The fallacy of Jesus dying for our sins (By Shabir Ally)

[idav]

The bible says that people are responsible for their own sin so someoene to die for others sins is contradictory. However I do notice throughout those texts that god is trying to bring humans under god but humans kept messing up. What Jesus did is changed this menatility so that we can be forgiven. Jesus asked that we be forgiven even so humans were killing a son of god and with that we can be forgiven for just about anything. Jesus didn't have to die for that to be accomplished.

 

[Ken Brown]

How did I or Shabir Ally sin before we were even born? How could anyone who was born after Jesus have placed him on the cross? That makes no sense. It sounds like your telling me that the christian god holds everyone accountable for sin before their even born.

Hi Philomath, it is not a matter of sinning BEFORE you were born, it is a matter of sinning at you time of existence, which in Elohim's realm, KILLS Yeshua at the appointed time. The death of Yeshua transcends time as He is the Word and the Word is what all of humanity has broken throughout this age, thus killing Him or placing Him up on the Cross. In YOUR beliefs, wouldn't disregarding and braking the word of the Ishvaras bring about their demise in your culture? This is what I am speaking of. KB

 

[Philomath]

Hi Philomath, it is not a matter of sinning BEFORE you were born, it is a matter of sinning at you time of existence, which in Elohim's realm, KILLS Yeshua at the appointed time. The death of Yeshua transcends time as He is the Word and the Word is what all of humanity has broken throughout this age, thus killing Him or placing Him up on the Cross. In YOUR beliefs, wouldn't disregarding and braking the word of the Ishvaras bring about their demise in your culture? This is what I am speaking of. KB

How did I sin at my time of existence? Are you telling that when I was created that I sinned? So the christian god does hold people accountable for sins before they are even born, otherwise there's no way Jesus could carry all of humanity's sin. I'm not sure what you meant by the Ishvara comment.

 

[Ken Brown]

How did I sin at my time of existence? Are you telling that when I was created that I sinned? So the christian god does hold people accountable for sins before they are even born, otherwise there's no way Jesus could carry all of humanity's sin. I'm not sure what you meant by the Ishvara comment.

Hi Philomath, your time of existence is here and now, and as all fleshly men, you have sinned, and your sin is credited with killing Yeshua, whether you were there or not. I also do not believe that "Jesus" substitutionally died and paid for mankind's sin debt. Concerning the Ishvara comment, what did you not understand? Do you not believe you should follow the desires and requirements of the many Ishara's/god's you follow, and if you don't follow them, doesn't that cause their demise in your beliefs? KB

 

[Philomath]

Hi Philomath, your time of existence is here and now, and as all fleshly men, you have sinned, and your sin is credited with killing Yeshua, whether you were there or not. I also do not believe that "Jesus" substitutionally died and paid for mankind's sin debt. Concerning the Ishvara comment, what did you not understand? Do you not believe you should follow the desires and requirements of the many Ishara's/god's you follow, and if you don't follow them, doesn't that cause their demise in your beliefs? KB

So I'm held accountable for something I wasn't even present for? That is a very unjust god. If you don't believe Jesus substitutionally died and paid for mankind's sin debt then what do you believe? I only believe in one God though he is seen through different ways like the Ishvara's that your referring to. I believe I should follow God's desires but even if I don't no harm will befall me nor will it cause God's demise.

 

[Sleeppy]

Apparently by sin and free will, but that's not where I was going at all...

Not in reality. Not in Christ. Christ died for the forgiveness of sin, in much the same way as Martin Luther King. This should be within recent enough memory, to help you understand.

You need to understand sin, repentance, forgiveness, teaching, guiding, etc. Christ lived for the same reason that He died, and ascended.. To teach those who could be taught. And those who could be taught, by their teaching, then reform each other continually unto the ends of the Earth.

Understanding was foremost. Forgiveness of sin and repentance originate with understanding. Hence, 'Forgive them, they know not.' Read, and attempt understanding. Words are not always the best means for understanding, but there are plenty to check each other.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Not in reality. Not in Christ. Christ died for the forgiveness of sin, in much the same way as Martin Luther King. This should be within recent enough memory, to help you understand.

