The Folly of Atheism

[Left Coast]

I would not worry about that.
To my knowledge, God does not send anyone to hell because they are atheists, not if my religion is true.

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"

(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)​

On the other hand, if Christianity is the One True Religion, then it could be another story.

Or Islam. Or some others I'm probably not thinking of, or even aware of.

I have been duly informed by some Christians that as a Baha'i I am going to hell even though I believe in Jesus, because I do not believe in the same Jesus they believe in, as if there is more than one Jesus...

Woo hoo! Welcome to the club, heathen!

 

[usfan]

Another folly of atheism is the intense hostility that some of them have, toward theism, and especially 'Christians!!' .....

Not content with their own beliefs, they feel compelled to ridicule, mock, and belittle other's beliefs. They are aggressive, militant, and intolerant of diversity of opinion, and present demeaning caricatures of the beliefs of theists.

Why is that?

Insecurity?
Religious bigotry?
Confirmation Bias?
Anger or resentment toward God, so take it out on other Believers?

..probably lots of reasons

 

[siti]

God does not show up is because God does not want those people who would only believe in Him if He showed up to believe in Him

Well then he should be happy - they don't...do they get a reward for that?

 

[Left Coast]

For some reason one of my posts deleted after I reposted another response to my own response. So my replies are now out of order and I hope you can follow them based on my quotes of you. Sorry!

That is true, someone is wrong.


So, are you saying that the only reason it would be important for you to believe in God would be because of what might happen to you in the afterlife if you don’t believe in God? This certainly is a consideration, since the afterlife is forever whereas our life on this earth is very short and temporary.

It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a big one. The other thing I mentioned is whether God wants me to know he exists. If he doesn't, then why would I care? If a guy doesn't want to know me, that's cool, we can live our own lives and go our merry ways. Unfortunately, religion does not generally abide that view in the long-term.

It is not a limitation on God’s part; it is a choice God made because God does not want to communicate directly with ordinary human beings.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere! So God has chosen this state of affairs where he doesn't communicate as directly as he could, because he doesn't want to! Thank you. That was my original point that you took issue with. Glad we now agree I was correct.

It seems absurd to you because you think God should do this because you want God to do this. But that does not mean it is absurd. You just are not getting what you want so you call it absurd. That is psych 101 stuff, and I do it myself, all the time, when I perceive God is sitting on his ***.

No no, incorrect. It's not that I want God to do this at all. If God wants to hide, good riddance. My point is that if God wants to be indisputably known and believed by everyone, using middle men is absurd. If that's not his goal, sure, go ahead, use a crappy method that will result in mass confusion and endless conflict.

So, since we are not going to make an All-Powerful God do what we want Him to do, we have three choices:


1. Complain about it

2. Try to understand the ways of God

3. Forget about God altogether


I do #1 once in a while but then I move on to #2. I wish I could do #3, but given all the evidence for God’s existence I do not consider that a wise choice.

What evidence?

So you could say that God has me right where he wants me and now I am challenged to find a solution. But it is really not that because it does not matter how much I scream at God; I cannot hurt God, and anything that God wants is for my own benefit, not for His benefit. I only know these things because Baha’u’llah wrote them. Otherwise I would be up the creek without a paddle.

This is just fundamentalism by another name. Baha'u'llah said it; I believe it; that settles it!


I'm sorry, I am just never going to be able to revert back to that mentality anymore. I require evidence for my beliefs beyond someone's say-so.

I do not understand why anyone would ever want to hear from God directly or see Him, but there are indications from NDEs that is what happens after we die, the Being of Light. After that, we do not really know what happens; God might go back into His cave.

You can't understand why people would want to see and hear from God directly? To ask him questions? To learn the secrets of the universe? To know how and why he does what he does? Maybe you should ask a few of your fellow theists; I know plenty in my personal life who would love to have a chat with their deity.

I could understand why you would think that if the Bible was all you had to go on, because it is like an unmapped swamp, impossible to navigate and understand. The Qur’an is much easier to understand but now we have the Writings of Baha’u’llah so we do not need the older scriptures. I cannot say you would understand the Writings of Baha’u’llah if you read them cold, but we also have the Writings of the appointed interpreters of the Baha’i Faith, so one way or another there is something we can read and understand.

LOL so wait a minute. The writings of the former Messengers are too hard to understand, which is why we needed the more recent Messenger. But it's probably going to be too tough to understand the more recent Messenger's teachings ourselves, so we need "appointed interpreters" to unpack them for us. The Messengers need Messengers!

