The "F word" for those who hate the word "feminist"

[Riverwolf]

Games do not exist in a vacuum but most games are not made or meant to be taken as social commentary either.

Not the point. The effect is a subtle psychological one, and the pervasiveness of the female-disempowering content is not done on purpose.

People of differing opinions will think differently. Conservatives will say liberals are too powerful, and liberals vice-versa. This is no different. If there's such a problem, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Make your voice heard with your money. Feminism is causing itself so much harm by getting into issues like gaming, instead of focusing on more important issues. Like, you know, equality and rights?

Don't underestimate the importance of art. Feminists are doing the very things that you want them to do.

Furthermore, don't mistake talking about these issues in youtube videos as doing nothing; it's, in fact, no different than feminists who write books about the issues. Sarkeesian's videos have, in fact, had a major positive effect on smaller developers, as many are being more careful about their design.

Appealing to wallet-voting is a waste of time, since our wallets vote for the product being marketed, not the product being bought, and digitally-distributed software cannot be refunded in the US at this time.

 

[Riverwolf]

I have.
Will you answer my question (which was posed first, & wasn't rhetorical)?

If you've received thousands of rape and death threats a day, for many years of your life, for stating a viewpoint that you hold, I think you can relate to the knee-jerk reaction, whether fair or not, that anyone who self-identifies against that viewpoint is a potential threat to your life, and that of your family.

 

[bobhikes]

RF established a safe space for feminists to go if we wish to discuss issues without being repeatedly derailed into why feminism isn't even needed, how feminists are angry ugly hairy man-haters, and a host of other derailment tactics demonstrated by other members.

This does not stop having feminist debates in the open forums. Which you see and are participating in right now.

I think you'd be scared to death to discuss/debate these things openly in public if simply mentioning them got you thousands of rape and death threats a day, both against you and your family/friends.

As usual this is not a thread to debate the specifics of feminism without derailing it. As to being scared to death to discuss/debate in the RF. I find this unusual. I have been warned for just posting once in the Feminist directory. I believe the RF would take threats serious and ban the person, and probably notify the police.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It seems to me that the faults of some self-identified feminists are used as an excuse bash the movement as a whole all too often. Any given political party (for example) one supports is bound to have extremists and intolerant people, but that doesn't seem to stop many of the people who bash feminism from adopting certain political stances or supporting a party that represents their views despite the presence of some extremists in it.

I think that if people generally treated feminism as they would any other movement, there wouldn't be nearly as much nitpicking and hunting for faults in it as there is now. That it is treated differently by so many people is an indication of a larger cultural attitude more than anything else, in my opinion.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

The problems I've found in discussing feminism weren't about challenging its very existence.
I've repeatedly stated that I favor both gender equality & the existence of feminism, but
feminists still lowered the boom.

You were just playing Devil-Advocate in your criticism of it of course.

 

[Riverwolf]

But it's not.

If said, "black people should be slaves" or "9/11 is a lie" and I got numerous threats made against me and my innocent family, would I be automatically be right because I got threats?

Those two claims, when made seriously by people, are not in response to personal subjugation on a grand scale.

Feminism exists because women are subjugated, often with rape and death threats for example, and so when feminists speak out and get those threats because they spoke out, that just proves their point that something is seriously wrong and needs to be corrected.

Yes there are terrible, sexist people who only would threaten women for the sake of being women. There's no denying that.

And that number is much, much higher than I think anyone may have realized. Even I didn't realize how serious it was until the sheer amount of abuse Sarkeesian got for simply stating an opinion was made clear, and then I realized that dozens of internet feminists will often quit for the same reason.

 

[Riverwolf]

As usual this is not a thread to debate the specifics of feminism without derailing it. As to being scared to death to discuss/debate in the RF. I find this unusual. I have been warned for just posting once in the Feminist directory. I believe the RF would take threats serious and ban the person, and probably notify the police.

I wasn't talking about RF, because you're correct in your assessment. I was talking about the movement in general.

 

[bobhikes]

It seems to me that the faults of some self-identified feminists are used as an excuse bash the movement as a whole all too often. Any given political party (for example) one supports is bound to have extremists and intolerant people, but that doesn't seem to stop many of the people who bash feminism from adopting certain political stances or supporting a party that represents their views despite the presence of some extremists in it.

I think that if people generally treated feminism as they would any other movement, there wouldn't be nearly as much nitpicking and hunting for faults in it as there is now. That it is treated differently by so many people is an indication of a larger cultural attitude more than anything else, in my opinion.

People always bash movements, for example I hate the Tea Party and point out their faults constantly. The issue is the Tea Party and its members stand and take it. Feminists in general don't. There might be something to the death threats but I don't know if it is worse than politicians, the religious and the famous get.

 

[yoda89]

<yawn>

Heard this all before in a 20 million different ways. It was old then and it is getting even older now.

</yawn>

You must have heard a lot of people to have heard it 20 million ways. Perhaps, your defense would be better suited if you actually had any.

 

[yoda89]

Something that always interests me is how many people hate something based upon their imaginings and wild speculations, rather than on fact. Like in the above post. Eighty percent imaginings, twenty percent fact.

