The Feminism Thread

[Meow Mix]

And the one who is responsible for their misery is a man. So yes I support feminism

Not always; women uphold patriarchal roles as well.

 

[We Never Know]

Not always; women uphold patriarchal roles as well.

Maybe not always but most of the time.

 

[Meow Mix]

Its said behind every successful man is a woman....and behind her is another man checking out her butt

To take a joke and make a serious comment in the spirit of the post, especially with all the talk of objectification: I don't take umbrage with people checking each other out briefly; it's one of the most human things that we do.

It becomes a problem when a glance becomes a stare, and objectification when it becomes uncomfortable.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Not always; women uphold patriarchal roles as well.

I know

 

[We Never Know]

To take a joke and make a serious comment in the spirit of the post, especially with all the talk of objectification: I don't take umbrage with people checking each other out briefly; it's one of the most human things that we do.

It becomes a problem when a glance becomes a stare, and objectification when it becomes uncomfortable.

Yep. I once heard there is nothing wrong with married people(the man or woman) window shopping(looking).
When it becomes more than looking(staring for example) it becomes a problem.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yep. I once heard there is nothing wrong with married people(the man or woman) window shopping(looking).
When it becomes more than looking(staring for example) its becomes a problem.

Yeah. Though this is probably something that's gauged between each individual couple.

For me personally, I don't care if my partner checks someone out. I'll probably check them out too.

There's just a line of discomfort somewhere that goes from natural human behavior to actual objectification of just staring at a person's body in a (usually) nonsexual context and making it sexual.

 

[JustGeorge]

I would like to create my art in peace without feminists telling me that I am “objectifying” and “sexualizing” them, or that they feel “exploited” whenever I paint a nude female angel or demon goddess.

I know it not all of them. Thank God.

It is a curious thing... if a woman creates the same art, it doesn't get the same scrutiny...

When I was younger, I loved doing portraits. All of men I found attractive. No one bothered me about it. If a man had only draw portraits of women he found attractive, he'd probably catch some slack about it.

 

[We Never Know]

It is a curious thing... if a woman creates the same art, it doesn't get the same scrutiny...

When I was younger, I loved doing portraits. All of men I found attractive. No one bothered me about it. If a man had only draw portraits of women he found attractive, he'd probably catch some slack about it.

Yep. The ole double standards. They still exist today.

 

[Meow Mix]

These are valid complaints. For what it's worth this feminist tries to dispel double standards like that.

 

[Stevicus]

Okay, since this is nearly a daily topic anyway, let's do this while trying to keep things civil in a dedicated thread.

What are your complaints about feminism, and why?

Someone placate the mods with cookies or something, I'm sure they're on edge. We'll play nice.

Well, I suppose I should admit upfront that I complain about everything.

However, I don't think that I have any real complaints about feminism, at least as far as the core, basic ideal of equality and human rights for all. I do agree with that as a general principle which is all-inclusive.

I think if I had any complaints, it's not necessarily about feminism itself, at least in terms of an actual political principle. Fact is, I've known many feminists throughout my life and got along rather well - at least those that I've known in real life.

But on the internet, when I've seen the subject brought up and discussed in various forums, it's different. It seems to be one of those hot-button issues where tempers can flare. I've looked at some of the male rights websites in the "manosphere" which has a decidedly anti-feminist bent (although not all of them are the same in that regard).

Sometimes that, along with the media, tends to paint a picture which might be a bit skewed and easily misinterpreted.

Also, feminism doesn't operate in a vacuum, so it intermingles with other ideas and schools of thought in such a way that feminism can be viewed and practiced through any number of ideological lenses - capitalist, socialist, nationalist, anarchist, fascist, communist, militaristic, peacenik, religious, or what have you. Would Marjorie Taylor Greene be considered a beneficiary of feminism?

 

[Meow Mix]

Well, I suppose I should admit upfront that I complain about everything.

However, I don't think that I have any real complaints about feminism, at least as far as the core, basic ideal of equality and human rights for all. I do agree with that as a general principle which is all-inclusive.

I think if I had any complaints, it's not necessarily about feminism itself, at least in terms of an actual political principle. Fact is, I've known many feminists throughout my life and got along rather well - at least those that I've known in real life.

