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The failure of the Left and what the Far-Right gets right.

As beautiful and inspirational as MLKs speech was, the message was even more important. It basically revolved around freedom regardless of sex, religion and then of course, race. Kind of hard to argue against that, right?

Martin Luther King I Have a Dream Speech - American Rhetoric

Why do you think this speech is remembered rather than the hundreds of others on the same topic during the civil rights movement? Why is this speech studied as exemplary rhetoric, while others are unknown?

Only because MLK was a master at appealing to emotion, that's what gives his speeches such power. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Emotional appeals can be used to support good, moral, factually based arguments. They can be used to for devious purposes also. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an appeal to emotion though, (almost) all memorable pieces of political communication are heavy on the emotional aspects.

You can't do effective mass political communication without appealing to emotions, that's all I was saying.
 
They come from non-scientific articles and/or are talking about specific examples.

They are scientific sources (2 peer reviewed, one not) that discuss specific examples that show the effect of emotion on cognition to make general points about cognition, which is what we were talking about.

By your logic Augustus we should never teach anyone anything via logic.

"All effective political campaigns utilise appeals to emotion because of the powerful effect emotion has on our cognitive processes" does not also mean "Logic is useless and no one should ever use logic ever for any reason ever".

Ethos, pathos, logos...
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Why do you think this speech is remembered rather than the hundreds of others on the same topic during the civil rights movement? Why is this speech studied as exemplary rhetoric, while others are unknown?

Only because MLK was a master at appealing to emotion, that's what gives his speeches such power. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Emotional appeals can be used to support good, moral, factually based arguments. They can be used to for devious purposes also. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an appeal to emotion though, (almost) all memorable pieces of political communication are heavy on the emotional aspects.

You can't do effective mass political communication without appealing to emotions, that's all I was saying.

"There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an appeal to emotion though."

Yes, there is. I've said this before. Emotions do not convey the situation correctly. Emotions are the worst indicator of reality. To use and justify emotions as source of action when our lives are not near danger, is wrong. If followers want to be blindly led to a goal without knowing the result of the goal and how to attain the goal, then by all means, we should use emotional appeal to ensure the success of that goal. However, every individual has to look beyond their emotions and understand if that goal or any parts of that goal is feasible, reasonable, logical, rational, moral, ethical, and so on.

"You can't do effective mass political communication without appealing to emotions, that's all I was saying."

Alright, I find this statement hard to argue against. A politician's main tool is emotion appeal. In the context of political communication, I can't disagree with you. If I were to become a politician in today's political climate, I have to use emotional appeal. Have we settled here because we assume the human species can't further evolve from emotions? I feel that is what you and others are declaring, that we as human beings are somewhat at the mercy of our emotions.

As a society and civilization, one that is still trying to mature, we as individuals have to be able to filter out the emotions. We have to rationally and logically understand what is being presented to us. We act on the knowledge and information conveyed, not the emotions alone. Just because it makes us happy doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

[Edited] I've reread your statement and the confusion, more so on my part, is the use of the word intrinsically. If we use the context of what is defined today as being natural, then yes, I can't disagree with that statement. But like my point about accepting too much of human nature, we simply need to further evolve ourselves. I truly believe this is a choice that we can further evolve.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
@Augustus and @lewisnotmiller

On a side note, I just want to say that I appreciate this discussion. I'm quite enjoying it and I hope there are no hard feelings on any of our disagreements.

Thanks

Exactly the same for me. It's great to discuss an issue with some depth and have a proper discussion.
However, if you'd prefer a simple argument, I can always resort to calling you a poopyhead or something.
 

Electus de Lumine

Magician of Light
It wasn't. It was providing information you never bothered to look up yourself



Nope. You didn't bother to actually check the sources.



No it does as I pointed out your didn't bother to check the sources.




I don't. You made a mistake, simple as that.

Claiming that I did not check the sources over and over will get you no where.
 

