The Feds raid Amish farm, charge farmer with $30000 fine.

[SkepticThinker]

It's not,

It's not what?

but in some states, you can get it, and sure, they could put a warning on it. And then from there, those people should know what they are getting into. I don't drink raw milk, it's not legal here, but one thing I do like is kombucha. All kind of companies make it, and I like the taste of it. I was kind of wary of it when I first started drinking it, but it became something I like

What they are getting into? People should just assume that the milk they just purchased might contaminate them with listeriosis and lead to their untimely death or severe illness?

As to lead, how much of it does the modern person get in their body, anyway? How much are farming is done right next to busy roads - does lead get into the food when it's like that, or not? I watched this bushcraft guy from austrailia say he would never eat plants too close to the road, for that reason.

Lead exposure results in permanent damage to the brain, central nervous system, intellectual disabilty and behavioural disorders. Not only that but women with high levels of lead in their blood can affect the fetal cells in their children as well as their grandchildren. It's not something to mess about with.

Yes, that's another reason regulations are necessary. We don't want companies just dumping toxic chemicals into the ground. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Erin Brokovich, but it's based on the true story of a company called Pacific Gas & Electric who were dumping toxic chemicals into the ground Hinkley, California that resulted in almost everyone in that town, including the children, coming down with all different kinds of cancers, organ failure and all kinds of other horrific ailments, while telling all the inhabitants of that town that the chemicals they were dumping into the ground were good for them! They had to pay out billions (yes billions) to the victims of Hinkley, some of whom had already died by then.

We should care about this stuff and do everything we can to keep everyone healthy and safe via regulations.

Keep in mind, we also live a society where many things seem pointlessly dangerous. How about those clover-leaf onramps. Or simply driving a motorcycle. Or mountain climbing - do a youtube search of alex honnold, he climbs a 3000 foot sheer cliff with no equipment. Some people swim near sharks, or choose to camp around grizzly bears. My factory job can be dangerous

I would bet you that your factory job was a lot more dangerous before regulatory oversight was put into place.

Yes, there are dangerous things in the world. But we don't just throw our hands up in despair as if we can't do anything about it. There are lots of things we can do about it, starting with regulating our food products starting from their source, to their final product.

I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you against safety regulations that could stop farms from selling poisonous products to consumers, like in the OP's example?[/QUOTE]

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It's not what?

Listeria isn't something to mess with, like you said. Why, what did you think I meant

 

[SkepticThinker]

Listeria isn't something to mess with, like you said. Why, what did you think I meant

I don't know, that's why I asked.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What they are getting into?

I think they are getting into their own culture. Just like in Judaism they practice circumcision, or as in a video of a South American tribe I watched, the tribe has some kind of initiation ritual involving ants that bite. It's 'closed-system culture stuff.' I have had some strong ideas about regulating stuff, but I guess ultimately, I don't want to go out there and tell people how they should live, when it appears they have woven a culture out of all the different ways you can live.

Lead exposure results in permanent damage to the brain, central nervous system, intellectual disabilty and behavioural disorders.

Yeah and like I said, I wonder how much the modern person is consuming, and from where.

Yes, that's another reason regulations are necessary. We don't want companies just dumping toxic chemicals into the ground.

I would agree with that

I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Erin Brokovich, but it's based on the true story of a company called Pacific Gas & Electric who were dumping toxic chemicals into the ground Hinkley, California that resulted in almost everyone in that town, including the children, coming down with all different kinds of cancers, organ failure and all kinds of other horrific ailments,

I haven't seen that. The Marshall islands situation seems like the worst though

Yes, there are dangerous things in the world. But we don't just throw our hands up in despair as if we can't do anything about it. There are lots of things we can do about it, starting with regulating our food products starting from their source, to their final product.

I don't know, I want to be optimistic. But right now for example, those that govern seem to be in a middle of a game of nuclear chicken, and were I high up in power, that probably isn't something I would consider safe. Because really, don't they kind of bet everything by doing that? So they can fund a war, that results in a battle around the largest nuclear plant in europe, risking who knows what, and we're here arguing about this thread topic. I don't know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's not, but in some states, you can get it, and sure, they could put a warning on it. And then from there, those people should know what they are getting into. I don't drink raw milk, it's not legal here, but one thing I do like is kombucha. All kind of companies make it, and I like the taste of it. I was kind of wary of it when I first started drinking it, but it became something I like

As to lead, how much of it does the modern person get in their body, anyway? How much are farming is done right next to busy roads - does lead get into the food when it's like that, or not? I watched this bushcraft guy from austrailia say he would never eat plants too close to the road, for that reason

Keep in mind, we also live a society where many things seem pointlessly dangerous. How about those clover-leaf onramps. Or simply driving a motorcycle. Or mountain climbing - do a youtube search of alex honnold, he climbs a 3000 foot sheer cliff with no equipment. Some people swim near sharks, or choose to camp around grizzly bears. My factory job can be dangerous

The guy who was worried about lead from automobiles in plants showed marked ignorance. First leaded gasoline is illegal everywhere and has been for quite some time. Second the lead in gasoline almost certainly dispersed rather quickly. It was a worldwide problem and may have affected the intelligence of a generation. Hmm, he was probably the right age to have been hit with the worst of it.

