The first creature could not have come into being by random chance. It is impossible.

[TagliatelliMonster]

It won't do any good. I went over this with several articles that explained what endomeres and centromeres were, what they did, and how they are recognized and he only ignored it.

Off course he did.

I didn't expect anything else.
However, there are people that don't participate in the forum / discussion that read this and they can see this discussion. They are honest enough with themselves to review these clips and articles. They can see the intellectual dishonesty, stubbornness and willful ignorance at the other end of the table.

We do it for them.
As usual, the creationist in the room is his own worst enemy. Guys like @SavedByTheLord do a much better job at exposing the dishonesty of creationists / fundamentalists then any atheist could ever do.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

btw: the biologist in this clip who explains the fused chromosome, is a devout christian.

Is Ken Miller saved?
And if he is, that means he is deceived because God created everything in 6 days about 6000 years ago without evolution. Read Genesis 1 and 2.

You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent. So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.

An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is Ken Miller saved?
And if he is, that means he is deceived because God created everything in 6 days about 6000 years ago without evolution. Read Genesis 1 and 2.

You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent. So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.

An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.

He is probably more "saved" than you are since he does not call his God a liar.

And I see that you still cannot argue rationally. The sciences work on evidence. "Proof" is a mathematical concept. If you mean 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt" then yes, by that standard evolution is "proven". You have to be reasonable to be able to have a valid opinion in that matter.

 

[blü 2]

So you cannot meet the challenge.

Coming from you, that's pretty rich.

You still haven't told us why you won't answer questions about your own position.

As for meeting challenges, you still haven't acknowledged or apologized for your whopper that Genesis contains passages affirming modern cosmology.

Get a qualified team of heavy lifting experts and remove the mote from your own eye,

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent.

You seem to have missed everything said in the clip. What's wrong? You couldn't even get yourself to concentrate and listen for 4 minutes and 20 seconds?
This is not about "common traits". This is about a perfectly valid explanation concerning how chromosome 2 and 13 fused together, explaining why humans have 23 chromosome pairs instead of 24 like the other primates.


Your intellectually dishonest willful ignorance is showing again.

Why do you ask about the difference in chromosome count between humans and chimps if you are then just going to dismiss the answer without even listening to the answer given?
Why do you ask questions if you are not planning on listening to the answers?

Do you understand how that makes you look?
Do you understand how this reflects on your claims, beliefs and overall position?

It does not make you, or your beliefs, look good.

Instead, it just makes you look like an intellectually dishonest troll.
Do you think your Jesus will be proud of you when you act in such despicable ways?

If this is the type of behavior your religion promotes, then I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it right out the gates.

You might want to contemplate that... You might want to think about how big of a disservice you are doing to yourself AND your religion by acting this way.

Like I told @Subduction Zone in another post... by acting like this, you are actually doing a FAR better job then any atheist could ever do to make people turn away from your religion.

Is that really the outcome you are shooting for?
Making yourself and your religion look dishonest and shameful?

Have some dignity man.

So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.

An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.

This deserves no further reply because it's just the same willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest nonsense over and over again, like a broken record.

You are not interested in intellectual discussion.
You are not interested in the answers to the questions you ask.
You are not interested in anything other then spewing your intolerant, intellectually dishonest, strawmanning hateful bs.

How you think anything good is ever going to come out of this despicable behavior is a mystery.
The only thing you will accomplish, is turning people away from your religion.

But I'll bet a bazillion dollars that you won't care about any of this either, and instead you are just going to double down and continue to spew your intellectual dishonesty all over the forum.

I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

You seem to have missed everything said in the clip. What's wrong? You couldn't even get yourself to concentrate and listen for 4 minutes and 20 seconds?
This is not about "common traits". This is about a perfectly valid explanation concerning how chromosome 2 and 13 fused together, explaining why humans have 23 chromosome pairs instead of 24 like the other primates.


Your intellectually dishonest willful ignorance is showing again.

Why do you ask about the difference in chromosome count between humans and chimps if you are then just going to dismiss the answer without even listening to the answer given?
Why do you ask questions if you are not planning on listening to the answers?

Do you understand how that makes you look?
Do you understand how this reflects on your claims, beliefs and overall position?

It does not make you, or your beliefs, look good.

Instead, it just makes you look like an intellectually dishonest troll.
Do you think your Jesus will be proud of you when you act in such despicable ways?

If this is the type of behavior your religion promotes, then I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it right out the gates.

