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The Folly of Atheism

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some people are afraid to face their mortality, and distract themselves with diversions and amusements.

Diversion and amusements such as religion? No thanks. I'm fine without it. I accept the likelihood that my consciousness ends forever with death. I leave religion to those unable to do the same.

Your hostile projection toward me, personally, just exposes your religious bigotry.

You're the bigot. Why else would you start a thread attacking all atheists? It's obviously because you are a willing vector for a bigoted religion, Christianity. Why else are you here? To sell Girl Scout cookies? Atheists need to understand what your churches are teaching you.

You believe whatever you want, cupcake

Cupcake? Does your religion do anything positive for you? I'm not seeing much character here, buttercup.

It's like living in the ocean and demanding "evidence" for the water.

What's wrong with that? If there is water, there will be evidence of it. Not so much for these gods.

I submit that it is 'folly', to categorically dismiss the entirety of human experience and consensus for millennia, for some new, pop notion of 'no God!', based mostly on Indoctrination, peer pressure, and a narrow view of evidence.

I submit that it is folly to cling to the past when we have better ideas today. Please enjoy the ancient ethics, metaphysics, epistemology that defines your worldview. I traded up.

The folly continues by pretending, 'we're so much smarter, now!', when all we have done is harness technology, and we are no closer to understanding the mysteries of life and the universe than we were thousands of years ago

We are smarter now. We're no longer decapitating goats to appease imagined gods, for example.

Your mysteries are not an issue. I readily accept that many questions will remain unanswerable throughout my life, perhaps forever

Some could argue we've forgotten more than we've ever known, regarding the deepest mysteries of the universe.

Don't allow yourself to be distracted by the irrelevant. And the ancients who didn't understand where the rain comes from have no deep insights to offer modern man.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
"Created" along with atoms, energy and spacetime, as intrinsic components of reality/the universe, at the moment of the Big Bang. "Created" without need or evidence of a creator.

The laws along with atoms, energy, and space time then gave rise to the knowing subject that cognises and studies these objects.

The story is good. :)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Care to rephrase that in comprehensible English?

Yes. I will try.

Some believe that the space-time, elements, energy and physical laws that were created after big-bang gave rise to the knowing subject. That subject then cognises and studies these objects.

People who believe so also claim to be more rational-logical than some others who do not blindly ascribe to the above mythic creation of the knowing subject.

If one is truly rational, one would question “Whence the I awareness”?

YMMV.
...

In short, I am skeptical of the narrative that logic and reason are born of inanimate objects and assume the role of the ‘knowing subject’.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Just for the fun of it.
The unmoved mover or God. If God is the source of everything, then there can't be any limits to God and he could be evil, because to say that God can't be evil, is a limit to God.
God could have chosen to create this universe as without souls, a Heaven and Hell.

Good point. And such a being? 100% eliminates free will-- because free will requires an indeterminate future.

If the future is known by an all-powerful being? Then it's determined in advance, and free will is a myth.

Only if god doesn't know how we choose, can free will be real. Or, naturally, if god isn't real in the first place.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You assume he's infallible as a dogma of your faith. I don't. You have yet to demonstrate he is, so once again I wait.
No, it is not from dogma, it is from scriptures. Dogma is man-made, scriptures are Divine-made. That cannot be demonstrated (proven) since scriptures cannot be proven to be from God.
No. Wrong. Yet again. I dont define it. Perfect communication is an objective standard that can be measured. It has nothing to do with what I want.
Oh, and how would it be measured, by how many people believe in God? Sorry, but you have no proof that if God communicated directly to everyone, everyone would believe in God, since it never happened, so you are up a creek without a paddle, unable to measure it. In other words it is just a personal opinion, a bald assertion, that if God communicated directly to everyone, everyone would believe in God.
And human nature was chosen by God. So he chose to create us in a way that is incompatible with direct communication with him.
You got that right, because God does not WANT humans communicating directly with Him. That is what YOU want, not what God wants. God is omnipotent so guess who gets what he wants?
Free will is a misnomer, as I've already addressed. Direct communication from God wouldn't impact our ability to make decisions based on that communication any more than direct communication from anyone else. Even the Bible confirms this.
You are right about free will, so just as I said above, not everyone would necessarily believe in God if God communicated directly to everyone.
No. Wrong. Again. It isn't crappy "to me," it is crappy objectively by the numbers.
What numbers, the small numbers of atheists?

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia
Yes, A faith. Not the same faith, in fact, mostly contradictory faiths. Meaning the vast majority of humanity has gotten the wrong message. This conclusion is unavoidable, no matter how you rationalize it.
The fact that there are many different faiths is just a red herring. Of course there are many different faiths, because they were revealed in different ages by different Messengers of God. But that is not a valid argument against Messengers of God as a method. If God spoke to everyone directly there would be 7.44 billion different “faiths.”

Moreover, in the future, there will be only one faith, the Faith of God. God is patient so He can wait.

God has it covered because he sent an “all-powerful and inspired Physician” Baha'u'llah. It might not look like it now, but the future will be a lot different. God has ordained that there will be one common faith for all people, so we know it has to happen. Given my age, I won’t see it in my lifetime, but you might see a big change during your lifetime.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92

No. Wrong. Again. Very obviously not.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore on this thread. We don't seem to be getting anywhere. Rather than rehashing the same stuff over and over, let's focus on your evidence for Bahaullah being a manifestation of God.
You are wrong in saying that Messengers of God have not been successful. The fact that most people believe in God (all but 7% of the world population) and that most of these people (84%) have a religion demonstrates Messengers were successful. Moreover, there is no way you can know that direct communication to everyone would be any more successful, since it never happened, so it is just a personal opinion.

