The Flood & Worldwide Festivals of the Dead — the connection.

[Left Coast]

Huh?!
There are quite a few citations! Your bias is blinding you.

No no, the citations listed are citations of the claims. Not the substantiation of what the claims say. That you cite a historian from 1904 does not give us the information to confirm how the historian got that information.

Your motivated reasoning has you convinced by things that are quite unconvincing.

Regarding autumn : these festivals honor dead humans, not death of nature. “On the 17th day of the second month” of their respective calendars.

Humans are part of nature, not separate from it. "On the 17th day of the second month" applied to some examples you gave, not all (assuming the math/dating is actually correct as given, which I doubt) and one of which was a celebration in Egypt of one particular death of a God, not of mass death.

Regarding Feralia, a quick look at Wiki would've revealed that the holiday was February 21st, not 17th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feralia

That's a few examples for you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No no, the citations listed are citations of the claims. Not the substantiation of what the claims say. That you cite a historian from 1904 does not give us the information to confirm how the historian got that information.

Your motivated reasoning has you convinced by things that are quite unconvincing.



Humans are part of nature, not separate from it. "On the 17th day of the second month" applied to some examples you gave, not all (assuming the math/dating is actually correct as given, which I doubt) and one of which was a celebration in Egypt of one particular death of a God, not of mass death.

Regarding Feralia, a quick look at Wiki would've revealed that the holiday was February 21st, not 17th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feralia

That's a few examples for you.

That is even worse than it looks. When @Hockeycowboy was talking about the "second month" He was talking about the civil (not the ecclesiastical second month which is what the Jews seem to follow) second month. That is roughly October. And of course I say 'roughly" because the Hebrews were on a lunar calendar. Their dates simply cannot match up to ours consistently. Look at the day that passover falls on. Or Chanukah. Or any Jewish holiday. It will not be on the same day every year. One simply cannot say "this is the same day" when comparing annual events using two different calendars. They simply cannot match each year.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No. They are not all on the same date. That is the claim. It does not appear to be supported. There are some, repeat, some celebrations around that date. You can never claim the same date for Mayans or other such groups because the two different calendar will not give the same date in each year.

Now if every year the date was adjusted to the Jewish calendar you might have something. But a fall festival in autumn is no different from a vernal festival in spring. You are merely amazed because there is not one stitch of reliable evidence for your flood.

Yep, these cultures holding their feasts for the dead are / were on their respective Calendars as “the 17th day of the second month”, just as Genesis 7:11 states. That is amazing!


Gotta love what verifiable history can reveal!

 

[Left Coast]

Days celebrating the dead in various cultures:

Chinese: Qingming Festival - falls on the 15th day after the spring equinox, which appears to be approximately in their third month of the traditional Chinese calendar.

Russian Orthodoxy: Radonitsa - falls on either the second Monday or Tuesday of Pascha (Orthodox Easter)

Hindu: Pitru Paksha - begins on the full moon and ends on the new moon of the month of Bhadrapada, which is the 6th month of their calendar, usually in August/September in our calendar.

Please don't make me look up more. The point is clear. This perceived pattern falls apart upon examination. It does appear that there are a variety of cultures that honor the dead around the time of year after the harvest, but again, that has likely to do with time of year.

Are we done yet?

 

[Left Coast]

That is even worse than it looks. When @Hockeycowboy was talking about the "second month" He was talking about the civil (not the ecclesiastical second month which is what the Jews seem to follow) second month. That is roughly October. And of course I say 'roughly" because the Hebrews were on a lunar calendar. Their dates simply cannot match up to ours consistently. Look at the day that passover falls on. Or Chanukah. Or any Jewish holiday. It will not be on the same day every year. One simply cannot say "this is the same day" when comparing annual events using two different calendars. They simply cannot match each year.

I thought that was the case, but was hoping a Jewish member would confirm.

 

[Rival]

@Hockeycowboy

The Beautiful Festival of the Valley, or heb nefer en inet in Egyptian,[1] was a celebration of the dead.[2] It could be more ancient than the Opet Festival as it can be traced back to the Middle Kingdom.[3] It was said to be held as a remembrance of the dead, from the beginning of the Middle Kingdom.[4] However, when joined with the Festival of Opet, the holy procession became the main event of the liturgical calendar of Thebes.[2] The annual festival was held at the New Moon of Month Two. This was the summer season, shemu, and the 10th month in a calendar of 12.[5] During Hatshepsut's reign she carried out both the Opet and The Beautiful Festival of the Valley to Amun.[6] [Wiki]

So it would have changed and, though it was in the 10th month of 12, which they considered the 2nd month, wouldn't have consistently matched our October. There's no 17th here.

