Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
But that is another strawman. You don't know how to do odds.
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The first creature could not have come into being by random chance. It is impossible.
- Thread starter SavedByTheLord
- Start date
SavedByTheLord
Well-Known Member
Simple probability and statistics.
And the odds are far greater than that,
You should have understood this before deciding the Bible uttered the truth.
Statistics are not needed for the calculation of probability and your calculation is horribly flawed due to numerous false assumptions that you made. Sorry friend but, you are simply wrong and living in a house based on false assumptions - deceiving yourself into believing your foundation is one of Rock when reality it is one of sand.
Hearken to the words of the Lord Jesus and not to those of the deceiver.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Since probabilities impress you so much... here are a couple that are actually correct:
Odds of chimps and humans sharing 1 ERV without common ancestry is 1 in 3000*3 billion.
Odds of chimps and humans sharing 2 ERV's without common ancestry is 1 in (3000*3 billion)²
Odds of chimps and humans sharing 3 ERV's without common ancestry is 1 in (3000*3 billion)³
We share hundreds. And not only with chimps. With all great apes. And all other primates. And all other mammals. And so on.
That amounts to a number that makes it far more likely to have all the grains of sand in all the beaches of the world on a gigantic pile and picking the same grain of sand 10 times in a row after mixing them up again every time.
On the other hand...
Odds of sharing ALL those ERV's with other species WITH common ancestry: 1 in 1
For reference that the probability is based on:
- there are roughly 3000 virusses that can create ERV's
- there are roughly 3 billion potential insertion spots
Checkmate, creationist!
SavedByTheLord
Well-Known Member
Or an Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.
For example, 48 chromosomes for chimps but only 46 for people.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You might want to look up what ERV's are. They are not "design elements". They are remnants of infections.
You just called your god a liar. You just said that your god planted fake evidence of infections that never occurred.
This would be the equivalent of creating a human with a scar of a shark attack that never occurred.
On top of that, not only did he, in your apologetic opinion, plant such fake evidence in all species... he even went out of his way to do it in such a pattern that it is completely consistent with common ancestry....
If an infection inserts itself in the genome of a host, creating an ERV, then this gets past on to its off spring, resulting in an identical ERV in that lineage.
As @Subduction Zone told you so many times already, you are calling your god a liar. Stuff like this is what he means.
But I'm sure you'll stick your head in the sand again.
Only if their goal is to deceive people.
Also, insofar as the reuse of parts occurs in engineering, those commonalities NEVER result in nested hierarchies. That is incredibly wasteful and inefficient. Any engineer designing product lines like that would be fired instantly for incompetence.
Chromosome fusions repatterned recombination rate and facilitated reproductive isolation during Pristionchus nematode speciation - Nature Ecology & Evolution
Genomic analyses show that two independent fusions involving the same chromosome altered recombination patterns and contributed to reproductive isolation between two Pristionchus nematodes.
Educate yourself
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SavedByTheLord
Well-Known Member
Just false circular reasoning in that post.
You might want to look up what ERV's are. They are not "design elements". They are remnants of infections.
You just called your god a liar. You just said that your god planted fake evidence of infections that never occurred.
This would be the equivalent of creating a human with a scar of a shark attack that never occurred.
On top of that, not only did he, in your apologetic opinion, plant such fake evidence in all species... he even went out of his way to do it in such a pattern that it is completely consistent with common ancestry....
If an infection inserts itself in the genome of a host, creating an ERV, then this gets past on to its off spring, resulting in an identical ERV in that lineage.
As @Subduction Zone told you so many times already, you are calling your god a liar. Stuff like this is what he means.
But I'm sure you'll stick your head in the sand again.
Only if their goal is to deceive people.
Also, insofar as the reuse of parts occurs in engineering, those commonalities NEVER result in nested hierarchies. That is incredibly wasteful and inefficient. Any engineer designing product lines like that would be fired instantly for incompetence.
Chromosome fusions repatterned recombination rate and facilitated reproductive isolation during Pristionchus nematode speciation - Nature Ecology & Evolution
Genomic analyses show that two independent fusions involving the same chromosome altered recombination patterns and contributed to reproductive isolation between two Pristionchus nematodes.www.nature.com
Educate yourself
No first living creature, no second living creature, no living creatures.
Now you have claimed that people that accept evolution are deceived by the devil.