You do not have to respond to this post unless you see something I said that is NEW you want to respond to.

I will try to get to that thread. As luck would have it, my incoming posts are slowing down and my other life situations are on hold for the time being because I cannot deal with any more stress for at least a week..

I will tell you a little secret now. On some other forums that are part of a group, I discussed “God directly communicating to everyone” with one atheist poster for about four years, so if you think we have been discussing this a long time, think again. :rolleyes: Finally, it came to an end, but during the process I learned all the rebuttals to his arguments, and I have them memorized. I even have most of them saved in Word documents. We have finally moved onto new frontiers; now he is talking about other things he thinks the omnipotent god would/should do if god exists. :D

I tried to invite this poster over to RF but he won’t come. I told him how many atheists there are here and some would agree with him, but he STILL would not come. :(

I once told him I spend more time with him that I spend with my husband so why don’t we get married? Of course I was joking but he took me seriously. :oops:

Since I came to RF, I have posted several threads as a result of something he and I were discussing, and I even have one on direct communication to everyone I posted about a year ago:

Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nope. But that hardly matters-- does it? Your god is quite fallible-- proof? If even one (1) atheist exists, then your god has utterly, completely, and totally failed to be Godly.

Ooops!
No Bob, because God does not care if atheists exist. God leaves that up to them to decide. IF God cared that there are atheists God would be sure there are no atheists because an omnipotent God can do anything.

Do you even understand that not ALL atheists WANT to believe in God? I know atheists who do not want to believe in God, so why would God make them into believers? That would not be a nice God forcing Himself on those atheists.

So you see Bob, this is how God works. He honors free will choices.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: Do you even understand that not ALL atheists WANT to believe in God?

Bob said: Belief? Belief has no value. Knowledge, on the other hand...
If you have knowledge, you have no need of belief.
You are deflecting from what I said. Believe or know, it is all the same thing...
Some atheists do not want to know if god exists because they do not care about god.
A real god worthy of the title? Has no need of faith-- and would never stoop so low.
Obviously you say that because you do not want to have to have faith...
You have that backwards.
It would be stooping if God proved He exists so you and those like you would not have to have faith.
It would be stooping to your level by kowtowing to your desires.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Nope, science can't do any of those things. But then, neither can mathematics or religion, for that matter. So what's your point?

What the scientific method - logic and reason - CAN do is figure out how the universe works better than any other method we've ever come across so far. And when it comes to fantastical claims like gods and farting pixies, it's BY FAR a better method for determining if they are true or not than whatever silly method you have chosen to use.

That nobody holds authority over reality. But that science is better, is not science.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Good point. And such a being? 100% eliminates free will-- because free will requires an indeterminate future.

If the future is known by an all-powerful being? Then it's determined in advance, and free will is a myth.

Only if god doesn't know how we choose, can free will be real. Or, naturally, if god isn't real in the first place.

Well, we don't have free will in a natural universe.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
We don't have control over nature but we have control over our own moral choices.
Otherwise, we would not be held accountable in courts of law.

Yes, we can.
A thief before a judge: You can't put me in prison, because I am not responsible, because I have no free will.
The judge: Neither have I, so you go to prison.

Free will was examined and found to be Ex Nihilo. It is an idea that only works if you believe in it, because it can't be explained for the everyday world we are all in. It comes out of nothing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Free will was examined and found to be Ex Nihilo. It is an idea that only works if you believe in it, because it can't be explained for the everyday world we are all in. It comes out of nothing.
What can't be explained is how anyone does anything with out willing it first.
How free our will is is another matter.

Thought, volition, and action, that is how humans function in the everyday world.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What can't be explained is how anyone does anything with out willing it first.
How free our will is is another matter.

Thought, volition, and action, that is how humans function in the everyday world.

Yes, but they don't have to be free as per free will. You are taking about subjectivity.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I don't.
You'd know that, if you read a few of my 18K posts, I don't buy into the image.
Then why did you bring it up? Why are you discussing in image of God that you don't even hold?
I do.
But that doesn't change the fact that I live in a place dominated by Christians. Violent, self-righteous, hypocritical Christians.
What humans AREN'T violent, self-righteous and hypocritical?
I am very careful about what I say around government employees because I know that justice means something different to WASP heterosexual people than it does to the rest of us. Nothing to do with God or anything, it's about religion and religionists.
Tom
I know this has nothing to do with God. That's why I don't understand why you brought it up. I was talking about God; the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is, not religious depictions and imaginings, and not humanity's propensity for ignorance, prejudice, and violence, none of which are God.

I may not like how a lot of people behave regarding money, but that doesn't make money any less a fact of my or anyone else's reality.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Why should God care if atheists exist if atheists don't care if God exists?
Answer that question.

I dunno: that fake "perfection" you keep going on about? A perfect god would care.

And would never stoop so low as to single out Special Favorite Super-People. Even a 2 year old has a superior sense of Fairness.

Heck-- every member of the Ape Family has an innate sense of Fair. So do many birds! Experiments with giving food show this extremely well.

But the god YOU describe? Is anything BUT.
 
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