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The fallacy of Jesus dying for our sins (By Shabir Ally)

Sha'irullah

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
[youtube]B4kKoV_uDts[/youtube]

This is a short 5 minute clip but it explains the major issues in the concept of Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?
 
Philomath

Philomath

Sadhaka
Jesus supposed death for our sins makes no sense to me. If Jesus died for our sins, he sacrificed nothing because he lost nothing. Pain and suffering become trivial when you're immortal. So really what did Jesus lose when he died? The christian god really couldn't come up with a better way to forgive himself than to sacrifice his son(or himself, depending on which denomination) to himself?
 
Ken Brown

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Sterling Archer said:
[youtube]B4kKoV_uDts[/youtube]

This is a short 5 minute clip but it explains the major issues in the concept of Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?
Click to expand...

Hi Sterling Archer, Shabir Ally is correct in how he analizes how traditional christianity is not at all logical in looking at punishing an innocent son in the place of wicked children. But what he fails to recoginize is the fact the HE did put Yeshua up on the cross with his sins, and he needs to stop doing that. He needs to repent, and turn from his sin, and thereby be saved from his iniquity. Islam has no answer to redeem sinners out from their sin (neither does traditional christianity), but the good news is that Elohim is sending forth His message a second time to tell sinners to repent and stop killing His Son. Hopefully, Shabir will realize this and repent. KB
 
Philomath

Philomath

Sadhaka
Ken Brown said:
Hi Sterling Archer, Shabir Ally is correct in how he analizes how traditional christianity is not at all logical in looking at punishing an innocent son in the place of wicked children. But what he fails to recoginize is the fact the HE did put Yeshua up on the cross with his sins, and he needs to stop doing that. He needs to repent, and turn from his sin, and thereby be saved from his iniquity. Islam has no answer to redeem sinners out from their sin (neither does traditional christianity), but the good news is that Elohim is sending forth His message a second time to tell sinners to repent and stop killing His Son. Hopefully, Shabir will realize this and repent. KB
Click to expand...

How did Shabir Ally wasn't even born at the time of Jesus so how did he somehow put him on the cross? Unless your going to tell me that the christian god holds people accountable for sin before their even born.
 
Sha'irullah

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Sleeppy said:
You should ask him what the purpose for fasting is.
Click to expand...

Fasting is an amazing way to stay in remembrance of God. Are you so g reedy and compulsive you could not even fast for a being far superior than yourself?

You would not pay heed to the word of Al-Kabir? You would ignore the words of al-Muta'kabir? Nor would you abide by the wisdom of al-Alim? You would not fast because you are at awe with al-Azim?

I would gladly give up a worthless meal for such a being
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Sterling Archer said:
Fasting is an amazing way to stay in remembrance of God. Are you so g reedy and compulsive you could not even fast for a being far superior than yourself?

You would not pay heed to the word of Al-Kabir? You would ignore the words of al-Muta'kabir? Nor would you abide by the wisdom of al-Alim? You would not fast because you are at awe with al-Azim?

I would gladly give up a worthless meal for such a being
Click to expand...

You mention food. Why? What about deprivation of food causes you to remember God? And why is it necessary to do so?

I fast daily. And I remember God each second.
 
Ken Brown

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Philomath said:
How did Shabir Ally wasn't even born at the time of Jesus so how did he somehow put him on the cross? Unless your going to tell me that the christian god holds people accountable for sin before their even born.
Click to expand...

Hi Philomath, it is a very simple concept. Yeshua IS the Word of Elohim, therefore, when someone breaks Elohim's word, it is in effect killing Yeshua.

Joh 7:19
(19) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Joh 8:37
(37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Philomath, those who do not follow the Word of Elohim (Word hath not place in you) are in effect killing or putting Yeshua up on the Cross, and I can assure you that Shabir and yourself, along with me and all other sinners did do so. It's something we should be ashamed of and be brought to repentance over, and to start following the Word, and stop killing Him. Who in their right might would want to murder the Word of Elohim? KB
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think that the original meaning of Jesus dying for our sins was that His self sacrifice in the path of God sets us an example to follow, thus by Jesus death we are encouraged to struggle against our own sins with all the self sacrifice this would entail.

Hence sayings such as, Luke 9:23 “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."
 
Philomath

Philomath

Sadhaka
Ken Brown said:
Hi Philomath, it is a very simple concept. Yeshua IS the Word of Elohim, therefore, when someone breaks Elohim's word, it is in effect killing Yeshua.

Joh 7:19
(19) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Joh 8:37
(37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Philomath, those who do not follow the Word of Elohim (Word hath not place in you) are in effect killing or putting Yeshua up on the Cross, and I can assure you that Shabir and yourself, along with me and all other sinners did do so. It's something we should be ashamed of and be brought to repentance over, and to start following the Word, and stop killing Him. Who in their right might would want to murder the Word of Elohim? KB
Click to expand...

How did I or Shabir Ally sin before we were even born? How could anyone who was born after Jesus have placed him on the cross? That makes no sense. It sounds like your telling me that the christian god holds everyone accountable for sin before their even born.
 
Ken Brown

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
I.S.L.A.M617 said:
And how exactly is "killing" someone that lives forever harmful in any way?
Click to expand...

Hi I.S.L.M617, what you may not understand is that for Yahweh to increase, He had to give up what He was, and become a man, as a dear brother of mine has explained:

Php 2:5-11
(5) For think this within you, which mind was also in Messiah Yeshua,
(6) who lived in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Him,
(7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
(8) and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
(9) Because of this also Elohim highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
(10) that at the name of Yeshua "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth,
(11) and "every tongue should confess" that Yeshua Messiah is "Supreme," to the glory of Elohim the Father. Isa. 45:23

And my Supreme Master said this:

Joh 12:24
(24) Truly, truly, I say to you, If the grain of wheat that falls into the earth does not die, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Yahweh, who was BEFORE Abraham (John 8:58), decided to become a man (Yeshua), and die, so that much fruit could be borne. Why is that hard for you to believe? KB
 
I.S.L.A.M617

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Ken Brown said:
Hi I.S.L.M617, what you may not understand is that for Yahweh to increase, He had to give up what He was, and become a man, as a dear brother of mine has explained:

Php 2:5-11
(5) For think this within you, which mind was also in Messiah Yeshua,
(6) who lived in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Him,
(7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
(8) and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
(9) Because of this also Elohim highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
(10) that at the name of Yeshua "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth,
(11) and "every tongue should confess" that Yeshua Messiah is "Supreme," to the glory of Elohim the Father. Isa. 45:23

And my Supreme Master said this:

Joh 12:24
(24) Truly, truly, I say to you, If the grain of wheat that falls into the earth does not die, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Yahweh, who was BEFORE Abraham (John 8:58), decided to become a man (Yeshua), and die, so that much fruit could be borne. Why is that hard for you to believe? KB
Click to expand...

That's all well and good, but in the end he didn't actually lose anything. He actually became a god afterwards, so he gained something out of it. Why feel bad for him? If I crashed my CBR and the insurance from it got me a Ducati, I wouldn't consider that a sacrifice...
 
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