I don't equate Jesus with reality. Not nearly enough evidence. Also, I've always been more of a Malcolm X man.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't equate Jesus with reality. Not nearly enough evidence. Also, I've always been more of a Malcolm X man.

What's funny is, the evidence is Christianity. You can deny whatever about Jesus, but the outcome remains.

What about Malcolm?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

What's funny is, the evidence is Christianity. You can deny whatever about Jesus, but the outcome remains.

So is Scientology evidence that the lord Xenu brought members of the Galactic Federation to Earth in solid gold Douglas DC-10s, put them in volcanoes, and blew the volcanoes up with nukes? And that he is now held in a prison secured by a force field with an everlasting battery?

What about Malcolm?

Always appreciated him a lot more than MLK. I never agreed with MLK's approach.

 

[Sleeppy]

So is Scientology evidence that the lord Xenu brought members of the Galactic Federation to Earth in solid gold Douglas DC-10s, put them in volcanoes, and blew the volcanoes up with nukes? And that he is now held in a prison secured by a force field with an everlasting battery?


Always appreciated him a lot more than MLK. I never agreed with MLK's approach.

Yes. If that's what Scientology claims. But whether all of that is true or not? Doesn't matter, because the outcome, which is Scientology and their beliefs, remains.

X was murdered as well. But, he was less for forgiveness and understanding.. More for forcing something that couldn't be forced.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Yes. If that's what Scientology claims. But whether all of that is true or not? Doesn't matter, because the outcome, which is Scientology and their beliefs, remains.

Saying something happened doesn't make it evidence, and it does matter whether or not something's true if you're going to advertise it as the truth.

X was murdered as well. But, he was less for forgiveness and understanding.. More for forcing something that couldn't be forced.

And like everyone else, you focus on Malcolm X's early years as if he never had a change of heart that got him killed in the first place... But that's neither here nor there. I don't appreciate MLK's "sacrifice" (If that's what you want to call getting shot outside of a hotel where you were just cheating on your wife) any more than I do Jesus', which I don't believe happened at all.

 

[ruffen]

I think the whole notion that Jesus died for my sins is a horrible one. I never asked him to do that, so don't expect me to be eternally thankful that he was nailed to that cross.

The entire humanity is collectively sentenced to eternity in Hell, either because of the inherited sin from Adam and Eve (which is outrageous) or because we all are sinners (which is outrageous - to create us as natural sinners and the condemn the whole lot of us for being what we are made to be). To "fix" this a being with eternal life is nailed to a cross and "killed" only to rise a day or two later (the ultimate sacrifice? yeah right) so that he can do a by-proxy penalty for everyone else because God the father is a machine who cannot just say "allright I forgive you guys" but has to have God the son killed in order for it to be okay.

The bottom line is that a blood price must be paid, and I claim that I am morally superior to God if that is the case, as I would require no such madness.

It's a horrible idea, it is not justice or morally acceptable, and the worst thing of it all is that so many Christians think that this killing is a beautiful story.

 

[Sleeppy]

Saying something happened doesn't make it evidence, and it does matter whether or not something's true if you're going to advertise it as the truth.


And like everyone else, you focus on Malcolm X's early years as if he never had a change of heart that got him killed in the first place... But that's neither here nor there. I don't appreciate MLK's "sacrifice" (If that's what you want to call getting shot outside of a hotel where you were just cheating on your wife) any more than I do Jesus', which I don't believe happened at all.

Actually it does. Testimony. Is the evidence reliable? It depends on credentials and credibility ratings. And that was my point, you can deny Jesus existence, but the outcome- the end result, which is Christianity, remains.

I mentioned X before his latter years, really only to open you up. I'm curious as to what the difference in approach would have been, at that point.

It's also not necessary that you should value MLK.. The outcome that he supported, remains.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I think the whole notion that Jesus died for my sins is a horrible one. I never asked him to do that, so don't expect me to be eternally thankful that he was nailed to that cross.

