The Folly of Atheism

[Valjean]

An immortal being cannot experience MORTAL suffering. Your MYTH makes a JOKE of actual, human suffering.

Promethius?

 

[Trailblazer]

What do theists want then if not facts?

Some of us want evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Promethius?

At least the Greeks instilled proper human traits into their demigods. They never tried to pretend they were perfect, or even all powerful.

Indeed-- an all-powerful Promethius would not have stood still for the torture in the first place. Nor would he have needed to be sneaking about helping humans.

 

[Left Coast]

I have no idea why it would matter to you if it makes a difference to God. Any God that NEEDED our belief would not be God; but that does not mean that God does not WANT our belief, God wants it because God knows it is in OUR best interest to believe in Him.

By "makes a difference" I mean want or need. I simply mean if God doesn't care whether I believe in him, then it's not high in my priority list either.

Not at your age you’re not afraid. I wasn’t afraid either when I was young, but now that death is a lot nearer on the horizon I take it more seriously.

It is not scare tactics, it is just the facts. In this material world there will always be things we can use to distract ourselves and make ourselves happy, if we want them, so who needs God? Been there done that, but then I got older and realized I was wasting my life away and time is short.

Lol no, not facts, claims. You have zero facts re: the afterlife. You have the claims of your religion, that's it.

I'm sorry if you spent your earlier years wasting away your life. I try not to live with regret because I realize now this is the only life I'm guaranteed. No threats of a negative afterlife are any more impactful on me than any other anymore.

You attribute a human quality to God, hiding, and that is anthropomorphizing. Just because God is not visible to us, that does not mean that God is deliberately hiding, like a criminal might hide in a dugout if he did not want to be found. Atheists are so funny.

No, what you're doing is euphemising how God behaves. I'm stripping away the BS and calling it what it is. He's an omnipotent being who could show up right here right now if he chose, but instead he chooses to make his existence unfalsifiable. That's hiding. I'm just not sugar coating it because I don't have a preconceived idea like you that he's perfect and beyond reproach.

That is completely unrealistic. You live in some kind of fantasy world. Do you even THINK about how this would work, or do you just follow your feelings? How could every single human (7.44 billion of them) understand and write down the 15,000 tablets Baha’u’llah wrote down, and what would be the point?

For someone who claims to be the arbiter of logic here, you're not making much sense. Every single human could understand and write down whatever God wanted them to, because God is omnipotent, is he not? But that said, why would every human need to write it down individually? If God spoke simultaneously to all of us, and it was recorded, every one of us wouldn't need to write it down. And if we ever wanted clarification we could just go ask God about it.

NONE of this is about what God could do; all of it is about what humans can and cannot do. Ordinary humans cannot do what Baha’u’llah did, and that is why God chose Baha’u’llah to do it. The same applies to Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. Do you think you are on the same level as Jesus Christ? Do you want to die on a cross too? Do you want to spend 40 years in prison and banishment and exile like Baha’u’llah? Why then should God talk to you?

So again, we circle back. This is completely contingent on God's choices. God chooses to only communicate with "extraordinary" humans who are on a certain "level" proven by their suffering. Totally unnecessary and selective.

Don’t pull that omnipotent card. God can do anything I WANT Him to do so He had better so it is really what you are saying, and apparently you do not even realize that. Why should an Almighty God do what YOU want Him to do?

I'm not going to explain this any more because I've already done it multiple times now. God doesn't have to do anything I want him to. My point is that if God wanted to be a more effective communicator, he could be. He chooses not to be. That's his call.

This has nothing to do with evidence. One needs to look at the evidence before they become a Baha’i. We do not believe that Baha’u’llah was infallible until we are absolutely sure he was a Manifestation of God, after independently investigating the religion. This is called independent investigation of truth and it is the first principle inculcated by Baha’u’llah.

Again, I'll wait for a thread.

No, the dual nature of manifestations of God is just an important Baha’i belief, revealed by Baha’u’llah. If you cannot believe that, then game over. Why would anyone follow a man who was no more than a human being?

Exactly my point.

I do not know if you even realize how distorted that thinking is. Humans are not weak just because God is All-Powerful.

No, humans are weak because God created them that way. He chose it.

You are obsessed with God talking to you.

Your psychoanalysis is unnecessary and silly. I doubt I spend any more time thinking about God talking to me than you.

I do not think most people give a twit if God ever talks to them. They know God exists and talking to humans is not something God does, and they simply accept it, as adults do.

If you knew anything about God you would know what God does not talk to humans. Baha’u’llah explained that, that is how I know.