Come on, Trail. You seem like an insightful, intelligent woman. You can't seriously think an omnipotent, omniscient being arranged this mess. Or that it's the most effective way for him to get a message across.

The question is: Why are words on a page not good enough? I get it that those are not proof that God exists to you, but if you came to understand and accept that is the only way God communicates, and why, then maybe it would constitute proof, or maybe not.

Anyone can write words on a page. How do you demonstrate that those words on the page, penned by a human being, are actually the words of a deity?

But it does matter if the religion is really old because those older religions do not contain the message that God wants us to have in this new age; so by clinging to them as most people do, that precludes them getting the message for this age.

That all rests on the assumption that your religion is the true one, which you have yet to demonstrate.

It wouldn’t be any different, if the reasons people believed in it were emotional. I cannot speak for other Baha’is, only for myself, and I know my reasons are not emotional. If I could follow my emotions I would be an atheist.

Thus far the only reason you've presented is that you believe that human beings are the most effective way for an omnipotent being to get a message to us that we'll know is his. I think I've shown through multiple posts why that's hooey.

The caveat is that once we belief in God, God can communicate to our minds, if we let Him in. That is what prayer and meditation are all about.

If you're familiar with psychology, you should know that's a really easy way to fall into self-deception. When messages between you and your deity can't be independently confirmed, how do you know they're not just the product of your own mind?

But we cannot have a conversation with God where God talks back, like Moses at the Burning Bush, because God is far too exalted to lower Himself down to this level.

No, we cannot have a conversation with God where God talks back because God chose for it to be that way, remember? We agreed on this already.


If God could create Moses in such a way that he could talk to him, he could have created all of us that way. He chose not to.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it's a matter of you being incorrect.

Or it is a matter of you being incorrect.

In a godless universe, we would not expect for God to ever reveal himself.

In a universe where God exists, we would not expect anything from God, because humans putting expectations on God is patently illogical

Thus our only alleged access to the divine would come from however God chooses to allow us to gain access, whatever that might be.

In a theistic universe, the above scenario could occur, but only in the following conditions:

1) God doesn't want to reveal himself, and makes the universe appear godless - in which case, why believe in him?

God did reveal Himself in the form of Messengers who are perfect mirror images of God. You are in no way obligated to believe in those Messengers or in God.

2) God is not omnipotent, and thus literally can't communicate with us in any way directly - in which case, he's either so impotent I don't know why we're calling him God, or he chose to create a creation he can't communicate with - which brings us back to #1.

God is omnipotent, and thus literally can communicate with us in any way He chooses to. God can and does communicate with humans, but not directly. God does not want to communicate with humans directly, what about that do you not understand? Why do you think you can call the shots for an Omnipotent God, telling Him how He should communicate?

Being omnipotent in no way implies that God should do everything that God can do, and it in no way implies that God should do what humans want or expect Him to do. It is the epitome of illogic that an omnipotent God would take marching orders from humans.

Again, replace Baha'u'llah with the Bible or the Catholic church or the LDS church or L. Ron Hubbard or (fill in the blank) and you've got the classic recipe of fundamentalism. I'm sorry, I need more evidence than someone's say-so.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God is not that He claimed to be a Manifestation of God, because that would be circular reasoning. Nobody can prove that they got messages from God, but whether we choose to believe the claim or not is based upon the evidence that supports the claim.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

Baha’u’llah had a good character, an important mission on earth that was completed successfully, and scriptures that contain valuable information about God and other things we need to know in order to fulfill the purpose for our existence. Those scriptures have social teachings and laws for this new age in this new age and the blueprint instructions humanity needs to build the Kingdom of God on earth. There is a religion established by His followers who are living according to the teachings and laws and completing the tasks assigned by Him. Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that refer to the Messiah and the return of Christ, many of which are so specific and that they could not be fulfilled by anyone else in the future. On top of all that, Baha’u’llah made many predictions that came to pass.

It's not a catch-22 as much as it's just circular reasoning.

It is not circular at all because I did not begin with what I was trying to end with.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

I was not trying to prove God exists by looking at Baha’u’llah, so I was not trying to end with a belief in God. It just so happened that after looking at everything that surrounds His Revelation that was proof to me that He was a Manifestation of God, which was proof that God exists.

And your evidence that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God is...?

See above.

No, "Logic 101 stuff" is that an omnipotent being can do whatever he wants.

No, "Logic 101 stuff" is that an omnipotent being only does what He wants to do.

