in knowing.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think that the idea is wrong this time. We have already seen erroneous information lead to wrong-headed action that had serious consequences. We have seen people raised to leadership positions based on perceived abilities that don't really exist. The only ability seems to be in lying and repeating using technology to reach further and wider.

I'm not convinced it is just "the sky is falling".

Ignorance is different these days because bad information
is so easily disseminated. But this points to how relatively
difficult it was in earlier times to spread cromulent info.
I can recall in the 50s how religion held much more power
over people...how bigotry towards, blacks, Asians, gays,
& other "undesirables" was more rife & vicious.
Young'ns today aren't aware of what it was like then.
They know only what they see now, & believe it to
be unique in severity.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't know if people are more ignorant, but ignorance seems to be more widely promoted and nurtured amidst a field of people increasingly claiming expert knowledge of subjects they clearly known nothing about.

I don't pay any attention to celebrity lives in any organized way, but I know things about the lives of the Kardashians that I have interest in knowing.

As I have read it, it is sometimes explain with the fact on the Internet you can find any group you like so you it results in a silo and in-group effect.

 

[Koldo]

So you see it as more top down, where I see it as both, but more bottom up.

Not exactly.
It is a pervading cultural aspect. If skepticism had been fostered in the first place, and if authorities had to earn credibility, we wouldn't be here talking about this problem. But we, collectively, took the shortcut and became prone to believe in self-proclaimed authorities because they have a degree or because an institution gave them power. And now that we no longer consider those degrees and institutions as reliable, anyone with a phone can claim to be an authority.

 

[Stevicus]

I think that is part of acting on the ignorance of groups that feel they have lost something and are being disenfranchised by authority. Some of the conspiracy theories seem ripe for playing on general ignorance by people pretending to be self-appointed experts.

It isn't new in that fact. What is new is the ability to to extend the reach of these things and promote idea that people are hearing experts they trust when they are not experts at all.

In previous times, it was not especially vital that the common people have knowledge of science at the PhD level, since most people's vocations did not require that level of knowledge. As long as the people received reasonable assurances that their government was working in good faith to safeguard their rights and support the needs of the citizenry, then they wouldn't feel disenfranchised by authority.

It's not really the ignorance which is the problem, since most people in society will be mostly ignorant by default. But when there's a trust relationship between the rulers and the ruled which is broken, that's where the problems come in. That's what is "new," although not that new, since it started under Reagan, but we're seeing the long-term consequences of it now.

 

[Stevicus]

What was once radical conspiracies relegated to the margins are now able to trot out to center stage and be performed for target audiences and much more widely on heavy rotation.

I'm not so sure about that. I recall during the 70s when conspiracies about JFK, the CIA, the military, and even about UFOs were treated as serious conjecture and speculation, not just relegated to the looney bin, as what started to occur after Reagan.

 

[Audie]

Bobby Azarian is a cognitive neuroscientist and science journalist whose articles I have found interesting and useful. Recently, I came across a couple of his articles dealing with what appears to be a growing popularity of ignorance and increasing stupidity that Azarian considers and existential threat to modern society.

A neuroscientist explains the problem of ignorance and how we can fight it
"Being ignorant about a particular topic isn’t shameful. None of us know everything — that’s an impossible task. Ignorance does not come from a lack of education, but an unwillingness to seek education. Ignorance is a consequence of refusing to change your beliefs when reality is constantly contradicting them."

Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
"Stupidity is a consequence of a failure to be aware of one’s own limitations, and this type of cognitive failure has a scientific name: the Dunning-Kruger effect."

These two subjects are of much interest to me, considering the proliferation of conspiracy theories that people are using as the basis for decision making and the almost gleeful celebration of ignorance and near rejection of education as "elitist" in some quarters. Couple that with a growing population of those rejecting expert opinion in favor of their own unearned expertise and I think that we do have a growing threat to our future.

We are all ignorant to a degree relevant to the the subject under consideration, but many people seem to no longer question anything that fits with the model they live by regardless of how irrational or ridiculous it might be. If it feeds into what they want to believe, it is uncommon to see the unbelievable believed. At the same time we see a growing number of people that assume subject matter expertise of subjects they don't seem to know much or anything about. How can we, as a nation build on a foundation like that? We lose progress and actually begin to regress culturally, educationally, scientifically as well as competitively on the international field. There appears to be no upside to ignorant and stupid outside of politics.

I'm including a link to a review explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect in more detail, but essentially, it is that many do not know what they do not know.
https://www.area-c54.it/public/dunning - kruger effect.pdf

We in China are not immune to this phenomenon of course, but!

I think it is far far worse in the USA.
There is the most profound difference in the whole cultural attitude toward education.
There is no huge religion like fundamentalist Christianity that promotes, glorifies,
demands willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, an antimscience mindset

The trailer park ofv he mind. Inhabited by the lowest rungs of the socio economic/ education ladder.

Of course it's a huge threat to America's future.

There are sooo many smart ambitious people
in S/ E Asia who don't indulge in such idiocy,
and are oh- so ready to run over life's lovers.

I know some think their god will protect them,
and establish them as inheritors of the earth.

Realistically, though, as I've noted before, there will be no angel with or without flaming sword guarding the gates to their trailer parks.

 

[Revoltingest]

We in China are not immune to this phenomenon of course, but!

I think it is far far worse in the USA.

Hah!
China is far more ignorant because of the strictly
controlled access to info & government propaganda.
As Uncle Duke said...
China is the world's largest penal colony.

Of course, this doesn't apply to your ilk, who live
with greater freedom than the mainland masses.

 

[Audie]

Hah!
China is far more ignorant because of the strictly
controlled access to info & government propaganda.
As Uncle Duke said...
China is the world's largest penal colony.

Of course, this doesn't apply to your ilk, who live
with greater freedom than the mainland masses.

Whatever you zactly think goes on In China
you know ignorance is not a cultural imperative.

 

[Revoltingest]

Whatever you zactly think goes on In China
you know ignorance is not a cultural imperative.

It's a governmental imperative.
But culturally, they have some loopy notions,
eg, rhinoceros horns as an aphrodisiac.

 

[Audie]

It's a governmental imperative.
But culturally, they have some loopy notions,
eg, rhinoceros horns as an aphrodisiac.

Think what you like. We are coming for you.