How do you know exactly that I have not discussed this with many people? Tell me where are these facts and images that you speak of. Just because I disagree suddenly I am wrong. I think feminism has a lot of good concepts but I'm not in awe of someone saying people should be equal. That or blaming other people for their problems.

 

[xkatz]

No, you mentioned why Sarkeesian is seen as "annoying." That is what I was responding to.

Because she has no expertise in video games other than to confront social issues percieved in them.

She brings up points to consider how various popular culture entertainment like gaming does not provide a gender neutral platform, where men and women are represented without objectification or dehumanization. And where female characters are fully active in moving the plot and action along as much as male characters.

Well most video games are marketed to a specific demographic who buy them, so it makes sense that many are not gender neutral. Just like my little sister doesn't play MMOs, I don't think most men would read magazines like Us Weekly. It's not necessarily right or fair, but guys and girls have different interests and different things that'll be marketed at them.

If feminists want to bring positive change to gaming, the best way will have to be by working within the industry, whether it be establishing their own companies, making their own games, or working within already established brands.

If that is annoying, the question is "why?" Does discussing disparity make people uncomfortable? And if so, why is that?

A fair point to make.

 

[Sunstone]

How do you know exactly that I have not discussed this with many people? Tell me where are these facts and images that you speak of. Just because I disagree suddenly I am wrong. I think feminism has a lot of good concepts but I'm not in awe of someone saying people should be equal. That or blaming other people for their problems.

Childish complaints and reasoning.

 

[freethinker44]

I think that if people generally treated feminism as they would any other movement, there wouldn't be nearly as much nitpicking and hunting for faults in it as there is now.

Feminism is treated like every other movement. I can't think of any social/political/religious group that isn't judged by their extreme elements, maybe the smaller, lesser known groups can get away without being judged by this standard but any mainstream group is forced to answer for their extremists. Capitalism, socialism, democrat, republican, libertarian, liberal, conservative, pretty much any religion, etc..., all have to deal with negative perception caused by extremists. So why should feminism be exempt?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You must have heard a lot of people to have heard it 20 million ways. Perhaps, your defense would be better suited if you actually had any.

If you had any actual argument based on something you might be unfamiliar with i.e. reality instead of coming up with a lame *** strawman then I have might have taken the time to rebut it. I rebut psychotic hallucinations or debate the people who have them.

 

[yoda89]

Childish complaints and reasoning.

I am in awe of your lack of debating skills. Especially since your run this thing or are at least on it 24/7. What's up with that? Have you been listening to a panda bear on how to defend your position.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Feminism is treated like every other movement. I can't think of any social/political/religious group that isn't judged by their extreme elements, maybe the smaller, lesser known groups can get away without being judged by this standard but any mainstream group is forced to answer for their extremists. Capitalism, socialism, democrat, republican, libertarian, liberal, conservative, pretty much any religion, etc..., all have to deal with negative perception caused by extremists. So why should feminism be exempt?

At least here, RF is more tolerant of what would be considered trolling against feminism than trolling against atheism. Many blatant misrepresentative posts abound about feminism, and members are still free to do so. Same goes with a lot of blatant misrepresentation against women.

It finally was not exempt after it got its own DIR. And treated with the same level of respect as other movements.

 

[yoda89]

If you had any actual argument based on something you might be unfamiliar with i.e. reality instead of coming up with a lame *** strawman then I have might have taken the time to rebut it. I rebut psychotic hallucinations or debate the people who have them.

If my remarks and opinions upset you I really don't care. She asked a question and I gave my opinion. Just because I don't find everything with feminism correct and speak up about it probably scares you. Given how much it probably has to do with your self identity. You do know the belief of Anarcho-Gnosticism deals far away from providing evidence and is far more likely hallucinations.

 

[xkatz]

At least here, RF is more tolerant of what would be considered trolling against feminism than trolling against atheism. Many blatant misrepresentative posts abound about feminism, and members are still free to do so. Same goes with a lot of blatant misrepresentation against women.

It finally was not exempt after it got its own DIR. And treated with the same level of respect as other movements.

Have you considered asking for a feminist or women's issue subforum? There is already a men's so I don't see why women couldn't request their own (unless I am just not seeing it).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Because she has no expertise in video games other than to confront social issues percieved in them.

Her educational background is social structures present in media. She has a masters degree, so her expertise can include gaming (which is a popular form of media).

I think she has plenty to say on the subject.

Well most video games are marketed to a specific demographic who buy them, so it makes sense that many are not gender neutral. Just like my little sister doesn't play MMOs, I don't think most men would read magazines like Us Weekly. It's not necessarily right or fair, but guys and girls have different interests and different things that'll be marketed at them.

That's quite the assumption that is used by various campaigns to convince women and girls they aren't good or interested in sports, STEM fields, and science fiction. My experience has presented a rather different scenario.

If feminists want to bring positive change to gaming, the best way will have to be by working within the industry, whether it be establishing their own companies, making their own games, or working within already established brands.

We do. There are plenty of issues brought up in the industry about discrepancy in pay, representation, and cases of harassment and assault have become quite a concern.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Have you considered asking for a feminist or women's issue subforum? There is already a men's so I don't see why women couldn't request their own (unless I am just not seeing it).

There is a feminism DIR for feminists only. It's been productive, useful, and a breath of fresh air.