I have been listening to this from atheists for five years; God can do anything because God is omnipotent. What they are really saying is that God is omnipotent so God should do what I think He should do; but any God that took orders from humans would cease to be an omnipotent God. It is incredible how many times I have explained this and maybe one or two atheists out of a hundred understood it.

Including create a creation he can talk directly to.

Obviously God did not want to do that, so He didn’t. Obviously God knows more than you do because God is All-Knowing and you are not.

"Logic 101 stuff" is that direct communication is the most effective form of communication, and thus if God's goal is to effectively communicate he would do so directly.

"Logic 101 stuff" is that direct communication is not the most effective form of communication; if it was, an All-Knowing God would have used it as His method of communication.

The use of Messengers of God has garnered the belief of 93% of people in the world, so why should God change His time-honored method of communication just because less than 7% of people in the world do not like the method God chose? I say less than 7% because not all atheists are even looking for communication from God.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

You've already conceded that this is not a necessary state of affairs we're in. God made this game and invented the rules. He could have done it differently. Yet you keep falling back on this line of reasoning like it just has to be this way. It doesn't.

It does have to be this way because God is omnipotent so God calls ALL the shots. Humans are not omnipotent so they do not call the shots on anything God does.

God made this game and invented the rules. Whether or not God could have done it differently is a moot point, because God did not choose to do it differently. We have free will so we can choose to (1) play by God’s rules, or (2) complain about God’s rules, or (3) believe God does not exist. Those are the three choices we have.

That is a great way to rationalize literally anything about God that doesn't make sense. God rapes someone - oh what little puny human, don't you think the morally perfect God has better morals than you?

No, it is just the reality, that if God exists God is All-Knowing and All-Wise. That does not mean we cannot question what God does or does not do, but no human can be All-Knowing and All-Wise, let alone more than All-Knowing and All-Wise, so it makes no logical sense to question God’s choices and actions. It makes more logical sense to say God does not exist.

God is ostensibly more powerful than humans, so he should be able to communicate even more effectively than humans! Yet his communication is no better than if he weren't there at all. So yes, your search is over - this belief in Messengers makes no sense 10 ways from Sunday.

Well, you are simply wrong about that because 93% of people in the world believe in God and most of those people believe in God have a religion that was established by a founder, which I refer to as a Messenger. So God has communicated very effectively. But for some odd reason atheists just cannot come to accept the way God communicates. They want curb service from God but God does not provide curb service.

It's arrogant to want to speak directly to someone to ensure you understand them properly?

Get outta here. It's completely reasonable and ordinary.

It is not reasonable or ordinary because nobody but a few atheists expects God to communicate directly to them. What does that tell you? It tells me that most people simply accept how God chose to communicate.

There is no reason to think you could not understand what the Messengers wrote. It is the same as if you got it directly, except that unlike you, the Messengers have a divine mind so they have the ability to understand God and translate what God says into human language.

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)

 

[Trailblazer]

Bad move on his part, since there aren't any rational reasons I've seen.

Well if you have actually searched for God and you do not see a rational reason to believe in God, game over.
You have done your homework and you do not have to believe in God.

If faith just means confidence, then sure, but our confidence can only reasonably be proportional to the strength of the evidence available (which for God is pi$$ poor). If faith means belief without (good) evidence, then God is expecting something unreasonable and potentially quite dangerous.

You cannot even imagine how many times I have heard this in the last five years.

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. There is no such thing as “good evidence” because what is evidence to some people is not evidence to other people. There is evidence but the interpretation of that evidence is highly subjective.

This does help me frame your other statements somewhat. If God doesn't love me, then I guess some of the things he's alleged to do are completely predictable. But if that's the case - if he doesn't love me and doesn't even want me to know him - I damn sure better never be expected to worship him, or even believe he's there if he continues hiding.

All I have to go on is what Baha’u’llah wrote about God, since there is no other way to know anything about God (aside from what previous Messengers of God revealed about God).

Obviously my beef with God is different from yours. I do not believe God is hiding but I do not like the way God created the world with so much suffering. That is a pretty big beef and one I have to try to work out in my mind, before I will be able to let God into my heart. You see, I believe in God but that does not mean I am close to God, as I am enjoined to be.

I believe that God loves us all, whether we are believers or nonbelievers:

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."
('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

Sure, God loves us, but here is the stipulation; if we do not love God, God’s love cannot reach us.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I think that is unfair because love cannot be forced. I think God should try to break through our inability to love Him because I see no harm that can come from that. As I see it, God is just being stubborn.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or Islam. Or some others I'm probably not thinking of, or even aware of.

