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The fall of man; Free will
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
waitasec
Veteran Member
this is the mystery, life and death
all i know is now and all i can do is to be true to myself and to others
sure we make mistakes, but then again, life is a ride...enjoy it, relish it
i guess i'm preaching to the choir
gotsta go now peace out )(
Thief
Rogue Theologian
You said it backwards....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
This is the wisdom that puts your destiny in your hands.
It will be done unto you as you did unto others.
The angels await your arrival.
With fair warning dealt, you are now free to chose.
AnnaTheBeast
Member
waitasec
Veteran Member
ahh sam i gotta go!!!
sure you can, it's called forgiveness, at least is it for me
later...
jonman122
Active Member
fair warning of what, might i ask? your personal interpretation of a book written by men 2000 years ago that has no basis in fact?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Actually, that quote goes back a lot further.
Far enough, no one is really sure who said it first.
And my 'interpretation' is almost self explanatory.
But then you are asking...anyway.
Let's say I might be headed to heaven....just suppose for the moment...
it could happen.
When I get there...my brothers will ask...how did it go?
If you want generosity dealt on your head....
you first...here and now... unto your fellow man.
And you will receive in return, as many times as I have brothers.
Bruise my cheek...and you will be received as you received me...
as many times as I have brothers.
jonman122
Active Member
isn't this entirely against the "turn thy cheek" method Jesus taught? wasn't that a part of the basis of being Christian and not Jewish, the change in rules?
how did this go from "if your definition of free will is correct, than it is just an illusion" to "i'll smack your face if you smack mine, and then i'll also get my bro's to smack your face as well"
Thief
Rogue Theologian
The last part...now in red...
'an eye for an eye....a tooth for tooth'....Moses
Turn the other cheek is good advice.
I have actually done so...in the south end housing projects of a mid-size city.
First of all...it's not passive.
When you offer your other cheek, to someone who just struck you...
you should expect him to consider a repeat strike.
And if he thinks he can...he will.
Your action of offering the other cheek could be taken as a dare.
You had better know what you are doing.
But if you are able to avoid further confrontation...while keeping your teeth....
good for you.
It shows courage, willfulness, and a nature to refrain a compulsive return
of a violent act...with violence.
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jonman122
Active Member
i'm not even implying violence in any way, i'm saying i absolutely and completely disarmed your explanation for destiny and when you had literally nothing constructive to say about it other than "do unto others as you would have done unto you, this proves free will and destiny work together" then you have no logical reason to assert anything, that doesn't even make SENSE, in any way shape or form.
The definiton of destiny is something that is PRE-DETERMINED, something that has been determined before you even came in to being. It implies that your entire life, every decision you will ever make and indeed have ever made, was already set on a path that was made before you were even a figment in the imagination of your parents when they were children, or indeed, since the very beginning of known time itself.
it's_sam
Freak of Nature
How do you know God isnt standing with the "finsihed you" in heaven right now working to show you the next step to help you reach that potentiel? Lets say regardless of what they did to show you, you insisted on not listening and would hit anyone who disagreed? We are saying the same fate awaits you in death. It would be to learn your mistake but it would still be commin, its just a warning. Choose right and do not fear, if your mind is for others more then yourself their mind is what will be waiting for you to offer gifts of thanks, and friendship. You didnt disarm this thinking, you just still havnt made your connection of known to unknown. Wich unfortunately takes ALOT of time for all of us. I consider myself lucky knowing what i know at the age of 30, but the amount I have gone through in this life is more then some see in 60 years. Perhaps i should of stayed at home rather then "go out into the world" but it happened, and now it has turned out to be a gift of knowledge.
Sorry, I'm at work and can't be logged on for long.
For a clue, look to how Thief used the word in his sentence: ...more to the prospect that Man could actually take in hand his own destiny.
Here's me. There's you. There's the world, with the past stretching out behind us, all that's known, and the future stretching before us, an unknown. The only really-real bit of that timeline is here and now - reality is here and now, with us.
The word "fate" is used to refer to things that happen to us, especially dire things: when a jury reads the verdict, with their words they "seal our fate." Fate is an outcome that's been set for us by circumstances. It's the culumination of events that have taken place, and now, here in the present, the outcome is happening.