Ancient Egyptian festivals centred on procession by land and river, and were celebrated on particular days or series of days in the official year. The official year (365 days) was just short of the solar year (the time the earth takes to go around the sun, 365 1/4 days); as a result, the official year gradually moved back, with the official 'winter' months and their festivals falling into the summer. There seems to be no attempt to move the festivals, even those relating to agricultural events in the solar year such as flood, or the low-river sowing season.

Festivals in the ancient Egyptian calendar

 

[Subduction Zone]

I thought that was the case, but was hoping a Jewish member would confirm.

No need since the OP confirmed that he was using the civil calendar himself. He puts the events in October, not February. I think that he might have been off more than a little bit in the Roman one that you cited.

And all of the others too. This is a typical action by believers. They count the hits or near hits. Or ones that did not miss by "too much" and ignore all of the total misses. Plus there is a rational explanation why many places have such a holiday in the fall. No appeal to the Flood needed.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No no, the citations listed are citations of the claims. Not the substantiation of what the claims say. That you cite a historian from 1904 does not give us the information to confirm how the historian got that information.

Your motivated reasoning has you convinced by things that are quite unconvincing.



Humans are part of nature, not separate from it. "On the 17th day of the second month" applied to some examples you gave, not all (assuming the math/dating is actually correct as given, which I doubt) and one of which was a celebration in Egypt of one particular death of a God, not of mass death.

Regarding Feralia, a quick look at Wiki would've revealed that the holiday was February 21st, not 17th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feralia

That's a few examples for you.

These were lunar calendars! (Most, back then, were.) They’re going to change them a little, from year to year, to keep up with the seasons & equinoxes.

But here is an interesting fact.... The Parentalia was celebrated starting when? The 13th to the 21st. What would the median date be? The 17th.

And this site gets, shall we say, “involved”:


Early Roman Calendar | Calendars

 

[Subduction Zone]

Huh?!
There are quite a few citations! Your bias is blinding you.

Historical facts are historical facts, whether reported by Niall Ferguson or Josephus. (“100 years” makes no difference,)

Regarding autumn : these festivals honor dead humans, not death of nature. “On the 17th day of the second month” of their respective calendars.

Did you check with any Jews before launching this argument that is rife with special pleading? Are you sure that you are using the right calendar?

 

[Left Coast]

These were lunar calendars! (Most, back then, were.) They’re going to change them a little, from year to year, to keep up with the seasons & equinoxes.

No no. The thing that "changes a little year to year" is how a lunar calendar maps onto a solar one. That has nothing to with your claim that all these things happen on exactly the 17th day of the second month of each of their respective (lunar or solar) calendars.

But here is an interesting fact.... The Parentalia was celebrated starting when? The 13th to the 21st. What would the median date be? The 17th.

Who cares what the "median date" is?

You are trying to keep this thing somehow strung together from whatever random bits of information you can somehow twist to make fit.

That isn't how objective investigators form ideas about the world. They don't start with a conclusion and work backwards to try to see what they can make fit. They look at the data as it honestly presents itself and let the data guide their conclusions.

See post #84. There are too many contradictory data points here. It's a half baked hypothesis.

 

[Rival]

That is even worse than it looks. When @Hockeycowboy was talking about the "second month" He was talking about the civil (not the ecclesiastical second month which is what the Jews seem to follow) second month. That is roughly October. And of course I say 'roughly" because the Hebrews were on a lunar calendar. Their dates simply cannot match up to ours consistently. Look at the day that passover falls on. Or Chanukah. Or any Jewish holiday. It will not be on the same day every year. One simply cannot say "this is the same day" when comparing annual events using two different calendars. They simply cannot match each year.

They use a complex luni-solar calendar but you are right the dates would never consistently match.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Days celebrating the dead in various cultures:

Chinese: Qingming Festival - falls on the 15th day after the spring equinox, which appears to be approximately in their third month of the traditional Chinese calendar.

Russian Orthodoxy: Radonitsa - falls on either the second Monday or Tuesday of Pascha (Orthodox Easter)

Hindu: Pitru Paksha - begins on the full moon and ends on the new moon of the month of Bhadrapada, which is the 6th month of their calendar, usually in August/September in our calendar.

Please don't make me look up more. The point is clear. This perceived pattern falls apart upon examination. It does appear that there are a variety of cultures that honor the dead around the time of year after the harvest, but again, that has likely to do with time of year.

Are we done yet?

Please. No way “are we done.”
You found 3 that don’t match up? (There may even be others).

My wife & I grow crops including squash, at times.
When 3 or 5 or 7 don’t produce, I don’t throw the rest out, not when the other 50 are good.

And did you check their ancient calendars? Maybe they correspond to the “17th of the second month”

.
I find nothing wrong with most of Garnier’s tome.
However, I have found some problems with *one* of his many sources. R.G. Haliburton. (He seemed to be a respected person.)
I’m going to try to find more on his research.

Of course, showing support for the Bible creates enemies. To be expected.

