The Existential Threat of Ignorance and Stupidity in America

[Heyo]

Yes, that's one of the factors, and it holds true for the US as well. It's not the only reason innovation happens, though.

By far not. Culture is more like an influence on certain results than a reason for it. And if we look at the results, like patents filed in innovation or Nobel Prizes in science, we see that western culture seems to be more conducive to innovation and scientific breakthroughs than eastern culture. (Even when we take into account that patents and Nobel Prizes are western constructs.)
But if we look at education up to high school, the west seems to lose it's mojo. If we stop valuing education, we will be behind the east in a few years. The latest PISA scores have China, Singapore, Japan and South Korea in the Top 5.

 

[Debater Slayer]

By far not. Culture is more like an influence on certain results than a reason for it. And if we look at the results, like patents filed in innovation or Nobel Prizes in science, we see that western culture seems to be more conducive to innovation and scientific breakthroughs than eastern culture. (Even when we take into account that patents and Nobel Prizes are western constructs.)
But if we look at education up to high school, the west seems to lose it's mojo. If we stop valuing education, we will be behind the east in a few years. The latest PISA scores have China, Singapore, Japan and South Korea in the Top 5.

I think the factors influencing such things are more varied and complex than a simple cultural difference. Various cultures around the world have had periods of prosperity and stagnation. Of course, a culture that encouraged innovation would be a factor, but I don't know how big that one aspect is or whether it's even the main factor in the West's high innovative output. Education is, as you mentioned, a significant element too, for example.

 

[Audie]

Yes, that's one of the factors, and it holds true for the US as well. It's not the only reason innovation happens, though.

It's a- sorry- but racist thing, Ive heard it a lot,
how them Asians can copy but they can't innovate.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's a- sorry- but racist thing, Ive heard it a lot,
how them Asians can copy but they can't innovate.

I don't think everyone who believes in the idea that "the West has the most innovative culture in the world" is racist, but most of the time, I find that notion to be a remnant of self-congratulatory Western sentiment, which was pervasive during much of the 20th century and especially during the Cold War. It seems to me that there's now enough evidence and global interconnection to dispel that notion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Keep thinkingvhat, America.
But you at least know better.

Plus I feel quite triggered by you calling me tiny.

Ys mean swab.

I know that every people everywhere have their
ignant, bigoted, stupid, & dangerous people.
Some have more than others, with the authoritarian
regimes being the worst.
I must be a little kind to China...too many family
connections from there & still there. (Don't
want me knees punched. They all know kung fu.)

 

[Audie]

I know that every people everywhere have their
ignant, bigoted, stupid, & dangerous people.
Some have more than others, with the authoritarian
regimes being the worst.
I must be a little kind to China...too many family
connections from there & still there. (Don't
want me knees punched. They all know kung fu.)

How many times have I been asked if I know kung fu.

Closest I can come is being able to direct someone to the Bruce Lee statue.

 

[Audie]

I don't think everyone who believes in the idea that "the West has the most innovative culture in the world" is racist, but most of the time, I find that notion to be a remnant of self-congratulatory Western sentiment, which was pervasive during much of the 20th century and especially during the Cold War. It seems to me that there's now enough evidence and global interconnection to dispel that notion.

It's the idea that Asians only imitate, can't innovated that's racist

 

[Revoltingest]

How many times have I been asked if I know kung fu.

I never asked cuz I know it's rude to imply
that it's possible you don't know kung fu.

I know schtick fu.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think everyone who believes in the idea that "the West has the most innovative culture in the world" is racist, but most of the time, I find that notion to be a remnant of self-congratulatory Western sentiment, which was pervasive during much of the 20th century and especially during the Cold War. It seems to me that there's now enough evidence and global interconnection to dispel that notion.

Moreover, we've many different races here innovating.
After all, Elijah McCoy was "The Real McCoy".
(He lived not too far from Revoltistan...next town over.)

 

[Debater Slayer]

Moreover, we've many different races here innovating.
After all, Elijah McCoy was "The Real McCoy".
(He lived not too far from Revoltistan...next town over.)

I'll say the West is good at attracting and incentivizing brilliant minds. Any country that knows how to attract talents and treats them well deserves to reap the rewards of such minds' work.

 

[Koldo]

What do you suggest the average scientist or expert should do in order to earn the trust of the average layperson? We saw first-hand that during the pandemic, some people distrusted experts and scholarly authority no matter the amount of evidence and credentials that were presented by the experts. Not even the statistics and other evidence concerning the loss of life and effects of disease worldwide sufficed to change the anti-scientific opinions that some had.