I do not know exactly what The Qur'an says about hell, who goes there and how they wind up there.
And I suppose, just as with Christianity, there re many different interpretations of what is in the Qur'an.

Woo hoo! Welcome to the club, heathen!

Do you know how many Christian forums have either banned me or put me on moderation or asked me to leave? This forum has been a very positive experience with Christians, who are super cool with Baha'is and super cool in general.

So here is my most recent forum experience. Me and my atheist friends were on this forum that was abandoned by the owner and there were no moderators so it was everyone to themselves. It was mostly Christians on that forum and I only went there (knowing how I would not be well received) because my atheist friends invited me to go there...

So we were all on that forum for quite a while and the main Christian (a Trinitarian fundamentalist) kept telling me I was a Baha'i atheist and I was going to end up right where all those other atheists are going, to a lake of fire. That went on for quite a while. I answered his posts but it was so repetitive and insulting that I stopped answering them, since he was just using me as a platform to berate the Baha'u'llah.

Then one day this Christian who was new on the forum reported the forum to the staff of that forum group because another Christian was talking like a white supremacist and he thought that was horrible. So that day the forum got shut down by the forum management.

Well, nobody liked that it was shut down so the main Christian started his own forum with a similar name and at first it was okay. He seemed to have turned over a new leaf, but then it went right back to what it had been before it was his forum. He got power hungry and he banned my best atheist friend for no other reason than he posted a lot of posts, and then when he put me on moderation I left that forum. All my other other friends slowly decided to leave and they all came to my forum so all that is left on that forum is about four Christians who pat each other on the back. They have no more atheists to pick on. Serves them right.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well then he should be happy - they don't...do they get a reward for that?

The only reason God does not show up is not because God does not want those people who would only believe in Him if He showed up to believe in Him. That is just ONE reason.

I cannot say if God is happy. As you know, He does not talk to me and tell me anything. He keeps to Himself on the top of His mountain sitting on His Throne of Glory. The only people who ever see Him are His Messengers.

 

[Left Coast]

In a universe where God exists, we would not expect anything from God, because humans putting expectations on God is patently illogical

In that case, your God is completely unfalsifiable because you can literally ascribe any state of affairs to his doing. So there's no way to tell his existence apart from his non-existence. Which makes theism patently illogical, friend.

Thus our only alleged access to the divine would come from however God chooses to allow us to gain access, whatever that might be.

And if that method would exist in a godless universe, then again, it's not useful for determining whether God is actually there or people are just claiming so.

God is omnipotent, and thus literally can communicate with us in any way He chooses to. God can and does communicate with humans, but not directly. God does not want to communicate with humans directly, what about that do you not understand?

Lol, I understand it perfectly Trail. That's what I said from the very beginning of this conversation. It's what I literally just got through re-explaining to you in my last post. You kept invoking God's nature or him being spirit or too lofty or whatever other excuses, as though it just has to be that way. My entire point to you this whole time is that that's all nonsense - things are the way they are because he chose it to be that way. Which means he could choose another way, if he wanted. But he doesn't. So if he communicates in a way that's unconvincing to millions, no, billions of people, that's 100% his fault.

Why do you think you can call the shots for an Omnipotent God, telling Him how He should communicate?

I don't "call the shots." I know what omnipotence means and I know what good communication is and what crappy communication is. Any kid who's played telephone can figure this out. Which means, since he's omnipotent, he could communicate better than he does. But he doesn't. So for the 20th time, he chooses an inferior, unconvincing, crappy form of communication.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God is not that He claimed to be a Manifestation of God, because that would be circular reasoning. Nobody can prove that they got messages from God, but whether we choose to believe the claim or not is based upon the evidence that supports the claim.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

Baha’u’llah had a good character, an important mission on earth that was completed successfully, and scriptures that contain valuable information about God and other things we need to know in order to fulfill the purpose for our existence. Those scriptures have social teachings and laws for this new age in this new age and the blueprint instructions humanity needs to build the Kingdom of God on earth. There is a religion established by His followers who are living according to the teachings and laws and completing the tasks assigned by Him. Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that refer to the Messiah and the return of Christ, many of which are so specific and that they could not be fulfilled by anyone else in the future. On top of all that, Baha’u’llah made many predictions that came to pass.

Too large a rabbit trail for here it seems. Start a thread?

It is not circular at all because I did not begin with what I was trying to end with.

I was not trying to prove God exists by looking at Baha’u’llah, so I was not trying to end with a belief in God.