But on the internet, when I've seen the subject brought up and discussed in various forums, it's different. It seems to be one of those hot-button issues where tempers can flare. I've looked at some of the male rights websites in the "manosphere" which has a decidedly anti-feminist bent (although not all of them are the same in that regard).

Sometimes that, along with the media, tends to paint a picture which might be a bit skewed and easily misinterpreted.

Also, feminism doesn't operate in a vacuum, so it intermingles with other ideas and schools of thought in such a way that feminism can be viewed and practiced through any number of ideological lenses - capitalist, socialist, nationalist, anarchist, fascist, communist, militaristic, peacenik, religious, or what have you. Would Marjorie Taylor Greene be considered a beneficiary of feminism?

Tempers can and do flare: I think this stems from the fatigue that accompanies being actively interested in an issue like this where we might encounter something on a weekly or even daily basis where we have to make decisions: as I've described elsewhere, it is a constant headache to choose between the principles of "pick your battles" and "silence is assent." This is why you'll see people making a mountain out of what might seem like a mole hill (in terms of a behavioral explanation). I wrote a post about fatigue not too long ago (in Feminist Only, I think people can still read even if not comment): Feminist Fatigue

I don't think losing temper or being bitter is helpful at all, but it's a tough situation because I understand on a human level why and how it happens.

As for the "manosphere," there are veritable trashheaps of misogyny and toxicity out there for sure; but masculism isn't by fiat anti-feminist and I think it would be helpful for everyone to remember that there are valid men's rights issues, social issues, and so on that are unfair to men. I'd call myself a masculist because I care about men and their rights and how society impacts them too. It's just a shame that a lot of the movements that would work towards these ends have been co-opted by misogyny, anti-feminism, and toxicity. (Still, we should care, according to me!)

I think you're right that feminism comes through different ideological lenses. My approach is one of social justice (feminism is a humanism), but I can certainly say that this isn't the only flavor. So when you ask about MTG, I'm not sure what to say: if her worldview could be perceived as a feminism by somebody for some reason, it's so alien from my values that I'd have to break it down into specific aspects to agree whether it's something I could call feminism or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People with healthy mindsets understand that even when they objectify a little bit that they're still interacting with a person: in fact, one of the times I judge people most acutely is in how they treat people in the service or entertainment industries because I think it reveals a very important part of a person's character.

That is an interesting one. But, myself, I have always assumed those who mistreat those in such positions are probably not good people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Okay, since this is nearly a daily topic anyway, let's do this while trying to keep things civil in a dedicated thread.

What are your complaints about feminism, and why?

Someone placate the mods with cookies or something, I'm sure they're on edge. We'll play nice.

I came for the cookies and stayed for the discussion. Although I didn't actually FIND any cookies...weird...

I don't have any complaints about feminism, per se. Some feminists could be a different story.
Not really different to either theists or atheists in that respect.

I would say that I know some particular schools of though within the feminist community would be problematic for me. Again, that's really not unique to feminism. There are schools of thought within both theism and atheism I find problematic.

So...if I limit my comments to some broad schools of thought within feminism (else I have nothing to say) I'd say only that to my mind the ultimate goal of feminism is to afford women the same opportunities, acknowledgement and gravitas as men. In effect, I see it as a way for us to move beyond gender as a limiting factor, and moving toward a meritocracy. I'm thinking here more about business, but a similar thought extends to all cultural endeavors, really. This is obviously a simplistic handling, but I'm a pretty simple guy, at the end of the day.

Arguments against porn, sex work, etc, are well and good, but to my mind most of this fits into two buckets. Either it's an individual's choice, or it's a symptom of larger societal issues. Focusing on those, and the women in the industries...apart from conversations around protection, or pay...doesn't make a lot of sense to me for that reason.

Like any cause, the cause can become more important than the outcomes, for some. There is a level of idealism involved which goes beyond what I'd see as helpful. Again, this isn't unique to feminism, and similar complaints could be laid at the feet of almost any umbrella term.