I have no doubt that some experts certainly don't deserve to be called authorities on their fields, but overall, I would say that trusting experts—while maintaining a baseline of skepticism and openness to new information—when it comes to expert matters such as science and medicine is a far safer and more reasonable bet than trying to use "common sense" without tempering it with expert knowledge. A lot of knowledge about the world is not necessarily intuitive or in line with some people's perception of "common sense."

1) Foster skepticism. If you make it an habit to, whenever you come across information that is impactful to your life, check around the web whether it is a hoax, from multiple different sources, the odds of believing in a hoax are going to decrease considerably. But this is learned behavior which needs to be fostered. It doesn't come naturally to everyone.

2) Scientists need to seize the last word. Whoever has the last word has the opportunity of speaking without being rebutted. If someone is talking nonsense and it is gaining traction, point the flaws in the reasoning and explain what is wrong with that rationale.

 

[exchemist]

It's the idea that Asians only imitate, can't innovated that's racist

Nobody is saying that. But one might argue, without any racism, that the Confucian culture may not stimulate the independent thought of individuals quite as much as the individualism Western culture inherited from the Ancient Greeks.

 

[Koldo]

What do you suggest the average scientist or expert should do in order to earn the trust of the average layperson? We saw first-hand that during the pandemic, some people distrusted experts and scholarly authority no matter the amount of evidence and credentials that were presented by the experts. Not even the statistics and other evidence concerning the loss of life and effects of disease worldwide sufficed to change the anti-scientific opinions that some had.

I have no doubt that some experts certainly don't deserve to be called authorities on their fields, but overall, I would say that trusting experts—while maintaining a baseline of skepticism and openness to new information—when it comes to expert matters such as science and medicine is a far safer and more reasonable bet than trying to use "common sense" without tempering it with expert knowledge. A lot of knowledge about the world is not necessarily intuitive or in line with some people's perception of "common sense."

One last thing: Here in Brazil during the pandemic, many doctors were prescribing ineffective medications like ivermectin. I kid you not.

 

[Debater Slayer]

1) Foster skepticism. If you make it an habit to, whenever you come across information that is impactful to your life, check around the web whether it is a hoax, from multiple different sources, the odds of believing in a hoax are going to decrease considerably. But this is learned behavior which needs to be fostered. It doesn't come naturally to everyone.

2) Scientists need to seize the last word. Whoever has the last word has the opportunity of speaking without being rebutted. If someone is talking nonsense and it is gaining traction, point the flaws in the reasoning and explain what is wrong with that rationale.

Agreed.

One last thing: Here in Brazil during the pandemic, many doctors were prescribing ineffective medications like ivermectin. I kid you not.

Same in Egypt. Ivermectin was removed from the official COVID treatment protocol in August 2022.

 

[Audie]

Nobody is saying that. But one might argue, without any racism, that the Confucian culture may not stimulate the independent thought of individuals quite as much as the individualism Western culture inherited from the Ancient Greeks.

Ok; nobody has said it to you.

They've said it to me.

Chinese culture and,society is quite
far from wonderful.

However, the thread isvi think,about.the
grave cultural / existential threat posed by
funfamentalst thinking.

When I said there's millions n nillions in S / E
who are smart tough and ambitioius, that
anti intellectualism is hardly vom
Emotive, I included India, Vietnam Japan, kotea...
Not just China.
And what insaid is true. But you arecwelcimevto ignore it and think its not so..

 

[Heyo]

It's the idea that Asians only imitate, can't innovated that's racist

The idea that Asians can't innovate is racist - that Asians don't innovate as much as Europeans (in the last 200 years) is a fact in evidence.
Historically the Chinese invented gun powder, rockets, the compass, printing with moveable letters and much more. Indians were the best mathematicians for a time (they "invented" (i.e. discovered) the zero).

 

[Audie]

The idea that Asians can't innovate is racist - that Asians don't innovate as much as Europeans (in the last 200 years) is a fact in evidence.
Historically the Chinese invented gun powder, rockets, the compass, printing with moveable letters and much more. Indians were the best mathematicians for a time (they "invented" (i.e. discovered) the zero).

I'd never think of you as a racist

 

[Heyo]

I'd never think of you as a racist

:friendly:

 

[Revoltingest]

Historically the Chinese invented gun powder, rockets, the compass, printing with moveable letters and much more. Indians were the best mathematicians for a time (they "invented" (i.e. discovered) the zero).

And they invented....

Go (game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although the Chinese took a back seat to Japanese
& Korean players during Mao's tyranny.

 

[Heyo]

And they invented....

Go (game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although the Chinese took a back seat to Japanese
& Korean players during Mao's tyranny.

Even earlier. The Japanese basically took the game and made it their own in the 16th century. They had professional players then and no amateur could compete against them.
(Btw: the Chinese name for GO is Wei Chi, which approximately translates to "mind power". A much better name than "five".)