Trail, I know God doesn't talk to humans. I'm an atheist, boss. I don't need Bahaullah to explain that obvious fact to me.

LOL, you do not have any more cards in your deck except the omnipotent card. Being omnipotent does not mean God can become a man, but IF God became a man God would be a man, NOT GOD. What about that do you NOT understand? God cannot be fully God and fully human, that is a ridiculous Christian belief that was invented by men at Councils such as Nicaea. Jesus never claimed to be fully God and fully human.

You don't believe he's fully God and fully man, but you do believe he has a unique dual divine and human nature that allows God to talk to him. Again, maybe a topic for another thread?

Who do you think you are to tell God what He should have chosen? Do you even understand the problem with that? You are not All-Powerful, All-Knowing or All-Wise, so you cannot tell God what to do… well you can do it but it is ridiculous.

You are still stuck on this idea that I'm telling God what to do. I'm not. I'm telling you what God could do if he chose. But he doesn't. 100% his call.

We cannot know that methodology, only the Messenger knows that methodology. Baha'u'llah explained in words how the revelation came to him, but that is not something we can understand because we did not experience it. We can either choose to believe it or we can reject it.

Personal experiences are unverifiable, so they don't make good evidence. So if we don't have good evidence for the methodology why would we believe it?

Why does it matter what God could have done? But the more important question is why should God do what YOU think He should do? There is a reason God did what he did that makes logical sense but you will never know what it is because you are fixated on getting what you want.

Asked and answered. You can tell me there's a logical reason for all this, but you haven't given me one yet.

Baha’u’llah DID explain how he got the revelation from God, in several passages, but obviously He cannot prove He got a revelation from God. How could He prove that?

Exactly my point. He couldn't. So why believe him?

There does have to be a go-between because that is how God set it up. God chose that arrangement because God is in charge of communication to humans. There is nothing you can do about it because you are not God.

Yes, I know. That's what I said to you from the beginning. This is entirely God's choice.

Any logical person would realize that an All-Knowing and All-Wise God knows the BEST WAY to communicate to humans, but when emotions take over logic goes right out the door.

Any logical person would know that simply declaring a deity all knowing and all wise doesn't make him so. But when emotions take over and fundamentalism rules the day, logic goes right out the door.



We seem to be rehashing the same points over and over, so unless there's something new you have to say, I think we've both made our points here. I'll wait for a thread demonstrating that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.[/quote][/Quote]

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

By "makes a difference" I mean want or need. I simply mean if God doesn't care whether I believe in him, then it's not high in my priority list either.



Lol no, not facts, claims. You have zero facts re: the afterlife. You have the claims of your religion, that's it.

I'm sorry if you spent your earlier years wasting away your life. I try not to live with regret because I realize now this is the only life I'm guaranteed. No threats of a negative afterlife are any more impactful on me than any other anymore.



No, what you're doing is euphemising how God behaves. I'm stripping away the BS and calling it what it is. He's an omnipotent being who could show up right here right now if he chose, but instead he chooses to make his existence unfalsifiable. That's hiding. I'm just not sugar coating it because I don't have a preconceived idea like you that he's perfect and beyond reproach.



For someone who claims to be the arbiter of logic here, you're not making much sense. Every single human could understand and write down whatever God wanted them to, because God is omnipotent, is he not? But that said, why would every human need to write it down individually? If God spoke simultaneously to all of us, and it was recorded, every one of us wouldn't need to write it down. And if we ever wanted clarification we could just go ask God about it.



So again, we circle back. This is completely contingent on God's choices. God chooses to only communicate with "extraordinary" humans who are on a certain "level" proven by their suffering. Totally unnecessary and selective.



I'm not going to explain this any more because I've already done it multiple times now. God doesn't have to do anything I want him to. My point is that if God wanted to be a more effective communicator, he could be. He chooses not to be. That's his call.



Again, I'll wait for a thread.



Exactly my point.



No, humans are weak because God created them that way. He chose it.



Your psychoanalysis is unnecessary and silly. I doubt I spend any more time thinking about God talking to me than you.



Trail, I know God doesn't talk to humans. I'm an atheist, boss. I don't need Bahaullah to explain that obvious fact to me.



You don't believe he's fully God and fully man, but you do believe he has a unique dual divine and human nature that allows God to talk to him. Again, maybe a topic for another thread?



You are still stuck on this idea that I'm telling God what to do. I'm not. I'm telling you what God could do if he chose. But he doesn't. 100% his call.