I am mouseless and currently cannot seem to link. But if one searches "atmospheric lead over time" a host of articles come up. Since we all but banned lead in gasoline. it is still legal in aviation fuel, the amount of lead in the atmosphere has dropped 86% according to one article that I found. There are correlations between lead in the atmosphere and crime rates, but that is still a questionable link. For now it appears to be one major ecological bullet that we have dodged. It would be nice to at least halve the remaining lead amount, but that may have to wait a little.

Oh and besides leaded gas there are still houses out there with lead paint in them. Some plumbing still has soldered joints that can leach lead. I use to sell Tiffany style lamps and for a while the ones sold in California had to have a warning tag since they use to use solder with lead in it. I think that they solved that problem. But if you have a stained glass lamp do not lick it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think they are getting into their own culture. Just like in Judaism they practice circumcision, or as in a video of a South American tribe I watched, the tribe has some kind of initiation ritual involving ants that bite. It's 'closed-system culture stuff.' I have had some strong ideas about regulating stuff, but I guess ultimately, I don't want to go out there and tell people how they should live, when it appears they have woven a culture out of all the different ways you can live.



Yeah and like I said, I wonder how much the modern person is consuming, and from where.



I would agree with that



I haven't seen that. The Marshall island situation seems like the worst though



I don't know, I want to be optimistic. But right now for example, those that govern seem to be in a middle of a game of nuclear chicken, and were I high up in power, that probably isn't something I would consider safe. Because really, don't they kind of bet everything by doing that? So they can fund a war, that results in a battle around the largest nuclear plant in europe, risking who knows what, and we're here arguing about this thread topic. I don't know.

According to the one article that I did manage to link, somewhat, using my tablet that man appears to be some sort of sovereign citizen. Sovereign citizens are those that think that the laws of the land do not legally apply to them. And it was his meat selling that earned him the fine of $300,0000. He got in trouble for his sloppy milk handling in the past but that is not the only area in which he does not follow the law.

And as to raw milk one can get it legally without any problem in quite a few states. If you go to RealMilk.com you will find states where it is legal, states where you have to jump through some hoops, and in Nevada you can't get it at all. It is also not an honest site. I feel the need to warn you. This case caused at least one death, and that was from just one small independent farmer. There has to be more of them. This site claims no deaths due to raw milk. That is an outright lie.

 

[SkepticThinker]

"On behalf of the USDA and FDA, the Department of Justice has filed numerous actions over the years against Amos Miller and his farm. Most recently, the DOJ won an injunction forcing Miller to cease violating food safety laws. Miller signed a consent degree in 2020 acknowledging he was violating the injunction.

Judge Smith ordered Miller to appear in his court on June 16. He was sworn and given the opportunity to explain why he should not be found in contempt of court. Miller was, however, found in contempt.

Government attorneys say that Miller shows a “singular, historic willingness to flout democratically enacted federal food safety laws of general applicability.” Specifically, he’s resisted USDA’s Food Safety and Inspection Services responsibility for ensuring meat and poultry sold commercially is safe, wholesome, and correctly labeled and packaged.

Miller previously agreed to use a federally inspected slaughterhouse to process his meat but stopped because he objected to its use of antimicrobial citric acid. Miller argues that regulations and inspections make food less safe, not more safe."
Organic, raw farmer found in contempt by federal court for eastern Pennsylvania

 

[amorphous_constellation]

But if one searches "atmospheric lead over time" a host of articles come up.

If you search for anything these days, a host of information comes up. I kind of wonder if this is a problem, as it seems like information was a bit less wildly disparate / particulate in prior decades

This case caused at least one death, and that was from just one small independent farmer.

I have no doubt that it can. And from what you guys are saying, it is possible that the farmer did things that are wrong. I actually don't want to argue about the farmer, but I do wonder a bit about what the Amish are doing when contrasted against agriculture at scale, which is probably what a superpower would want. Especially given supply chain issues now. You know, like with a great amount of wheat and fertilizer production potentially getting stopped up because of a war on the other side of the planet.

Raw milk, and I may be mistaken about this, strikes me as something you don't want to produce at scale. They probably don't want it to cross state lines for a good reason, and I suspect it has to do with shelf-life. Note that in this thread, a multi-state outbreak was spoken of - was the problem that it was on the road too long?