Which probably brings me to my final point. Just like I sometimes hear complaints about atheists, and wonder if the person has ever really met and spoken to one, I find some of the complaints about feminism are very much focused on the fringes. I've had the privilege of speaking at length with several who clearly saw feminism as a mechanism and topic targeting equality, and were welcoming to my sometimes ignorant questions. This led to me re-assessing what I'd thought of around this topic, and I know openly call myself a feminist (even if not a well-read one!).

 

[Spirit of Light]

I came for the cookies and stayed for the discussion. Although I didn't actually FIND any cookies...weird...

I don't have any complaints about feminism, per se. Some feminists could be a different story.
Not really different to either theists or atheists in that respect.

I would say that I know some particular schools of though within the feminist community would be problematic for me. Again, that's really not unique to feminism. There are schools of thought within both theism and atheism I find problematic.

So...if I limit my comments to some broad schools of thought within feminism (else I have nothing to say) I'd say only that to my mind the ultimate goal of feminism is to afford women the same opportunities, acknowledgement and gravitas as men. In effect, I see it as a way for us to move beyond gender as a limiting factor, and moving toward a meritocracy. I'm thinking here more about business, but a similar thought extends to all cultural endeavors, really. This is obviously a simplistic handling, but I'm a pretty simple guy, at the end of the day.

Arguments against porn, sex work, etc, are well and good, but to my mind most of this fits into two buckets. Either it's an individual's choice, or it's a symptom of larger societal issues. Focusing on those, and the women in the industries...apart from conversations around protection, or pay...doesn't make a lot of sense to me for that reason.

Like any cause, the cause can become more important than the outcomes, for some. There is a level of idealism involved which goes beyond what I'd see as helpful. Again, this isn't unique to feminism, and similar complaints could be laid at the feet of almost any umbrella term.

Which probably brings me to my final point. Just like I sometimes hear complaints about atheists, and wonder if the person has ever really met and spoken to one, I find some of the complaints about feminism are very much focused on the fringes. I've had the privilege of speaking at length with several who clearly saw feminism as a mechanism and topic targeting equality, and were welcoming to my sometimes ignorant questions. This led to me re-assessing what I'd thought of around this topic, and I know openly call myself a feminist (even if not a well-read one!).

You got cookies

 

[Meow Mix]

I came for the cookies and stayed for the discussion. Although I didn't actually FIND any cookies...weird...

I don't have any complaints about feminism, per se. Some feminists could be a different story.
Not really different to either theists or atheists in that respect.

I would say that I know some particular schools of though within the feminist community would be problematic for me. Again, that's really not unique to feminism. There are schools of thought within both theism and atheism I find problematic.

So...if I limit my comments to some broad schools of thought within feminism (else I have nothing to say) I'd say only that to my mind the ultimate goal of feminism is to afford women the same opportunities, acknowledgement and gravitas as men. In effect, I see it as a way for us to move beyond gender as a limiting factor, and moving toward a meritocracy. I'm thinking here more about business, but a similar thought extends to all cultural endeavors, really. This is obviously a simplistic handling, but I'm a pretty simple guy, at the end of the day.

Arguments against porn, sex work, etc, are well and good, but to my mind most of this fits into two buckets. Either it's an individual's choice, or it's a symptom of larger societal issues. Focusing on those, and the women in the industries...apart from conversations around protection, or pay...doesn't make a lot of sense to me for that reason.

Like any cause, the cause can become more important than the outcomes, for some. There is a level of idealism involved which goes beyond what I'd see as helpful. Again, this isn't unique to feminism, and similar complaints could be laid at the feet of almost any umbrella term.

Which probably brings me to my final point. Just like I sometimes hear complaints about atheists, and wonder if the person has ever really met and spoken to one, I find some of the complaints about feminism are very much focused on the fringes. I've had the privilege of speaking at length with several who clearly saw feminism as a mechanism and topic targeting equality, and were welcoming to my sometimes ignorant questions. This led to me re-assessing what I'd thought of around this topic, and I know openly call myself a feminist (even if not a well-read one!).

I have always enjoyed your thoughts on feminist and feminist-adjacent topics good sir (for once, you're not at a Wendy's).