Electus de Lumine

Magician of Light
They are scientific sources (2 peer reviewed, one not) that discuss specific examples that show the effect of emotion on cognition to make general points about cognition, which is what we were talking about.

Yes about a general population. If I examined most people's sexuality I could draw the conclusion that all humans are heterosexual. Would that be correct?

"All effective political campaigns utilise appeals to emotion because of the powerful effect emotion has on our cognitive processes" does not also mean "Logic is useless and no one should ever use logic ever for any reason ever".

It seems that you think that appealing to the masses with emotion is better than getting people to believe things for the right reasons.

Ethos, pathos, logos...

Prove that the idea of ethos, pathos, and logos all being equally important is correct.
 
Yes, there is. I've said this before. Emotions do not convey the situation correctly. Emotions are the worst indicator of reality. To use and justify emotions as source of action when our lives are not near danger, is wrong. If followers want to be blindly led to a goal without knowing the result of the goal and how to attain the goal, then by all means, we should use emotional appeal to ensure the success of that goal. However, every individual has to look beyond their emotions and understand if that goal or any parts of that goal is feasible, reasonable, logical, rational, moral, ethical, and so on.


Emotions are what conveys our humanity, and can also be the best indicator of reality too. Depends on the situation.

Alright, I find this statement hard to argue against. A politician's main tool is emotion appeal. In the context of political communication, I can't disagree with you. If I were to become a politician in today's political climate, I have to use emotional appeal. Have we settled here because we assume the human species can't further evolve from emotions? I feel that is what you and others are declaring, that we as human beings are somewhat at the mercy of our emotions.

To some extent we are, not completely but to some extent. We have evolved to experience emotions for a reason, fear, anger, love, happiness, etc.

Emotions are what humans do, they might cause you to er or they might motivate you to pursue what is just. We live through emotions though.

To use a silly example, let's say :imp: is cooking babies in cauldrons to make a meaty broth and :babyangel: wants to encourage people to stop this taking place. How does this happen without emotions coming into play? Would emotions in this sense be wrong?

Why would it be necessary or desirable to evolve beyond the natural feeling of anger?

How can a charity encourage you to donate money to save help people in a far off land with whom you have no connection without playing on your emotions?

Even thanking someone for helping you out is appealing to their emotions.

The closest you get to emotion free communication is a scientific paper and I'm pretty happy most communication does not take that form (all the best scientific writing contains some humanity in it anyway).

As a society and civilization, one that is still trying to mature, we as individuals have to be able to filter out the emotions. We have to rationally and logically understand what is being presented to us. We act on the knowledge and information conveyed, not the emotions alone. Just because it makes us happy doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Seems like we are saying pretty much the same thing. The only difference is you seem to put a higher stock on how much logic alone can achieve. For me, it is almost nothing.

The most basic aspect of professional persuasive communication is WIIFM (what's in it for me). If there is no focus on WIIFM then you're wasting your time.

The thing is that WIIFM based on pure logic is really limited to narrow material self-interest, there is nothing in it for me to donate money to charity unless you appeal to my emotions. Often the only reward we get for doing things against our narrow material self-interest are of the emotional kind.

Before the Super Bowl there was a lot of talk about what Lady Gaga would do, was she going to bash Trump?

Had she done so, lots of Dems would have cheered and said 'wow she was great, she really socked it to Trump'. Pubs would have just dismissed her as just another liberal entertainer and she would have had zero effect on them.

Instead she opened with a patriotic song (think it was God bless America) with stars and stripes lighting up the sky, but at the end stopped singing and spoke the line 'with liberty and justice for all' and left that hanging.

For a liberal entertainer trying to influence those who strongly disagree with her during a live performance (rather than preaching to the choir), that is about the best you can do. Associating your message with their positive emotions.

[Edited] I've reread your statement and the confusion, more so on my part, is the use of the word intrinsically. If we use the context of what is defined today as being natural, then yes, I can't disagree with that statement. But like my point about accepting too much of human nature, we simply need to further evolve ourselves. I truly believe this is a choice that we can further evolve.