 

[Rival]

It does appear that there are a variety of cultures that honor the dead around the time of year after the harvest, but again, that has likely to do with time of year.

It's kind of like asking why are all the rejuvenation festivals in March and April, really. I've learnt a deal about festivals now though.

 

[Left Coast]

Please. No way “are we done.”
You found 3 that don’t match up? (There may even be others).

My wife & I grow crops including squash, at times.
When 3 or 5 or 7 don’t produce, I don’t throw the rest out, not when the other 50 are good.

LOL you didn't find remotely near 50 that fit your strange hypothesis. Of the handful you did find, I already found flaws in 2. So do you really want to keep this going?

Here's another for you:

Japan: Obon or Bon: occurs on different days depending on the region of Japan, but never anywhere near the 17th day of the second month. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Festival

Korea: Ghost Day occurs on the 15th day of the 7th month of their calendar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Festival

And did you check their ancient calendars? Maybe they correspond to the “17th of the second month”

And maybe they don't. The Chinese and Hindu dating refers to their older, lunar calendars. The Orthodox have a liturgical calendar but it isn't divided into months in the sense of a typical calendar so the comparison doesn't apply.

I find nothing wrong with most of Garnier’s tome.
However, I have found some problems with *one* of his many sources. R.G. Haliburton. (He seemed to be a respected person.)
I’m going to try to find more on his research.

Weird that you didn't cite these "many" sources.

Of course, showing support for the Bible creates enemies. To be expected.

You think I'm your enemy? Yikes.

It's unfortunate that your religion has taught you that anyone who dares challenge your religious ideas is an "enemy." I'm sorry you've internalized that idea.

I'm not your enemy, needless to say. Just another person doing their best in this life.

 

[ChristineM]

You got the first paragraph of the OP wrong. I do know Noah's flood (or whatever you want to call it) did not happen based on evidence. Copious, evidence fron myriad different sorces.

I have offered some of this evidence here on RF along with using my avatar as part of that proof.

Of course, flood believers reject that hard, physical evidence because it conflicts with their personal belief.

 

[SalixIncendium]

**MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES**​

 

[YoursTrue]

The idea of shared flood myths and festivals is the crux of the OP's argument tho.

So you have one group that didn't have it written in their history? (big deal...) As I said, not every history records what happened before they were a "civilization." Ya think? Furthermore, thinking about this coming celebration of what? the dead? ghoulish looking things? Why is it all so scary looking? Why the threats, trick or treat? Why do you think that is? When I look at costumes and drawings about this, for the most part, they are goblins, wicked looking scary creatures. It doesn't appear to be a big celebration of happiness but rather posed to frighten people.

 

[YoursTrue]

You got the first paragraph of the OP wrong. I do know Noah's flood (or whatever you want to call it) did not happen based on evidence. Copious, evidence fron myriad different sorces.

I have offered some of this evidence here on RF along with using my avatar as part of that proof.

Of course, flood believers reject that hard, physical evidence because it conflicts with their personal belief.

Can you please give a reference to that evidence you say demonstrates a worldwide flood did not happen? I don't have that much time to search for the post. I was just reading in a rather well-respected book on evolution a statement about when early hominids were discovered, and at least the author was detailed in stated, "IF" the assumptions of the discoverers are correct. The big "if" there. At least the author got that right after he posited the dates others have assigned to discoveries. Yes, this is related to assumptions on the part of those who do not believe there was a worldwide flood.
Remember -- nothing is ever proven in what is called science.
Debunking Geology’s ‘No Flood, Ever’ Theory: Historical Analysis & Bathymetry Evidence on New Maps – The Worldwide Flood

 

[Rival]

So you have one group that didn't have it written in their history? (big deal...) As I said, not every history records what happened before they were a "civilization." Ya think? Furthermore, thinking about this coming celebration of what? the dead? ghoulish looking things? Why is it all so scary looking? Why the threats, trick or treat? Why do you think that is? When I look at costumes and drawings about this, for the most part, they are goblins, wicked looking scary creatures. It doesn't appear to be a big celebration of happiness but rather posed to frighten people.

Almost no group in the whole of Africa, a massive continent, records a flood. I'm not sure why you think that's so insignificant. And the civilisation that gave us the oldest known religious literature does not record it. That's significant.

And because that's how Halloween is celebrated.

 

[firedragon]

There's no Deluge myth in Kemetic religion (Ancient Egyptian) and it's one of the oldest recorded religions in history, with the oldest recorded body of religious literature (the Pyramid Texts). I note your source says 'with the exception of the Negro races', so could be referring to this absence. However, if one of the oldest known religious traditions hasn't any mention of it, I think this hurts your theory.

Since this religion does not have a corpus or a collection as scripture, making absence of evidence evidence of absence is historically a mythicists approach.

But your point is taken. Actually I am surprised by your knowledge. Who would think of Kemetic religions and know about them!