I find this truthful. It is as if God must require a person to be placed on a guilt trip for something they did not ask for.
No true god would do such a thing

 

[Awoon]

The bible says that people are responsible for their own sin so someoene to die for others sins is contradictory. However I do notice throughout those texts that god is trying to bring humans under god but humans kept messing up. What Jesus did is changed this menatility so that we can be forgiven. Jesus asked that we be forgiven even so humans were killing a son of god and with that we can be forgiven for just about anything. Jesus didn't have to die for that to be accomplished.

If he didn't die that would have ruined the story.

 

[ruffen]

If he didn't die that would have ruined the story.

And this represent another twist of it that I do not like. That if Jesus hadn't died like that, he couldn't arise from the dead and prove he was divine. Logically what follows is that Judas Iscariot was the real hero of the story. He "betrayed" Jesus so that Jesus could shine on the cross. Without Judas doing what he did, it would have ruined the story.

Extend this further, and every person doing horrible deeds, murdering innocents or torturing people or keeping their daughters trapped in the basement, are actually real heros, as they renounce their place in Heaven in order to ensure that their victims go there. This follows logically from those who say that the victims of such people, have been "tested" and "will be rewarded" in Heaven for what they've gone through.

 

[Sleeppy]

I think the whole notion that Jesus died for my sins is a horrible one. I never asked him to do that, so don't expect me to be eternally thankful that he was nailed to that cross.

The entire humanity is collectively sentenced to eternity in Hell, either because of the inherited sin from Adam and Eve (which is outrageous) or because we all are sinners (which is outrageous - to create us as natural sinners and the condemn the whole lot of us for being what we are made to be). To "fix" this a being with eternal life is nailed to a cross and "killed" only to rise a day or two later (the ultimate sacrifice? yeah right) so that he can do a by-proxy penalty for everyone else because God the father is a machine who cannot just say "allright I forgive you guys" but has to have God the son killed in order for it to be okay.

The bottom line is that a blood price must be paid, and I claim that I am morally superior to God if that is the case, as I would require no such madness.

It's a horrible idea, it is not justice or morally acceptable, and the worst thing of it all is that so many Christians think that this killing is a beautiful story.

Are you thankful to your mother and father, for giving you life you didn't ask for?

 

[Awoon]

And this represent another twist of it that I do not like. That if Jesus hadn't died like that, he couldn't arise from the dead and prove he was divine. Logically what follows is that Judas Iscariot was the real hero of the story. He "betrayed" Jesus so that Jesus could shine on the cross. Without Judas doing what he did, it would have ruined the story.

Extend this further, and every person doing horrible deeds, murdering innocents or torturing people or keeping their daughters trapped in the basement, are actually real heros, as they renounce their place in Heaven in order to ensure that their victims go there. This follows logically from those who say that the victims of such people, have been "tested" and "will be rewarded" in Heaven for what they've gone through.

The Judas deal is a complete turnaround within the Jesus story. Jesus was expecting the Kingdom of God to appear very soon, he even told his disciples that the next time they drank wine together the Kingdom would be there. Next part you read in the story he has a trial is killed and the Kingdom doesn't show up. The writers going forth forget the Kingdom and concentrate on Jesus death and resurrection as a human sacrifice to God for the sins of humankind.

So that became the religion about Jesus and not the religion of Jesus. And that is what has been taught since.

 

[Sleeppy]

The Judas deal is a complete turnaround within the Jesus story. Jesus was expecting the Kingdom of God to appear very soon, he even told his disciples that the next time they drank wine together the Kingdom would be there. Next part you read in the story he has a trial is killed and the Kingdom doesn't show up. The writers going forth forget the Kingdom and concentrate on Jesus death and resurrection as a human sacrifice to God for the sins of humankind.

So that became the religion about Jesus and not the religion of Jesus. And that is what has been taught since.

Why do you keep nitpicking what He said?

So, He didn't tell them He would die?

 

[Awoon]

Why do you keep nitpicking what He said?

So, He didn't tell them He would die?

He didn't know was gonna be killed according to the author of the story. Good stories have twists and turns and the Jesus story writer ended it with dinner and a movie. (The Passion of the Christ).