An appeal to emotion can be moral, neutral or unethical, it just depends on how it is used.

In terms of biologically evolving, this is obviously not possible short term. So we are stuck with our genetic make up, and it makes no sense to pretend we are a blank slate.

If we do acknowledge how we are hardwired though, then we can take steps to mitigate (never eliminate) the negative effects. Really though, this is something that can only be done on a personal level, and is unlikely to become a society wide mission.

Overall, it isn't desirable to eliminate appeals to emotion, in an ideal world appeals to emotion would be grounded in honesty, good intentions and a solid factual/logical base.
 
Prove that they belong in that order.

Ethos is source credibility - A parent who tells a young child something will be believed instantly (max ethos). Hillary Clinton could say the world was round and some Republicans would argue that she was lying, well only a slight exaggeration (min ethos). If you don't find a source credible, you don't accept what they say.

Pathos - emotion influences how we interpret facts and apply logical reasoning. Emotion is closer to the surface and more easily reached. Emotions can heuristically influence people who are not engaged with the message. Emotions drive our actions to a large extent. etc.

Logos: Requires someone to be engaged with the topic. Can easily be dismissed (FAKE NEWS! #alternativefacts). Requires the target to accept the logic and its conclusions. etc.

Ethos is always essential. Pathos and logos can be used according to the situation, but pathos is far more adaptable and impactful in general. Also, all 3 often overlap significantly (showing great knowledge and solid reasoning establishes ethos for example) Any of this you disagree with?
 

Electus de Lumine

Magician of Light
Ethos is source credibility - A parent who tells a young child something will be believed instantly (max ethos). Hillary Clinton could say the world was round and some Republicans would argue that she was lying, well only a slight exaggeration (min ethos). If you don't find a source credible, you don't accept what they say.

Pathos - emotion influences how we interpret facts and apply logical reasoning. Emotion is closer to the surface and more easily reached. Emotions can heuristically influence people who are not engaged with the message. Emotions drive our actions to a large extent. etc.

Logos: Requires someone to be engaged with the topic. Can easily be dismissed (FAKE NEWS! #alternativefacts). Requires the target to accept the logic and its conclusions. etc.

Ethos is always essential. Pathos and logos can be used according to the situation, but pathos is far more adaptable and impactful in general. Also, all 3 often overlap significantly (showing great knowledge and solid reasoning establishes ethos for example) Any of this you disagree with?

What is your evidence that ALL people not only evaluate things in these ways but in that order?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.
I don't think that right-wingers will let you........... go off into the woods etc....... I think that right-wingers will insist that you come out of the woods and earn to pay for everything that you need.

Right-wingers will make folks go out and work hard for every dime and dollar that folks need, for food, heat, security, a home et al.

Right-wingers are just..... very right wing about such things. They're just a bit careless about the weak, the disabled, the needy, the sick, the unemployed and the unemployable.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Right-wingers are just..... very right wing about such things. They're just a bit careless about the weak, the disabled, the needy, the sick, the unemployed and the unemployable.
Left wingers are very generous....with someone else's money.


(Retaliation!)
 
What is your evidence that ALL people not only evaluate things in these ways but in that order?

I suppose there might be some people with abnormal cognitive development that are unable to feel emotion.

Honestly, this is a really boring conversation seeing as you don't seem to want to discuss anything and short of a scientific study of every single person in the world it would just be dismissed out of hand, and even then it might still be arbitrarily dismissed as 'non-scientific'.

If you wish to believe that there are sizeable numbers of people out there who are purely logical in all of their decisions and unaffected by emotion, then you would be going against all available evidence.

If you have evidence to support your view, I would be willing to reconsider this statement, but as yet, you have only presented an opinion.

If you are actually interested in the topic, then you should read some of the sources I mentioned. If you are not interested but just want to win an argument then continue to think whatever you like.
 
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