It just so happened that after looking at everything that surrounds His Revelation that was proof to me that He was a Manifestation of God, which was proof that God exists.

How do you know God exists? Baha'u'llah says he exists. How do you know Baha'u'llah's teachings are true? He's a Messenger of God.

Seems pretty circular.

If you start another thread about the evidence for Baha'u'llah we can go into the things you mentioned in more depth.

"Logic 101 stuff" is that direct communication is not the most effective form of communication; if it was, an All-Knowing God would have used it as His method of communication.

You assume God is all-knowing. You haven't demonstrated that. And again, the idea that indirect communication is more effective, or convincing, than direct communication is contradicted by literally all communication we're familiar with as a species. Replying, "but he's god" is an irrelevant excuse, because he's a God talking to humans. Thus he should know how we communicate and what is effective or ineffective.

The use of Messengers of God has garnered the belief of 93% of people in the world,

No, it hasn't. Utter bull****. The method has garnered the belief of 93% of people in some version of "God," with wildly contradictory definitions and interpretations of who he is, what he's done, and what he wants from us. Only 0.1% of the world have actually gotten the correct message. That is abysmally poor communication - and is rate of communication we'd expect of a man-made religion like say, Mormonism (17 million) or Scientology (difficult to get stats, could be a couple million).

No, it is just the reality, that if God exists God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.

Yea if. Giant if. And if he's a made-up myth, he doesn't know a thing. And could be alleged to do all kinds of objectionable, silly things.

That does not mean we cannot question what God does or does not do, but no human can be All-Knowing and All-Wise, let alone more than All-Knowing and All-Wise, so it makes no logical sense to question God’s choices and actions. It makes more logical sense to say God does not exist.

Nonsense. If God says 1+1=3, sorry, God is factually incorrect. It makes perfectly logical sense to point that out. Now I agree that if we found out God said 1+1=3, that would mean he's not all-knowing...so should we really call him God? In which case I suppose you could say therefore God doesn't exist.

It is not reasonable or ordinary because nobody but a few atheists expects God to communicate directly to them. What does that tell you? It tells me that most people simply accept how God chose to communicate.

As we've already covered (I thought?) what "most people" do is irrelevant; most people adhere to their religion for totally uncritical reasons.

There is no reason to think you could not understand what the Messengers wrote. It is the same as if you got it directly, except that unlike you, the Messengers have a divine mind so they have the ability to understand God and translate what God says into human language.

The only problem, again, is how in the world I could know I was actually reading God's words?

 

[Left Coast]

I do not know exactly what The Qur'an says about hell, who goes there and how they wind up there.
And I suppose, just as with Christianity, there re many different interpretations of what is in the Qur'an.

Do you know how many Christian forums have either banned me or put me on moderation or asked me to leave? This forum has been a very positive experience with Christians, who are super cool with Baha'is and super cool in general.

So here is my most recent forum experience. Me and my atheist friends were on this forum that was abandoned by the owner and there were no moderators so it was everyone to themselves. It was mostly Christians on that forum and I only went there (knowing how I would not be well received) because my atheist friends invited me to go there...

So we were all on that forum for quite a while and the main Christian (a Trinitarian fundamentalist) kept telling me I was a Baha'i atheist and I was going to end up right where all those other atheists are going, to a lake of fire. That went on for quite a while. I answered his posts but it was so repetitive and insulting that I stopped answering them, since he was just using me as a platform to berate the Baha'u'llah.

Then one day this Christian who was new on the forum reported the forum to the staff of that forum group because another Christian was talking like a white supremacist and he thought that was horrible. So that day the forum got shut down by the forum management.

Well, nobody liked that it was shut down so the main Christian started his own forum with a similar name and at first it was okay. He seemed to have turned over a new leaf, but then it went right back to what it had been before it was his forum. He got power hungry and he banned my best atheist friend for no other reason than he posted a lot of posts, and then when he put me on moderation I left that forum. All my other other friends slowly decided to leave and they all came to my forum so all that is left on that forum is about four Christians who pat each other on the back. They have no more atheists to pick on. Serves them right.

That's one reason I enjoy RF - lots of different perspectives that encourage me to see things in ways I hadn't considered. And we - mostly - get along.

I'm headed to bed, sorry I couldn't get to everything you posted yet, it'll have to wait. Busy week this week so my time on RF may be limited. Good night!

 

[ArtieE]

We know that what they wrote is authentic because we have all their original Writings that have been authenticated. They are all stored in the archives at the World Centre of the Baha'i Faith in Haifa, Israel.