Destiny, on the other hand, is something that requires our participation - it's our destiny. It doesn't belong to circumstance, to the world, but to us, and is in large part defined by the choices we make. We cannot know the outcome, because, like the future, it stretches forward into what's yet to be. It's not a culmination of things that have happened, but the eventual culmination of what's to happen, including the choices we make today. Here, now.
jml03
Member
I'm not understanding why you think God is sexist or prejudice. The bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. They can make mistakes, because humans do. God doesn't. The bible is still here today because overall what it says is what He wanted to say.
But sexist, I don't get where you come to that idea. In the book of Judges, chapter 4 is a story about Deborah. She was a judge, thus men and women went to her for guidance. Her general would not go to war without her presence. She was revered.
The story of Ruth, a story about loyalty and morality in which the women persevere.
Also, the women mentioned in the New Testament. Lazarus' sisters Mary and Martha, Mary, Mary Magdalene - these were prominent figures, not just women.
I will, however, humor your sexism remark. In the old testament, when something bad happened in which a woman was involved, it was generally her fault. Eve - of course we know that story. Sarah - she laughed when she heard she would bear children at her age & didn't trust in God to fulfill the promise and just "forced" her maid onto Abraham to produce Ishmael.... and when Sodom was destroyed, Lot was "seduced" by his daughters & his wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying.
My point to this is, God gave His message to men, and men are fallible. Some of these messages may have lost a little bit of their way during the process - I don't know, I wasn't there, and God does not tell me everything. What I do know, regardless of how the message came to us, if you read the actual story - leaving out your/my own prejudice - it is a meaningful message.
For Eve, the message I read is Trust in God, when in doubt of others- pray!
For Sarah, the message I read is Have Faith in God, when I try to fix stuff it's like saying I can do better than God.
For Lot's wife, the message I read is Do Not Love the Things of This World above God, and be submissive to your husband if he's living his life for God - (being submissive does not mean placed in a corner and not speaking until spoken to, etc, etc. - for me it means trust in the one God gave you.)
For Lot's sisters, the message - well, I really get no message from that, it's just gross!!!!
I can go on, but I don't see where you can make an argument that God is sexist.
That's predestination, not destiny.
jonman122
Active Member
I don't see where anyone gets off making the crass statement that they know anything about god, or that god is infallible, or that god knows all, or doesn't make mistakes, so on and so forth.
HOW DO YOU KNOW? WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD? You don't even really know he exists, how can you possibly give him any attributes? And then after doing so, CLAIM that he is beyond logic?
You can't give him properties based on logic and then say he is "beyond" logic, to be beyond logic is to be not just beyond human understanding but beyond human intellect, to the point that you would not even know that there is a god, let alone able to define him.
HOW DO YOU KNOW? WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD? You don't even really know he exists, how can you possibly give him any attributes? And then after doing so, CLAIM that he is beyond logic?
You can't give him properties based on logic and then say he is "beyond" logic, to be beyond logic is to be not just beyond human understanding but beyond human intellect, to the point that you would not even know that there is a god, let alone able to define him.
jml03
Member
I'm pretty sure that I defined what He is to me. Just because He means nothing to you, is that your proof He does not exist? Because you haven't seen Him? He hasn't spoken to you? For some, maybe He is beyond logic...hmm.
jonman122
Active Member
you don't seem to be able to comprehend the point i'm making here. When you say something like "Man makes mistakes, god does not." you are making a LOGICAL claim about god, claiming he is as logical a being as man, but you cannot prove god exists with logic, so how can you claim he has logical properties, such as "not being able to make mistakes?" you can't assert that and be intellectually honest.
jml03
Member
Why? I am human, no? I describe things, people, places as humans do. Why would I not describe Him in the only way I know how? Since all of this is bogus to you, why does it even matter to you?
AnnaTheBeast
Member
You are saying that god isnt wrong to kill a bunch of innocent babies?
Gods sexist your wrong.
God doesnt give you your husband. Just because you meet someone you love get married have a family ect, doesnt mean its from god.
God, for the whole bible, made a big deal to make out that wemon are to not speak until spoken to. A big deal that they arent to work or do anything except give birth and BE SILENT UNDER THE MAN AND IN CHURCH.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
"encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:4-5
"get married, bear children, keep house" 1 Timothy 5:14
"But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." 1 Timothy 2:15
jonman122
Active Member
because you're trying to make an intellectual argument for god, saying god is not sexist and so forth, when really the evidence is completely stacked against you and you still have no logical argument as to what your evidence is based on, and you have no real argument as to why god even exists or how etc.
How can so many "mistakes" about gods sexism be in the bible?