You might want to contemplate that... You might want to think about how big of a disservice you are doing to yourself AND your religion by acting this way.

Like I told @Subduction Zone in another post... by acting like this, you are actually doing a FAR better job then any atheist could ever do to make people turn away from your religion.

Is that really the outcome you are shooting for?
Making yourself and your religion look dishonest and shameful?

Have some dignity man.



This deserves no further reply because it's just the same willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest nonsense over and over again, like a broken record.

You are not interested in intellectual discussion.
You are not interested in the answers to the questions you ask.
You are not interested in anything other then spewing your intolerant, intellectually dishonest, strawmanning hateful bs.

How you think anything good is ever going to come out of this despicable behavior is a mystery.
The only thing you will accomplish, is turning people away from your religion.

But I'll bet a bazillion dollars that you won't care about any of this either, and instead you are just going to double down and continue to spew your intellectual dishonesty all over the forum.

I don't know what else to tell you.

And of course, that was a lot of circular reasoning and false assumptions in just one post

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But I'll bet a bazillion dollars that you won't care about any of this either, and instead you are just going to double down and continue to spew your intellectual dishonesty all over the forum.

And of course, that was a lot of circular reasoning and false assumptions in just one post

No further comment required

 

[blü 2]

And of course, that was a lot of circular reasoning and false assumptions in just one post

Really? Spell them out for us. Be specific.

Or would it be more accurate if you changed your netname to SavedbytheFalsehood, hey?

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Really? Spell them out for us. Be specific.

Or would it be more accurate if you changed your netname to SavedbytheFalsehood, hey?

All reasoning for evolution and billions of years is circular reasoning and not science.
This is it in a nutshell.
We know evolution and billions of years are true (conclusion is the assumption) and since we know evolution and billions of years are true (conclusion is the assumption) and such and such exists, it must have evolved because we know evolution and billions of years are true (restating the assumption as the conclusion).
Furthermore, any evidence that contradicts evolution and billions of years must be false because we know evolution and billions of years are true. (using the assumption as the proof)
Furthermore, they have no real rational answer to the origin of anything. But they know it must have happened because it must have happened by evolution because they know that evolution and billions of years are true. And they are absolutely sure that the answers will one day be found because they know that evolution and billions of years are true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And of course, that was a lot of circular reasoning and false assumptions in just one post

Really where? Once again, those apparently false accusations are not enough to refute his post. You need to demonstrate the circular reasoning (a concept that you have demonstrated that you do not understand) or demonstrate the false assumptions (and that is another concept that you do not seem to understand).

 

[Subduction Zone]

All reasoning for evolution and billions of years is circular reasoning and not science.
This is it in a nutshell.
We know evolution and billions of years are true (conclusion is the assumption) and since we know evolution and billions of years are true (conclusion is the assumption) and such and such exists, it must have evolved because we know evolution and billions of years are true (restating the assumption as the conclusion).
Furthermore, any evidence that contradicts evolution and billions of years must be false because we know evolution and billions of years are true. (using the assumption as the proof)
Furthermore, they have no real rational answer to the origin of anything. But they know it must have happened because it must have happened by evolution because they know that evolution and billions of years are true. And they are absolutely sure that the answers will one day be found because they know that evolution and billions of years are true.

I see that you are back to your strawman argument. The age of the Earth is not based upon evolution. We knew that the Earth was at least hundreds of millions of years before Darwin wrote his work. The billions of years does not rely on evolution either. That comes from radiometric dating. It does not come from evolution.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

I see that you are back to your strawman argument. The age of the Earth is not based upon evolution. We knew that the Earth was at least hundreds of millions of years before Darwin wrote his work. The billions of years does not rely on evolution either. That comes from radiometric dating. It does not come from evolution.

And all clocks prove that the Earth is only 1000s of years old not billions.

 

[John53]

And all clocks prove that the Earth is only 1000s of years old not billions.

Any clock with quartz in it is evidence the earth is at least hundreds of millions years old.

 

[blü 2]

All reasoning for evolution and billions of years is circular reasoning and not science.

You keep chanting that but not once have you made a case for anything to show it.

You don't even have a basic understanding of what science is or how it proceeds, let alone a basic understanding of biology or the theory of evolution that might allow you to offer any valid criticism of them,
'

We know evolution and billions of years are true

We discovered the age of the earth by discovering physics tests ─ the science of radiometric dating ─ that allow us to measure the age of the earth. You can read an outline of the science >here<.