OK. What criteria do you use to determine whether what they wrote is correct or not? Do you just believe or do you use logic, reason, evidence, do you look for contradictions or inconsistencies, do you compare their writings to other sources etc?

 

[ArtieE]

Another folly of atheism is the intense hostility that some of them have, toward theism, and especially 'Christians!!' ..... Why is that?

Because of ignorant Christian people like you pretending to know what they're talking about intentionally spreading misinformation about atheism and atheists. You are ruining it for all Christians.

 

[Workman]

I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism.

And, since there is a disproportionately high number of vocal, proactive atheists here, a light hearted look at atheism should be welcome relief from the seriousness and intensity that some display.

A false dilemma
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option. (from wiki)

The dilemma presented is usually like this:

'If you cannot prove God's existence, then He does not exist!'

But, there are other possibilities, not just the 'either/or' of this dilemma.

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence.
2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering.
3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled.
4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality.
5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist.

We do not have enough evidence, individually, to categorically declare one of these possibilities as 'truth!', and dismiss all others. Therefore, this argument is fallacious, based on a false dilemma.

Usfan..brother!

Why do you always disturb ‘The Sleep’.

Let them Sleep in Peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a big one. The other thing I mentioned is whether God wants me to know he exists. If he doesn't, then why would I care? If a guy doesn't want to know me, that's cool, we can live our own lives and go our merry ways. Unfortunately, religion does not generally abide that view in the long-term.

It is not that God does not want you to know that He exists. God wants you to know, but God does not need you to know because God does not have any needs since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining. We need God, God does not need us.

The reason God wants you to know He exists is for your benefit, not for God’s benefit, because God does not need anything for Himself. I hope that makes sense.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere! So God has chosen this state of affairs where he doesn't communicate as directly as he could, because he doesn't want to! Thank you. That was my original point that you took issue with. Glad we now agree I was correct.

I did not know that was your original point but I am glad we finally got that straightened out.

No no, incorrect. It's not that I want God to do this at all. If God wants to hide, good riddance. My point is that if God wants to be indisputably known and believed by everyone, using middle men is absurd. If that's not his goal, sure, go ahead, use a crappy method that will result in mass confusion and endless conflict.

Well, finally we get down to the nitty-gritty. It normally goes this way.

You are right that God does not want (I mean need) to be indisputably known and believed by everyone. If He did want that He would have made sure that He was known by everyone because He could do that since He is omnipotent. That was in one of my quotes: ‘“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.”

Making men all one people means making all men believers.

The caveat is that God does want everyone to believe in Him, but God does not need everyone to believe in Him, because God has no needs. That is why if people choose to reject His Messengers it is no skin off His nose. God would like everyone to recognize His Messengers; otherwise, why would God send them? But God does not barter with humans so if they reject His Messengers He is not going to communicate some other way in order to garner their belief.

What evidence?

I am certain I just posted that in a previous post.

This is just fundamentalism by another name. Baha'u'llah said it; I believe it; that settles it!

I'm sorry, I am just never going to be able to revert back to that mentality anymore. I require evidence for my beliefs beyond someone's say-so.

Of course, I have heard this argument before, many, many times.

You can call it fundamentalism if you want to but it is not fundamentalism in the same sense as some sects of Christianity or Islam. However, the Baha’i Faith is a religion of tenets and laws and the basis upon which it rests is that what Baha’u’llah wrote was the Infallible Word of God, because Baha’u’llah was more than a human; He was a higher level of Creation. In that we differ from Jews and Muslims who believe that Moses and Muhammad were only men, Messengers of God who were fallible, but we are not like Christians who believe that Jesus was literally God in the flesh.

I have no problem with Baha’u’llah being infallible because I do not have a problem with authority. I have worked for the government for over 42 years and I have never had a run-in with a boss. I respect those who are in authority because they got to their positions and I am not on their level. Nevertheless, I am very independent and I do my own thing. If I do not agree with something Baha’u’llah wrote I am not afraid to speak up, but on some level I know I am wrong because I am just a fallible human being. But there really is nothing I disagree with that He wrote except that I question if God is All-Loving.

You can't understand why people would want to see and hear from God directly? To ask him questions? To learn the secrets of the universe? To know how and why he does what he does? Maybe you should ask a few of your fellow theists; I know plenty in my personal life who would love to have a chat with their deity.

