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The far right is losing its ability to speak freely online. Should the left defend it?

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't see why other people would be obligated to assist one in disseminating views they strongly disagree with. A forum or a social media site is run by a group or a company. Why should they be obligated to allow their site to used to project ideologies they are strongly opposed to?

Just playing devils advocate here, but could this fall under the same legality of a Christian bakery being forced to prepare a wedding cake for a gay couple against their religious beliefs? I think they lost their business over that. How is this different?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
It's like how a certain user on here is a neo-Nazi and posts neo-Nazi crap at times. I just argue with them about it. They usually can't defend their viewpoint, anyway, and stop replying. I don't report them over it or think they should be banned from the site. I like hearing from a diversity of views, including ones I can't stand. At least it's entertaining. Sometimes with extremist views, it gives me something to think about. You never know. It's not like we'll ever be rid of extremism.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I mostly hate Milo and think he crosses the line into harassment at times but I don't think he should be banned from public forums or locked up, no. He did get banned from Twitter and I support that as it was over his trolling and not because of his views. That's not the same as having an entire website blocked, anyway. If someone tried to ban his website or ban him from or otherwise stop from participating in a speaking engagement, I think that would be wrong and would argue in favor of his right to speech.

I even follow him on Facebook, where he behaves himself much better.
Jeez, Frankie, I don't even follow him of FacePalm. :)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It's like how a certain user on here is a neo-Nazi and posts neo-Nazi crap at times. I just argue with them about it. They usually can't defend their viewpoint, anyway, and stop replying. I don't report them over it or think they should be banned from the site. I like hearing from a diversity of views, including ones I can't stand. At least it's entertaining. Sometimes with extremist views, it gives me something to think about. You never know. It's not like we'll ever be rid of extremism.
That, in a nutshell, is what keeps me hanging around on RF. It's the opposing ideas found outside the echo chamber of our minds. Fortunately, I'm pretty stable so even getting roughed over from time to time doesn't bother me much. What is worrisome is when we seek to make the world sync the tenor of our thinking and immediately stifle anything that causes a discordant jangle.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Just playing devils advocate here, but could this fall under the same legality of a Christian bakery being forced to prepare a wedding cake for a gay couple against their religious beliefs? I think they lost their business over that. How is this different?
Cake is a type of food. Not selling food to people whose ideas you disagree with will be tantamount to murdering them through starvation (like famines created by Stalin and Mao).
I think the cake seller can refuse to write "happy wedding Joe and John" on top of the cake but can't refuse to sell the cake itself.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Cake is a type of food. Not selling food to people whose ideas you disagree with will be tantamount to murdering them through starvation (like famines created by Stalin and Mao).
I love ya, @sayak83 but the last line especially is over-reach on steroids. Did you really just compare to baking a cake to the famines created by Stalin and Mao? Seriously? Cake is an unnecessary luxury item. Full stop. In no sane universe can the two be equated.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I love ya, @sayak83 but the last line especially is over-reach on steroids. Did you really just compare to baking a cake to the famines created by Stalin and Mao? Seriously? Cake is an unnecessary luxury item. Full stop. In no sane universe can the two be equated.
Are you thinking of having different laws regarding what grocery stores are allowed and what restaurants and cake shops are allowed?

Cake is basic food in my book. Mmm.. yummy :p
Also chocolate.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Cake is a type of food. Not selling food to people whose ideas you disagree with will be tantamount to murdering them through starvation (like famines created by Stalin and Mao).
I think the cake seller can refuse to write "happy wedding Joe and John" on top of the cake but can't refuse to sell the cake itself.

They were not refusing to sell them cake. Just not a wedding cake as it would have to them been considered as condoning something against their religious beliefs. This is why I stated that I was playing devils advocate. Like you I do love chocolate cake, but I don't believe anyone has ever starved because they didn't get a wedding cake. How far do we go? Do we sue or arrest a Jewish or muslim establishment if they won't serve us pork products?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
They were not refusing to sell them cake. Just not a wedding cake as it would have to them been considered as condoning something against their religious beliefs. This is why I stated that I was playing devils advocate. Like you I do love chocolate cake, but I don't believe anyone has ever starved because they didn't get a wedding cake. How far do we go? Do we sue or arrest a Jewish or muslim establishment if they won't serve us pork products?
They don't want to make the cake they don't have to work there. There job is cake making not getting people married. What if it was a girls name just sounded like a guys name, it's just words on a cake.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They don't want to make the cake they don't have to work there. There job is cake making not getting people married. What if it was a girls name just sounded like a guys name, it's just words on a cake.

It was their business which they had built. And they lost it due to their religious beliefs. That's all I'm saying about this.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They were not refusing to sell them cake. Just not a wedding cake as it would have to them been considered as condoning something against their religious beliefs. This is why I stated that I was playing devils advocate. Like you I do love chocolate cake, but I don't believe anyone has ever starved because they didn't get a wedding cake. How far do we go? Do we sue or arrest a Jewish or muslim establishment if they won't serve us pork products?
But they never have pork products anyways. Further, in USA, all big grocery stores sells cakes as well as wedding cakes. Allowing grocery stores to refuse to sell food items based on beliefs is very dangerous. And there is no legislation that says I need to have a wedding to buy a wedding cake. A wedding cake is just another cake with "X weds Y" written on it. So.. sell the cake but refuse to write the words. Simple.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It was their business which they had built. And they lost it due to their religious beliefs. That's all I'm saying about this.
It is tolerance vs intolerance, and intolerance appears to be in a losing battle whether it's hate based on race superiority or hate based on sexual orientation.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Free speech was the left’s rally cry. But the fate of the Daily Stormer, a hate site ‘kicked off the internet’, signals the increasing irrelevance of the first amendment"
The far right is losing its ability to speak freely online. Should the left defend it?