You can offer nothing equivalent in support of your magical assertions. You can't even tell us how your claims might work in reality, how it could be possible for them to be true. That is, unlike science, you have no fact-based explanation as to how the earth formed.

And ─ correct me if I'm wrong ─ you appear not to realize that your creation story is older than your God, who doesn't appear in history till around 1500 BCE, and who begins as a generic tribal god in Semitic Canaanite tradition, one of many gods (as the bible itself makes plain). It's the myths of Mesopotamia, those of the Sumerians and Akkadians that you're championing.

Furthermore, any evidence that contradicts evolution and billions of years must be false because we know evolution and billions of years are true. (using the assumption as the proof)

You totally misunderstand. If you could actually demonstrate scientific errors in the dating of the earth, let alone in the theory of evolution, you'd be world-famous and showered with prizes once they'd been verified.

Science is never complete, always learning and growing and revising. Your yearning for a static mythic certainty has no factual support If it did, we'd be discussing that instead.

You can't even see that IF the Flood tale were historical THEN (as I told you previously) we'd find (amongst many many other things)

─ a single universal geological flood layer all over all continents and islands and the ocean floor and dated to the last (say) ten thousand years,

─ a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal, every bottleneck dating to the same time as the flood layer, and

─ a billion cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth

BUT we find NOTHING of the kind, absolutely nothing.

This doesn't worry you because you believe in magic. But unfortunately your belief in magic deprives you of any place to stand when it comes to criticizing science ─ because to do that, you need facts, not your ancient myths and legends.

Furthermore, they have no real rational answer to the origin of anything.

As to the origin of the cosmos, they have vastly better hypotheses than your magical ones. Theirs, unlike yours, are derived from the available facts about the universe, for a start.

But they know it must have happened because it must have happened by evolution

You keep parroting that. You fail to understand that evolution was discovered by observation, and that the theory of evolution has the power to explain what we find. It, like all of science, is a work in progress.

But if we point to the publication of Whitcomb and Morris's The Genesis Flood in 1961 as the great revival in Christian fundamentalism, then we can truthfully say that in the 62 years since then, Fundamentalism has failed to put even the tiniest scientific scratch on the theory of evolution.

Your fundamental(ist) problem is that you don't want to learn, and you neither have nor want an objective test to tell you what's true and what's not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And all clocks prove that the Earth is only 1000s of years old not billions.

Nope. "Clocks" of deposition rates prove that the Earth is hundreds of millions of years old at least. "Clocks" of erosion prove the same. Radiometric clocks, our most accurate clocks, show that the Earth is 4.55 billion years old. I can provide reliable sources for any of these.

 

[YoursTrue]

Is Ken Miller saved?
And if he is, that means he is deceived because God created everything in 6 days about 6000 years ago without evolution. Read Genesis 1 and 2.

You seem to have missed the fact the common traits do not mean descent. So that has been removed from an 'proof" of evolution forever.
Poof. Gone forever.

An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.
Commonalty between species proves nothing for evolution because of that however,
However sometimes there are inexplicable similarities or differences between species which falsify evolution and prove God Almighty the Creator of all things.

I like much of your reasoning but since you use the word 'saved,' in a question, may I ask what you mean when you ask if Ken Miller is saved?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I like much of your reasoning but since you use the word 'saved,' in a question, may I ask what you mean when you ask if Ken Miller is saved?

He seems to think that people that do not claim that God is a liar are not saved.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All reasoning for evolution and billions of years is circular reasoning and not science.
This is it in a nutshell.

You've been repeating the "nutshell" version ad nauseam.
I think it's time for you to unpack it and give us the detailed version where you explain HOW it is "circular" and you need to do that by citing actual scientific papers and point out the supposed circular reasoning IN those papers.

But you won't, will you?
Because your only gameplan is spewing falsehoods, intellectual dishonesty and just plain lies.

Prove me wrong.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I like much of your reasoning

What reasoning?

All he does is spread lies and falsehoods by way of baseless one-liners.
What do you think "reasoning" is?

 

[Aupmanyav]

An Intelligent Creator made both of them and reused common design elements.
All intelligent creators do that because it makes sense.

Yeah, intelligent creators reuse the common design, but in our case, the Creator forgot to remove the Appendix and the Coccyx.
Also he could have retained body-hair for colder climates like what is there among the Yetis, or bears. He was a bit careless.
Edit: I think he did not remove Appendix for the benefit of doctors and removed body-hair for the benefit of apparel and tent makers.
We would not have needed them if the Creator had done that. God is Great, Allahu-Akbar. الله أكبر