No, I wouldn’t want to because I realize that God is too powerful to approach directly. Of course I believe that because of what Baha’u’llah wrote, but it makes complete sense to me. The idea is that Baha’u’llah is God’s Representative on earth so anything He wrote is as good as if God wrote it. If there are things He did not reveal, that is because we either did not need to know them or we could not understand them but there is just so much, and I have not even read everything he wrote. Only about 15% of His Tablets have been translated into English and even then I have not read all of them.

LOL so wait a minute. The writings of the former Messengers are too hard to understand, which is why we needed the more recent Messenger. But it's probably going to be too tough to understand the more recent Messenger's teachings ourselves, so we need "appointed Interpreters" to unpack them for us. The Messengers need Messengers!

No, that is not what I meant to convey. This is difficult to explain because the Baha’i Faith is so different from all the older religions. In brief, Baha’u’llah made a binding Covenant with His followers and wrote a will and testament in which he passed along authority to his eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha who was the Centre of His Covenant. Then Abdu’l-Baha wrote a will and testament and he conferred authority upon His grandson, Shoghi Effendi. So they have the authority to explain the Writings of Baha’u’llah. It is not that we need them explained because we can read them and understand them, but they provided us with additional books to read that explain them in different ways and they answered the questions that Baha’is had after Baha’u’llah had died. Since the Guardian Shoghi Effendi died in 1957 the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is now the head of the Baha’i Faith.

All the Baha’is are messengers for the Messenger in the sense that we try to explain the Baha’i Faith to people who are interested.

Come on, Trail. You seem like an insightful, intelligent woman. You can't seriously think an omnipotent, omniscient being arranged this mess. Or that it's the most effective way for him to get a message across.

I sure do believe that, because once the new setup was understood it made complete sense to me. A little knowledge can be dangerous as they say. Perhaps I did not have a problem with it because I carried no excess baggage from another religion.

Anyone can write words on a page. How do you demonstrate that those words on the page, penned by a human being, are actually the words of a deity?

Wow, you finally ask the most important question! The answer in brief is that we all have to demonstrate that to ourselves by doing a lot of research and reading the Writings, but once demonstrated it is obvious to us. The thing about me is that because I was never searching for God it did not matter to me if the religion came from God; I just knew that the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi rang true. I believed Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God but I did not really understand what that meant because I did not care about God. I did not believe in God like I do now until I read what Baha’u’llah wrote about God, about four years ago. I then knew Baha’u’llah was from God, and my life has never been the same since, because now, unlike before, I take this religion and God very seriously. Most of my life I was just a Baha’i, I knew it was true, but I did not understand the implications until I really read and understood what Baha’u’llah wrote about God in Gleanings and The Kitab-i-Iqan.

That all rests on the assumption that your religion is the true one, which you have yet to demonstrate.

You are absolutely right; it does all rest upon that.

Thus far the only reason you've presented is that you believe that human beings are the most effective way for an omnipotent being to get a message to us that we'll know is his. I think I've shown through multiple posts why that's hooey.

If you really think about it, human beings (who also have a divine nature) are the only means for God to get a message to humans, since God cannot show up Himself. They can act as mediators between an ineffable God and humans because they have the nature of God and a human nature.

The fly in the ointment as you so aptly pointed out is knowing that the message is coming from God, and I understand that is no walk in the park since I have been conversing with atheists on forums about this for over five years. I know that just because it is obvious to me it will not be obvious to others, but since it is also obvious to other Baha’is that means there is a way to accomplish it, potentially. Obviously not everyone will, but it requires an effort.

If you're familiar with psychology, you should know that's a really easy way to fall into self-deception. When messages between you and your deity can't be independently confirmed, how do you know they're not just the product of your own mind?

I was waiting for that and I am on the same page as you are. I do not think we can know if God has communicated something to our minds, not like a Messenger can know, and we can easily delude ourselves if we think we know. At most I would only say I believe that God might have assisted me in some way.

No, we cannot have a conversation with God where God talks back because God chose for it to be that way, remember? We agreed on this already.

If God could create Moses in such a way that he could talk to him, he could have created all of us that way. He chose not to.

I am glad you are finally coming to realize this and maybe you can come to understand that it is really a good thing for us to have a go-between, not a bad thing. I like having my attorney in between me and a tenant, so I do not have to deal with him directly.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's one reason I enjoy RF - lots of different perspectives that encourage me to see things in ways I hadn't considered. And we - mostly - get along.

Yes, RF is very different from all the other forums I had been posting on...
If only I had known about it sooner.

I'm headed to bed, sorry I couldn't get to everything you posted yet, it'll have to wait. Busy week this week so my time on RF may be limited. Good night!