Personal experiences are unverifiable, so they don't make good evidence. So if we don't have good evidence for the methodology why would we believe it?



Asked and answered. You can tell me there's a logical reason for all this, but you haven't given me one yet.



Exactly my point. He couldn't. So why believe him?



Yes, I know. That's what I said to you from the beginning. This is entirely God's choice.



Any logical person would know that simply declaring a deity all knowing and all wise doesn't make him so. But when emotions take over and fundamentalism rules the day, logic goes right out the door.



We seem to be rehashing the same points over and over, so unless there's something new you have to say, I think we've both made our points here. I'll wait for a thread demonstrating that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.

[/Quote][/QUOTE]

The above is an example of Saintly Patience, and deserves some kind of award.

I'm thinking a box of Keebler Elves baked goods. You know about Keebler Elves, right? They are close cousins to the Kepler Elves, who in a mild baking accident, accidentally created the Big Bang -- only they call it the Big Bake.

 

[Left Coast]

The above is an example of Saintly Patience, and deserves some kind of award.

I'm thinking a box of Keebler Elves baked goods. You know about Keebler Elves, right? They are close cousins to the Kepler Elves, who in a mild baking accident, accidentally created the Big Bang -- only they call it the Big Bake.

That's very sweet of you.....

I'm more of a sucker for non-dairy ice cream though.

 

[columbus]

No, humans are weak because God created them that way. He chose it.

To me, this is the true Problem of Evil.

Why does omnimax God keep creating us in the image of the clever killer apes, with opposable thumbs, that we evolved from? He could make us smarter and less instinctively inclined towards theft, impulsive sex, and murder if that's what He wanted.
Tom

 

[PureX]

Some of us want evidence.

It's like living in the ocean and demanding "evidence" for the water.

 

[Valjean]

It's like living in the ocean and demanding "evidence" for the water.

You don't understand how to evaluate or analyze evidence.

 

[Milton Platt]

I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism.

And, since there is a disproportionately high number of vocal, proactive atheists here, a light hearted look at atheism should be welcome relief from the seriousness and intensity that some display.

A false dilemma
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option. (from wiki)

The dilemma presented is usually like this:

'If you cannot prove God's existence, then He does not exist!'

But, there are other possibilities, not just the 'either/or' of this dilemma.

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence.
2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering.
3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled.
4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality.
5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist.

We do not have enough evidence, individually, to categorically declare one of these possibilities as 'truth!', and dismiss all others. Therefore, this argument is fallacious, based on a false dilemma.

Actually, it would be more correct to assert that since you cannot prove god's existence, it is logical to assume he/she/it does not exist. Which is what most atheists assert.
Items 1 through 5 aren't even in play until you know the supposed god exists.

 

[Revoltingest]

Community. Reassurance. purpose. cosmic significance.

Also money, great food, & software which behaves itself.

 

[PureX]

You don't understand how to evaluate or analyze evidence.

And you don't understand that "evidence" is irrelevant to the question at hand. The concept of "God" is beyond the confines of "evidence". Either everything is evidence, or nothing is evidence, and either way will look exactly the same to us. Because we cannot experience/perceive the existence of "God" from outside it. There is no mechanism of comparison.

 

[Trailblazer]

By "makes a difference" I mean want or need. I simply mean if God doesn't care whether I believe in him, then it's not high in my priority list either.

But as I said, God does care.

Lol no, not facts, claims. You have zero facts re: the afterlife. You have the claims of your religion, that's it.

I'm sorry if you spent your earlier years wasting away your life. I try not to live with regret because I realize now this is the only life I'm guaranteed. No threats of a negative afterlife are any more impactful on me than any other anymore.

That is not true about my religion. I do not just have claims, I have evidence, but I do not want to belabor that point. I get so tired of repeating it to atheists.

As for the afterlife, there is evidence for that too, but there is no proof. How could anyone prove a spiritual world exists from a material world? It is impossible. But proof is not what makes reality exist. Reality simply exists.

I did not completely waste my time in my younger years and I do not have any regrets. I learned a lot and did a lot of inner healing work, and I needed to do that in order to be where I am at now.

This lie is guaranteed as long as you are alive but any of us could die at any moment and then it will be too late to change our minds because we will BE whoever we became in this life.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

No, what you're doing is euphemising how God behaves. I'm stripping away the BS and calling it what it is. He's an omnipotent being who could show up right here right now if he chose, but instead he chooses to make his existence unfalsifiable. That's hiding. I'm just not sugar coating it because I don't have a preconceived idea like you that he's perfect and beyond reproach.