Secondly, I was mistaken earlier: I can get it wisconsin, but it has to be 'incidental,' at the farmer's place. I don't know exactly what that means, but it sounds like a closed, neighborhood tribe style thing. And it can't be bought, either, so add non-commercial to that. Well if that is true, then that can probably be likened to what I talked about earlier, about 'closed-culture stuff.' And I guess I would assume that if they are talking so directly with the wisconsin farmer, surely knowing him well, that the people there would know what they are getting into.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you search for anything these days, a host of information comes up. I kind of wonder if this is a problem, as it seems like information was a bit less wildly disparate / particulate in prior decades

One has to know how to sift of the good from the bad. It is usually have to know how to sift out the good from the bad. It is not that difficult.

I have no doubt that it can. And from what you guys are saying, it is possible that the farmer did things that are wrong. I actually don't want to argue about the farmer, but I do wonder a bit about what the Amish are doing when contrasted against agriculture at scale, which is probably what a superpower would want. Especially given supply chain issues now. You know, like with a great amount of wheat and fertilizer production potentially getting stopped up because of a war on the other side of the planet.

Raw milk, and I may be mistaken about this, strikes me as something you don't want to produce at scale. They probably don't want it to cross state lines for a good reason, and I suspect it has to do with shelf-life. Note that in this thread, a multi-state outbreak was spoken of - was the problem that it was on the road too long?

Secondly, I was mistaken earlier: I can get it wisconsin, but it has to be 'incidental,' at the farmer's place. I don't know exactly what that means, but it sounds like a closed, neighborhood tribe style thing. And it can't be bought, either, so add non-commercial to that. Well if that is true, then that can probably be likened to what I talked about earlier, about 'closed-culture stuff.' And I guess I would assume that if they are talking so directly with the wisconsin farmer, surely knowing him well, that the people there would know what they are getting into.

When it comes to raw milk i guess one is taking on extra risks. Cleaning of the equipment use becomes of extreme importance. I don't know how well the Amish are set up for that.

Also when it comes to modern food one has to realize that the population of the world would probably have to be cut in half if it were not for modern pesticides and fertilizers. It is nice if one is rich enough to eat as if it were the good old days, but the majority of the world cannot afford to do that.

And there is a lot of nonsense spewed about GMO's etc.. No one has been able to show that they are harmful in any way. They actually allow for the use of less pesticides than one uses with "organic" foods. And yes, there are organic pesticides. Don't be fooled.

If I was growing for myself I too could have the luxury of not using pesticides because I would and have done the hard work of keeping an area clear of weed by hand. That simply cannot be done on a massive scale. As a hobby it is fun. But if one's life depends upon it it is back breaking labor eventually.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Also when it comes to modern food one has to realize that the population of the world would probably have to be cut in half if it were not for modern pesticides and fertilizers. It is nice if one is rich enough to eat as if it were the good old days, but the majority of the world cannot afford to do that.

And how I interpret these two sentences, is that property, and the processes of utility that are performed on it, are now worth more than at other times history. With excess land, land is worthless. If you want to maintain a huge population however, then land, and what you do on it, becomes tied to economy. It's not so much that the majority can't afford to do it, it's just that the land needs to be used efficiently. Which brings me again to the Amish, since I don't really know if they are doing that.

When it comes to raw milk i guess one is taking on extra risks. Cleaning of the equipment use becomes of extreme importance. I don't know how well the Amish are set up for that.

I don't know anything about raw milk, besides that some people like it, and if they can legally get it in some places, I don't care if they do. For all I know, there is also consumer responsibility with the product. Is the consumer expedient when they use it? Do they leave it out? I don't know, maybe those are good questions

 

[Subduction Zone]

And how I interpret these two sentences, is that property, and the processes of utility that are performed on it, are now worth more than at other times history. With excess land, land is worthless. If you want to maintain a huge population however, then land, and what you do on it, becomes tied to economy. It's not so much that the majority can't afford to do it, it's just that the land needs to be used efficiently. Which brings me again to the Amish, since I don't really know if they are doing that.



I don't know anything about raw milk, besides that some people like it, and if they can legally get it in some places, I don't care if they do. For all I know, there is also consumer responsibility with the product. Is the consumer expedient when they use it? Do they leave it out? I don't know, maybe those are good questions

If adults want to drink raw milk I have no problem with that. I think that they should be warned, and prosecuted if they feed it to their children and something goes terribly wrong. Children do not have a choice in what they eat.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If adults want to drink raw milk I have no problem with that. I think that they should be warned, and prosecuted if they feed it to their children and something goes terribly wrong. Children do not have a choice in what they eat.

Fair enough. Products often ought to have warnings, and practices can be dangerous.

Though overall, as you might be able to gather, I have questions about the administration of authority, generally. For example, if I had film footage of when I bullied and hazed as a child, as a poorer kid in the public school, I might review such footage for lack of regulatory oversight. But I don't know if the 'regulators' would appreciate it, if that footage actually existed. Anyway, time to move on