Some comments about your points: sex work is a big hot button issue even within feminism, and you know which side I personally take on that. However, despite supporting sex workers' right to do that, if I could I'd tear down nearly all of the sex work industries for being scummy and exploitative (but then rebuild them under models that aren't, because again, I don't think the things themselves are bad: it's the crummy people running them that are bad).

The fringes can certainly be a problem in feminism. I'm pretty vocal about what my flavor of feminism looks like, and I certainly don't stand with the likes of TERFs (that's trans-exclusionary radical feminists, for readers) or SWERFs (that's sex worker-exclusionary radical feminist).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That is an interesting one. But, myself, I have always assumed those who mistreat those in such positions are probably not good people.

Yes. Back when I left teaching, I took an admin/receptionist position in the software industry. I was lucky I could get in at all, and lucky I had a boss who gave me a shot to move from admin to support, support to consulting, etc, etc. It was very much an entry level position.

I was also lucky that many people I worked with looked past the job title, and just dealt with me as me. It wasn't at all a surprise or problematic to them when I suddenly became a peer.
However, for some others, it was a vastly different picture. The worst were the ones who treated me like crap whilst I was in an entry level person, and suddenly became very friendly when I was promoted. I was very protective of the reception and admin staff around some people as I became more senior in the company.

My wife is a nurse, but waitressed her way through uni. And whilst many people are lovely, some seem to think service staff are just there to be treated like crap and ordered around. Like indentured servants or something.

As you say, it's pretty informative towards their personality, I think.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Okay, since this is nearly a daily topic anyway, let's do this while trying to keep things civil in a dedicated thread.

What are your complaints about feminism, and why?

Someone placate the mods with cookies or something, I'm sure they're on edge. We'll play nice.

I'm more of a brownie guy myself. haha. It's funny, I guess there is just something in the air because I just created an OP about a topic very similar to this one before reading this one. Haha. Ok well now that the cat's out of the bag, I guess it can live peaceful and free from oppression. Haha another joke that doesn't go anywhere.

In seriousness, my only complaint is like any other political ideology, there is a left and a right. Those that are way too extreme, and those that are way too liberal. Many believe because they have had it hard for so long, they can just reverse the table and make it hard on the other sex. A more of revenge than progression I would say. Restitution comes with forgiveness not violence. Feminism shouldn't be thought of as a forced view of unfairness to the women of any given era, Rather it should be a concentrated concern that women are people too and they are an equally crucial part of society regardless of occupation.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm more of a brownie guy myself. haha. It's funny, I guess there is just something in the air because I just created an OP about a topic very similar to this one before reading this one. Haha. Ok well now that the cat's out of the bag, I guess it can live peaceful and free from oppression. Haha another joke that doesn't go anywhere.

In seriousness, my only complaint is like any other political ideology, there is a left and a right. Those that are way too extreme, and those that are way too liberal. Many believe because they have had it hard for so long, they can just reverse the table and make it hard on the other sex. A more of revenge than progression I would say. Restitution comes with forgiveness not violence. Feminism shouldn't be thought of as a forced view of unfairness to the women of any given era, Rather it should be a concentrated concern that women are people too and they are an equally crucial part of society regardless of occupation.

I do not support misandry, so I'm with you on that.

Toxic masculinity is a big problem in modern society, but that doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I especially like Mr. Rogers because he is a powerful example that men can be wonderful with children. And though he wasn't physically "rough n tumble," he did push boundaries and address harder topics other kids shows wouldn't. He wasn't a beer swilling biker, but he was a positive male role model for generations of children, sort of a collective uncle we shared on TV growing up. And I'd say that's pretty manly to devote one's life to something so admirable in the face of stereotypes and expectations of men towards children.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I do not support misandry, so I'm with you on that.

Toxic masculinity is a big problem in modern society, but that doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic.

It is interesting that you are bringing this topic up. I'm curious, In a perfect world, if you were use the diagram and remove the toxin from masculinity, you would get Steve Rogers, an impervious man free from social and self destructive behaviors. The question is would this impervious man allow or contain feminine energy? If it pure masculinity what room would it have for women? I am saying purely out of interest of what you think?