Great article.

Yes. Governments/Corporations will use the same practices to censor far-left sites as "hate groups" and "extremism". It will not be confined to the far-right for very long but will spread as it becomes "standard practice". I'm really uneasy about this but I'm not seeing an alternative without ending up in the firing line. Given that the far-left and the far-right are treated as equivalent threats to "liberal democracy" they will go after the far-left pretty soon.

I have no intention of defending either the far right or the far left whose ideological minions jointly killed, maimed, tortured or incarcerated millions and millions of people over the 20 th century. The complete eradication of both ideologies from the public square would be most welcome.

I like your passion comrade. The anger. The hatred. The lust for power to make the people think and feel correctly. The righteous desire to purify the minds of the people of the lies and slanders of their enemies and lead them to state sponsored enlightenment and virtue. I'm sure you'd look very sexy in a uniform enforcing some discipline.

If you really believe what you're saying, then you're playing for the wrong team. the dark side is always open to new members. Why not give it a try whilst its still legal? :D
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. Governments/Corporations will use the same practices to censor far-left sites as "hate groups" and "extremism". It will not be confined to the far-right for very long but will spread as it becomes "standard practice". I'm really uneasy about this but I'm not seeing an alternative without ending up in the firing line. Given that the far-left and the far-right are treated as equivalent threats to "liberal democracy" they will go after the far-left pretty soon.



I like your passion comrade. The anger. The hatred. The lust for power to make the people think and feel correctly. The righteous desire to purify the minds of the people of the lies and slanders of their enemies and lead them to state sponsored enlightenment and virtue. I'm sure you'd look very sexy in a uniform enforcing some discipline.

If you really believe what you're saying, then you're playing for the wrong team. the dark side is always open to new members. Why not give it a try whilst its still legal? :D
Yay. Far Left vs Far Right. Fire and Ice. Let the dragon wars begin!

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:smilingimp::beercheers:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Basically in general if you run a company and you want to limit your services to a subset of people: that's your right.

However, what you cannot do, is say that your terms of services are "X", and then decide later to remove someone who hasn't violated their agreement with you.

If you agree to host a person's website with an agreement that doesn't specify that they can't use it for racist reasons, and then you revoke it after the fact, I don't see why a corporation should be given the liberty to suddenly remove users who aren't violating that corporation's policies.

At the very least, it's false advertising by saying this service is open to anyone, then deciding that retroactively it's not open to Nazis and terminating your services to them after you have already taken their money and come to an agreement with them.
Generally, these terms of service have clauses that let the provider terminate the service by refunding any prepayment. They also let the provider modify the terms.

In general, I doubt these sites are governed by agreements that obligate the provider to keep hosting them/providing services no matter what for a long fixed term.

The issue is bigger. Right now we've got deplatforming happening without violating a host's terms of service. Or hosts suddenly changing terms of service to enable them to deplatform.
... which is generally their right, unless they're doing it on the basis of illegal discrimination. And last time I checked, "racist" wasn't a protected class.

Essentially corporations saying they can do whatever they want, even if you have a virtual agreement with them and are following the rules laid out by their agreements. This is not a good thing, for anyone, unless we can get courts to actually uphold the terms of service for websites on behalf of the users.
It seems you're asking to create the opposite problem: when a provider wants to stop providing services to a Neo-Nazi group and goes through the process that's laid out in the terms of service to make that happen, you don't think they should be allowed to.

The person who's arguing that people should be able to do whatever they want is you.

Otherwise its corporate censorship for any reason at all, even if you haven't broken any of their rules. And that cannot be good in the long run, so why enable them to do it today against these reprehensible groups??

Basically if a corporation gives you an agreement and says "You can use this site or platform in exchange for this and following these rules" and you agree and abide by those rules, the corporation should be bound by them as well. It'd be akin to going to McDonalds, agreeing to pay $1 for a cheeseburger, and then, after eating the burger, being told that now the price of your meal was $50 and you had better pay up. Corporations should not be allowed to change the terms of their contracts on their users.
I wouldn't want to be a corporation who's tied to those sorts of rules: I have to keep on providing some service as long as my client doesn't say "no"... even if it stops being profitable for me? Even if the technology used for it becomes obsolete?

As long as they pay their bill and don't use the service for anything clearly illegal, I should be forced to provide a service I may no longer want to provide?

I can't imagine anyone thinking that would be a good idea in any other context.
You can't imagine why someone would want to drop a client when keeping them would mean getting boycotted by a big chunk of the rest of your clients?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I consider my self a right-winger but i would absolutely defend free speech for people on the left if they were getting censored.
If "free speech" means that we're each entitled to a website, then I really ought to kick myself for paying money to my web provider for all these years.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
When you serve the public, you serve the public, and discrimination is not a right you legally possess.

Correct! And that is my point. This isn't about wedding cake. That's just what I used as an example. Doesn't a website open to the public fall under the same?
 
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