Call it whatever you want to call it. It is a moot point if God could show up right here right now because God only does what He chooses to do.

God is not hiding because He is perfectly visible in Baha’u’llah, as He was in Jesus and the other Divine Messengers.

For someone who claims to be the arbiter of logic here, you're not making much sense. Every single human could understand and write down whatever God wanted them to, because God is omnipotent, is he not?

Because God is omnipotent, because God is omnipotent, because God is omnipotent, because God is omnipotent... That is all atheists ever say.

What does God being omnipotent have to do with humans who are NOT omnipotent? No, every human being could not understand and write down what Baha’u’llah understood and wrote down, because they do not have a divine mind, let alone enough intelligence to understand what He wrote.

But that said, why would every human need to write it down individually? If God spoke simultaneously to all of us, and it was recorded, every one of us wouldn't need to write it down. And if we ever wanted clarification we could just go ask God about it.

Give me a break. How would God speak simultaneously to everyone what Baha’u’llah wrote? He wrote thousands and thousands of Tablets over a period of 40 years. Even if this was possible, why would it be necessary, just because you cannot trust a Messenger of God?

Go ask God about it? You act as if God is a human being. No, you could never go ask God about it. God is above and beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived and He is outside the reach of anyone. God does not even communicate to Messengers directly, He communicates through the Holy Spirit.

We might feel God's presence in the next world, IF we were close to God in this world, I do not know how that will go.

So again, we circle back. This is completely contingent on God's choices. God chooses to only communicate with "extraordinary" humans who are on a certain "level" proven by their suffering. Totally unnecessary and selective.

You have no idea what is necessary because you know NOTHING about God. Case closed.

I'm not going to explain this any more because I've already done it multiple times now. God doesn't have to do anything I want him to. My point is that if God wanted to be a more effective communicator, he could be. He chooses not to be. That's his call.

If God wanted to garner 100% belief He could. Obviously He doesn’t.

No, humans are weak because God created them that way. He chose it.

Humans are not weak. Humans are made in the image ans likeness of God. Humans have a rational mind (soul) and free will.

You don't believe he's fully God and fully man, but you do believe he has a unique dual divine and human nature that allows God to talk to him. Again, maybe a topic for another thread?

Yes, that is what I believe about Jesus, that He had a dual nature.

You are still stuck on this idea that I'm telling God what to do. I'm not. I'm telling you what God could do if he chose. But he doesn't. 100% his call.

And since it is 100% His call, and God doesn’t choose to do it, is there any point discussing it further?

Personal experiences are unverifiable, so they don't make good evidence. So if we don't have good evidence for the methodology why would we believe it?

We would only believe He got a Revelation form God if we already looked at all the evidence and came to that conclusion.

Asked and answered. You can tell me there's a logical reason for all this, but you haven't given me one yet.

I did give you logical reasons why God does not communicate with ordinary humans. We do not have a divine mind so we could never understand God communication.God could prove to everyone that He exists in some other way, but God does not do that because God does not want to take away our choice to believe or not believe. By forcing us to search for Him, what we find and believe will be our choice.

Exactly my point. He couldn't. So why believe him?

If it is proof you need then you will never believe in God or Baha’u’llah. It’s your choice. Evidence is as good as it gets. If the evidence is good enough for us it becomes proof to us as individuals.

Any logical person would know that simply declaring a deity all knowing and all wise doesn't make him so. But when emotions take over and fundamentalism rules the day, logic goes right out the door.

I never said declaring it makes it so. Nobody can prove it is so, and that is why it is called a belief.

We seem to be rehashing the same points over and over, so unless there's something new you have to say, I think we've both made our points here. I'll wait for a thread demonstrating that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.

Okay, I will try to get to that over the weekend, barring any more unforeseen circumstances.

 

[atanu]

If God doesn't need a cause, why to the laws of physics?
These laws are intrinsic to the universe, they were "created" with the expansion. How it all happened is currently unknown.

Laws of physics are intrinsic and also created?

 

[atanu]

And THAT'S how delusional religion works!

You get presented with two EQUALLY unverifiable claims, yet somehow you've concluded that ONE of them is simple and logical, but the OTHER is fantastical and silly. One of us was brainwashed into believing ridiculous ideas as a child while the other was raised to use logic and reason and to not accept anything as true without verifiable evidence.

At least in MY example we learn HOW the universe was made. In YOUR example it remains an even bigger mystery.

Hmm. Logic and reason?