Who is it you are claiming is deceiving people with design elements?
There are living creatures.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Explain.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of ERVs
SavedByTheLord
Well-Known Member
You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent. So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.
An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.
For example, 48 chromosomes for chimps but only 46 for people.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, when you use strawman arguments the probabilities and statistics no longer apply. You screwed the pooch again.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And you demonstrated that you have no understanding of the sciences or evidence again. They are scientific evidence for evolution and science never deals in "proof" that is a mathematical concept.
Really,. So he planted dead viruses in the same place in the genomes of different species exactly in a way that we would expect to find in evolution. But thanks for admitting that your god is neither omniscient or omnipotent again. This is a very foolish argument for a theist to use since it contradicts their own beliefs on more than one level.
Oh, there are multiple gods now.
Hey everyone Thor is real!!
Oops, there goes the "proof" word again. It is evidence for a common ancestor.
Dude! I went over that one with you in depth. That is actually evidence for evolution since it was predicted that one of our chromosome pairs would have joined with another one. When we were able to fully analyze chromosomes guess what we found in our Chromosome Number Two? Clear evidence that it was a fused chromosome.
Do you want me to go over what they found and how it shows that the chromosome was joined?
SavedByTheLord
Well-Known Member
Thor is just another pagan God.
You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent. So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.
An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.
For example, 48 chromosomes for chimps but only 46 for people.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
So is your god. You god is as false, or true, as Thor.
And the chromosome number difference was explained to you.You raised no objection at the time. That indicates that you agreed to it.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
We aren't talking about traits. We are talking about ERVs. Genetic scars. Remnants of infections that got inserted into the genome.
No "intelligent creator" design products with fake "damage" of things that never occurred.
No "intelligent creator" reuses parts in hierarchical nested patterns.
Nested hierarchies of commonalities are predicted by evolution. So if such exist (and they do), then those are evidence for evolution.
Give an example of such.
This is not an example of such. You didn't read the link and watched the clip I posted in the post you are responding to, did you?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
btw: the biologist in this clip who explains the fused chromosome, is a devout christian.
Maninthemiddle
Active Member
According to current scientific understanding, the origin of life on Earth can be traced back to a process known as abiogenesis. This hypothesis proposes that under the right conditions, such as a primordial soup of chemicals and energy sources, the building blocks of life, such as amino acids and nucleotides, could have formed. These molecules, in turn, could have combined to form more complex structures like proteins and nucleic acids, eventually leading to the emergence of self-replicating systems akin to early life forms.
Several experiments have been conducted in laboratories to simulate the conditions believed to have existed on early Earth, and they have yielded promising results in terms of the spontaneous formation of organic compounds. For instance, the Miller-Urey experiment conducted in the 1950s demonstrated that a mixture of gases, similar to the atmosphere of early Earth, when subjected to energy sources such as electrical sparks, could produce amino acids.
While these findings provide valuable insights into the plausibility of life emerging through natural processes, they do not conclusively prove that the origin of life occurred solely by random chance. The complexity and intricacy of living organisms, as well as the precise conditions required for the emergence of life, make it challenging to provide a definitive answer.
From a theological perspective, the belief in a divine creator is an integral part of many religious traditions. According to these beliefs, the existence of complex creatures is attributed to the intentional act of a higher power. However, it is crucial to recognize that science and religion address different aspects of human understanding and can coexist without conflicting.
Several experiments have been conducted in laboratories to simulate the conditions believed to have existed on early Earth, and they have yielded promising results in terms of the spontaneous formation of organic compounds. For instance, the Miller-Urey experiment conducted in the 1950s demonstrated that a mixture of gases, similar to the atmosphere of early Earth, when subjected to energy sources such as electrical sparks, could produce amino acids.
While these findings provide valuable insights into the plausibility of life emerging through natural processes, they do not conclusively prove that the origin of life occurred solely by random chance. The complexity and intricacy of living organisms, as well as the precise conditions required for the emergence of life, make it challenging to provide a definitive answer.
From a theological perspective, the belief in a divine creator is an integral part of many religious traditions. According to these beliefs, the existence of complex creatures is attributed to the intentional act of a higher power. However, it is crucial to recognize that science and religion address different aspects of human understanding and can coexist without conflicting.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It won't do any good. I went over this with several articles that explained what endomeres and centromeres were, what they did, and how they are recognized and he only ignored it.