No hurry, because I have trouble keeping up as it is.
Tomorrow is going to be a difficult day, lots going on in the real world.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. What criteria do you use to determine whether what they wrote is correct or not? Do you just believe or do you use logic, reason, evidence, do you look for contradictions or inconsistencies, do you compare their writings to other sources etc?

All Baha'is go about our investigations in our own individual ways. What I can tell you is that we are enjoined by Baha'u'llah to look at everything critically and us our reason to determine if it is true or not. Some of what constitutes evidence for me might not be as important to another Baha'i. The general guidelines for independent investigation of truth are as follows:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

“The principles of the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart—so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization in Persia, in Europe, and in the whole world.” Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 22

 

[Skreeper]

Another folly of atheism is the intense hostility that some of them have, toward theism, and especially 'Christians!!' .....

Not content with their own beliefs, they feel compelled to ridicule, mock, and belittle other's beliefs. They are aggressive, militant, and intolerant of diversity of opinion, and present demeaning caricatures of the beliefs of theists.

Why is that?

Insecurity?
Religious bigotry?
Confirmation Bias?
Anger or resentment toward God, so take it out on other Believers?

..probably lots of reasons

Actually for me it's pretty simple:

I am hostile towards religious fundamentalism, especially Christian fundamentalism, because I consider it a threat to the well-being and future of humans, society, and myself.

 

[ArtieE]

The thing about me is that because I was never searching for God it did not matter to me if the religion came from God; I just knew that the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi rang true.

That is probably the difference between a believer and a logical and rational person. A logical and rational person doesn't care if something "rang true". That is completely irrelevant. What matters is if it's logical, rational, makes sense, has a lot of evidence backing it up, can be independently and objectively corroborated, is falsifiable, isn't self-contradictory, contains verifiable information, comes from sources that are independently and objectively confirmed to be reliable, that the information is confirmed to be original and not just copied from suspect sources etc etc. But it is obviously much easier to play sheep and have a shepherd spoonfeed you all the information and just swallow it all hook, line and sinker. That is just not the rational way.

 

[ArtieE]

All Baha'is go about our investigations in our own individual ways. What I can tell you is that we are enjoined by Baha'u'llah to look at everything critically and us our reason to determine if it is true or not. Some of what constitutes evidence for me might not be as important to another Baha'i. The general guidelines for independent investigation of truth are as follows:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

OK. So what have you done to independently investigate the truth? You do that by using logic, reason, by finding independent and objective evidence backing it up, by independently and objectively corroborating the information, seeing if the information is falsifiable, isn't self-contradictory, checking that the information also is the same as information that comes from other sources that are independently and objectively confirmed to be reliable etc etc. So exactly what kind of independent investigation have you done to confirm that this Baha'u'llah is telling the truth? The first contradiction I can see is that you say that you believe what they write but they write that you're not supposed to believe in dogmas and doctrines but investigate for yourself. How do you combine those?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is probably the difference between a believer and a logical and rational person. A logical and rational person doesn't care if something "rang true". That is completely irrelevant. What matters is if it's logical, rational, makes sense, has a lot of evidence backing it up, can be independently and objectively corroborated, is falsifiable, isn't self-contradictory, contains verifiable information, comes from sources that are independently and objectively confirmed to be reliable, that the information is confirmed to be original and not just copied from suspect sources etc etc. But it is obviously much easier to play sheep and have a shepherd spoonfeed you all the information and just swallow it all hook, line and sinker. That is just not the rational way.

I really do not appreciate atheists who lump all believers into a category and say they are not logical or rational, implying that atheists are. That is just not true. What I have seen in my many dealings with atheists is that they are neither rational nor logical in what they expect a God to be or do and they are constantly committing many fallacies such as the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, assuming all religions are the same, and assuming that just because most Messengers were false all Messengers are false. The number of logical fallacies are too numerous to even mention.

My religion rang true to me over 48 years ago when I first heard of it and at that time I read as many books as I could get my hands on and I read other books that had been written about it. That is how I investigated it. I did not need to cross check it with other religions to know it was the truth.

Now, many years later, I find that it is logical, rational, makes sense, has a lot of evidence backing it up,isn't self-contradictory, contains verifiable information, and the information is confirmed to be original and not just copied from suspect sources. That is more than I can say about any other major religion from the past that has nothing we can verify at all. We are supposed to believe that Jesus rose from the dead based upon some stories people wrote decades later. Stories are not verification of the stories and there is nothing outside of the Bible to verify those stories.