Logic and reason born of inanimate objects and suddenly assuming the role of the ‘knowing subject’?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And THAT'S how delusional religion works!

You get presented with two EQUALLY unverifiable claims, yet somehow you've concluded that ONE of them is simple and logical, but the OTHER is fantastical and silly. One of us was brainwashed into believing ridiculous ideas as a child while the other was raised to use logic and reason and to not accept anything as true without verifiable evidence.

At least in MY example we learn HOW the universe was made. In YOUR example it remains an even bigger mystery.

Yet science can't do all of this:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

There is a limit to reason, logic and evidence.
It is simple to test, you need 3 humans.
One: Is the a limit to reason, logic and evidence?
Two: No!
Three: Yes!

Now if reason, logic and evidence is as "strong" as some people treat it, #3 wouldn't be possible, yet it is.
I can describe, explain and inform you of how there is a limit to reason, logic and evidence, but it is in sense pointless, because you can subjectively deny that there is a limit. That you can deny it, is a part of the limit to reason, logic and evidence, but because you can get away with denying the limit by using it, it is not certain that you will notice it.

 

[Valjean]

Laws of physics are intrinsic and also created?

"Created" along with atoms, energy and spacetime, as intrinsic components of reality/the universe, at the moment of the Big Bang. "Created" without need or evidence of a creator.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

"Created" along with atoms, energy and spacetime, as intrinsic components of reality/the universe, at the moment of the Big Bang. "Created" without need or evidence of a creator.

But that is unknown as per evidence confirmed by observation.
What Is the Big Bang? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids
If the Big Bang started as a singularity, then we can't observe it, because an observation requires an observer and that which is observed, but then it is not a singularity.
It is the "hex" of the word theory. The theory/law of gravity is based on evidence and is standard science. The theory of the Big Bang is not standard science. It is theoretical physics and amounts to an untestable hypothesis. In everyday words as per the link it is an idea. You can believe in it, but you have no evidence for it. It makes sense in a brain given certain conceptual assumptions, but it is nothing but thinking in those brains, who believe in it.
We can go as many round as you like, but it ends here. The Big Bang can't be observed and thus it can't be tested. It is an idea, that makes sense in some sense, but it has no evidence. You believe in something without evidence. You can do that and I believe in God without evidence and I can do that.
All the words I have ever come across regarding this end here: The Big Bang makes subjectively sense if you accept certain assumptions as facts. Just like a creator God.

 

[usfan]

There is inferred evidence for the existence of the supernatural, and a First Cause:

• Human angst
• Felt Presence
• Universal Morality.. perception of 'good & evil'
• Intelligence
• Human consensus
• Foxhole Atheists
• The Universe
• Probability
• Hysterical Hostility
• Presumption of Mass Delusion

These things are not empirical, but they have been part of the human experience since we have recorded our thoughts.

I submit that it is 'folly', to categorically dismiss the entirety of human experience and consensus for millennia, for some new, pop notion of 'no God!', based mostly on Indoctrination, peer pressure, and a narrow view of evidence.

The folly continues by pretending, 'we're so much smarter, now!', when all we have done is harness technology, and we are no closer to understanding the mysteries of life and the universe than we were thousands of years ago. Some could argue we've forgotten more than we've ever known, regarding the deepest mysteries of the universe. Some facts of physics and engineering may have made existence easier, but it has not brought us any closer to our roots and the Big Questions of existence.

It is the presumption of wisdom, that cannot be quantified by natural facts, that exposes the folly.

 

[JJ50]

There is inferred evidence for the existence of the supernatural, and a First Cause:

• Human angst
• Felt Presence
• Universal Morality.. perception of 'good & evil'
• Intelligence
• Human consensus
• Foxhole Atheists
• The Universe
• Probability
• Hysterical Hostility
• Presumption of Mass Delusion

These things are not empirical, but they have been part of the human experience since we have recorded our thoughts.

I submit that it is 'folly', to categorically dismiss the entirety of human experience and consensus for millennia, for some new, pop notion of 'no God!', based mostly on Indoctrination, peer pressure, and a narrow view of evidence.

The folly continues by pretending, 'we're so much smarter, now!', when all we have done is harness technology, and we are no closer to understanding the mysteries of life and the universe than we were thousands of years ago. Some could argue we've forgotten more than we've ever known, regarding the deepest mysteries of the universe. Some facts of physics and engineering may have made existence easier, but it has not brought us any closer to our roots and the Big Questions of existence.

It is the presumption of wisdom, that cannot be quantified by natural facts, that exposes the folly.