The fear of the alternative isn't belief.
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The fall of man; Free will
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
waitasec
Veteran Member
what is it then? You either believe the consequence will happen or not.
The choice wasn't to eat the fruit; it was to escape responsibility.
Without their own ability to make moral choices (which children have, by the way), they needed someone to tell them what to do. When they disobeyed, they didn't show shame or regret. Rather, they tried to basically say: "He/she MADE me do it!" Now that they have moral knowledge, they had no excuse for this attitude.
What does that have to do with believing in Christ? On one hand, one belief, on the other another.
Fear is not belief.
It's not the only basis for Christian salvation; there are plenty of Christian groups that deny the authority of the Tanakh.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Does the god in your bible have dominion over your free will?
How is it that god being the creator of all be a jealous god? since god didn't create other gods, the god in your bible is jealous of the fact he cannot control your freedom of will.
Well, technically, aham brahman, so...
Uh... if you'll take a look at my religion, you'd see that I am, in fact, Hindu. The Bible, while a great (albeit incomplete IMO) collection of Jewish and Christian writings, isn't my primary source for spiritual instruction and inspiration.
Now, if you'd be so kind as to stay on topic: free will as it relates to the story of Adam and Eve. The idea of God being jealous didn't show up 'till later in the Torah, and I haven't read those passages with any of the commentaries, yet, so I can't speak with any authority on that subject. I did study the Adam and Eve story a bit, so I do know what I'm talking about there. (Though an actual scholar or Jew would be a greater authority than I.)
waitasec
Veteran Member
:sorry1: my apologies, all I'm trying to get across here is that in the creation story we are led to think that the evil was the type of choice adam made not the fact that he had the power to choose. in the creation story god held adam accountable for something he did not understand; disobedience = evil.
he hadn't tasted the fruit yet when deciding to disobey. so how was he to know it was evil?
Like I said: he ate in innocence. You have once again ignored my alternative, which I got from a scholarly commentary: that the sin was not taking responsibility for disobeying.
And by the way, most of the Christians and Jews I've talked to do not take this creation story literally, but metaphorically. Not all Jews and Christians follow the doctrine of sola scriptura. Fundamentalists make up a minority of the Christian population, believe it or not.
There was no good or evil at that time. There was only God and the Garden. God gave Adam an instruction; that should have been enough. The only thing you can really fault God for was not using repetition to help drive the message across, because that's what most children need. Even then, we can't be sure that God didn't repeat the instruction later. After all, we aren't told how much time passed between chapters 2 and 3.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Please explain...
fear is an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous
waitasec
Veteran Member
read my OP...
According to the Judeo/Christian belief, Adam KNOWINGLY made the EVIL decision by disobeying God. But how? He hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit as of yet, which comes from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So there was no way for him to understand disobedience was evil, was there? He was in a perpetual state of innocence. By innocently partaking of the forbidden fruit his eyes were then opened. The only way this would make sense is if freedom of will is an evil in the eyes of the god in the bible (Adam was told not to eat it, but how can god expect for Adam to understand the implication since he had no prior knowledge disobedience was evil). God also took freedom away from the woman and subjected her to mans rule. Genesis 3:16. Remember, all was good before the opportunity of choice was established.
He didn't take responsibility because he blamed Eve, but that is after the fact not before, do you see what I mean
And after that, he would have naturally realized that what he did was evil. Realizing what he had done, he ought to have taken responsibility because of the shame that would naturally accompany the realization. Instead, he tried to run from shame.
I honestly don't quite understand why you are being so aggressive with your argument. It's just a story.
waitasec
Veteran Member
No he ran away because his eyes were opened to his nakedness (what's wrong with being naked anyway?) which is another interesting point, he did hide from shame of disobedience he hid 'cause he was embarrassed to be naked.
Again, I'm pointing this out because so many christians believe the original sin was what Adam chose to do NOT the fact that the sin was actually having the freedom of will, because the god in the Judeo/Christian belief cannot have dominion over any ones free will, right? Free will is the real enemy of the god in the bible. There is no free will if you choose to follow christ because of the FEAR of the alternative...It's a choice made out of fear. If christians claim that god IS love, is there fear in love? do you follow what I'm saying?
Not nakedness, but shame. I think you're missing a whole lot of the story (namely the symbolic parts). Shame isn't possible without knowledge of (or a concept of) guilt.
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And here, you are touching on the symbolic meaning of the story. Without free will (ego) there is no guilt, shame, responsibility, shirking of responsibility, or sin. That is the moral of the story.
Free will isn't an enemy of "God", it is as much "God" as anything else that is. Following Christ isn't about fear --it's about a right understanding of self (ego) and application of selflessness.
waitasec
Veteran Member
It seems that living for an after life of eternal bliss comes from EGO rather than a selfless one because it is all about the individual being awarded according to their deeds for wanting an eternal blissful afterlife in the first place.
all was good before god gave adam the option to obey or not, adam did not KNOW that disobedience was evil because his eyes where not yet opened and yes as soon as their eyes were opened they were ashamed to be NAKED, why the nakedness and not the fact that they disobeyed?
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Christianity isn't about the afterlife it's about this life.
You appear more attached to a literal interpretation of a myth than many who subscribe to the myth.
You also seem rather angry with this God you don't believe in.
I'd say that's true. On the other hand, living in an afterlife of eternal bliss (salvation) comes from surrendering (sacrificing) ego, right here, right now. That is living in Christ (to me).
Adam's decision, and inherently his ability to decide, is a story element, one that advances the narrative from our characters living in a state of harmony to a state of knowing of self/ego. With that, in subsequent story, comes all the things that are born of egoistic being: a sense of self in relation to others, ownership (of body, of mind, of the concepts we generate), free will (self-determination), disobedience/wronging of others, responsibility, shame, guilt, fear (which leads to the Dark Side) --these are part of our conceptual make-up that we put on and wear around all day long (hell).
It's a story of us, as we are here, now.
jml03
Member
God is all powerful, the Almighty - I highly doubt freewill would be a huge obstacle for Him if He didn't want us to have it. He created it after all.