The Folly of Atheism

[QuestioningMind]

God isn't a fantastical idea; but a simple and logical one.

Magical pixies are fantastical and silly.

Whether God is silly - well, you'll be able to discuss that when you meet Him.

I'm a Catholic DESPITE a Catholic upbringing, not because of it.

As your parents and community brought you up to sneer at God, you are doing so.

And THAT'S how delusional religion works!

You get presented with two EQUALLY unverifiable claims, yet somehow you've concluded that ONE of them is simple and logical, but the OTHER is fantastical and silly. One of us was brainwashed into believing ridiculous ideas as a child while the other was raised to use logic and reason and to not accept anything as true without verifiable evidence.

At least in MY example we learn HOW the universe was made. In YOUR example it remains an even bigger mystery.

 

[Left Coast]

1) You are blissfully, or perhaps wilfully, ignorant of your own projecting onto others.

Take the plank out of your own eye. Your fundamentalism is plain to see.

2) No, the Apostles couldn't have been "honestly mistaken" about Jesus' physical resurrection.

Why not?

3) The story of Abraham and Sara foreshadows - by God's providence and design - the story of Zechariah and Elizabeth.

The author of Luke was clearly aware of the Genesis story and wrote the account in Luke 1 to match. That's not history, it's literature.

4) Luke's Gospel is "literature, myth" ? Well, IYO.

In the opinion of actual Biblical scholars, including many Christian's - those that don't work at seminaries or Bible colleges that forbid them from ever teaching or publishing anything contrary to the theology of the school.

In the opinion of the world's Christians, it's factual history. You have no grounds for saying otherwise, other than your wish to believe otherwise.

Baseless nonsense. If you want to claim Luke is history, you'll need to demonstrate it. It has all the literary markers of a mythological contrived narrative for religious instruction and proselytism, not history.

But you really do want to keep working on behalf of Islam !

You may keep claiming this if it makes you feel better. I can walk and chew gum, personally.

 

[ArtieE]

Catholicus: You said "God isn't a fantastical idea; but a simple and logical one. Magical pixies are fantastical and silly." I just wonder where you draw the line. I'll give three examples.
1. Thor creates thunder
2. Poseidon creates earthquakes
3. God creates a universe

To me these are equally silly because you just change the god and what he's supposed to have created it doesn't make the formula any less silly. What do you think?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Catholicus: You said "God isn't a fantastical idea; but a simple and logical one. Magical pixies are fantastical and silly." I just wonder where you draw the line. I'll give three examples.
1. Thor creates thunder
2. Poseidon creates earthquakes
3. God creates a universe

To me these are equally silly because you just change the god and what he's supposed to have created it doesn't make the formula any less silly. What do you think?

Yes, all equally silly. But Catholicus is trying for a win by claiming his god created a universe which must perforce contain those things created by Thor and Poseidon (and presumably all the other gods).

 

[Deeje]

None of us can know what the reality is so why create billions of different stories to tell each other instead of dealing with the tree in the forest which does make a noise when it falls?

Why can't people just hear the falling tree?

To hear a "falling tree", for the inquiring mind, is to ask who or what planted the tree?...why was it there?...why did it fall? What happens to the tree now?
Science has whole branches dedicated to answering these questions because they are about natural human curiosity...adding a religious context just makes it more interesting and a lot more satisfying to many spiritually minded people. Often it is a matter of "who" you believe, rather than "what" you believe...so, it becomes a matter of who is more convincing. What is it that draws you to their ideas? That in itself says a lot about a person.....more importantly it tells the Creator all about us as individuals and what it is that we seek in this life.

If there is a God who created our reality, then don't you think he would have provided some information about how to live the life he gave us? All we need to know is in one book.....the Bible....looking outside of it just creates confusion.....misinterpreting it creates even more. This is why so many feel lost.

But you see, what looks out of control, is really under control.....this mess we call life, all means something and is going somewhere.....the Bible is the only reliable book that gives us all the answers about it, IMO. We just have to dig for them.

 

[siti]

The number of logical fallacies are too numerous to even mention.

There must be a name for the fallacy of claiming a "number" that is "too numerous to mention".

 

[Left Coast]

God wants you to know, but God is leaving it up to you to accept His terms or not accept them.
It won’t make any difference to God beause God does not need your belief.

His terms are silly and irrational, so no thanks. If it makes no difference to God, it makes no difference to me.

In this life we can all fool ourselves that we do not need God because there is always something else we can reach out for in a material world. It is after we die that the reality sets in.

A simple scare tactic no different than any other religion's. Pascal's Wager works just as well on you as anyone else, as the Christians you've interacted with in past forums have readily explained to you. I'm not afraid of your version of the afterlife any more than you're afraid of theirs.

God won’t be knocking on your door unless you open it first.

The door is open. He's hiding. All he needs to do is come say hi.

The caveat is that God wants everyone to believe in His Manifestation, who is Him. Anyone can believe that God exists, but it is really pointless unless we have knowledge of God and know what God expects of us.

"Manifestations" are just humans claiming to speak for God. Again, no more convincing when Baha'u'llah does it than when Joseph Smith does it. Or any other alleged messenger you don't accept.

God is not going to whisper that in the ears of 7.44 billion people. Using a Messenger is far more efficient and it is recorded on paper for everyone to refer to over time.

Are you kidding? Your lack of creativity is a little disappointing. You don't think it would be convincing if God spoke from the heavens, the exact same message at the exact same time, for everyone to hear simultaneously, and even be recorded to refer back to and analyze? We're talking about an omnipotent deity here. He can literally do anything, no matter how implausible. Instead he chooses the method of every man-made religion. Sorry, not convincing.

And that would mean WHAT? It means that there are a lot of atheists like you, but there are a lot more believers like me, IF you want to make this into a numbers game.

We already played the numbers game. You lost. By a landslide.

There is nothing wrong with fundamentalism. If what one is following is the teachings and laws of God, it is as good as gold. Some people just don’t like it because they do not want to give up what they want, but true freedom is to do what God enjoins us to do, not what we want to do.

The problem with fundamentalism is it short-circuits critical thinking and the demand for evidence. It convinces people to believe things simply because they come from an allegedly infallible source, even though there is no actual evidence to support them.

Yes, we are all human, but manifestations of God have a dual nature, both human and divine. When they speak as the Voice of God they speak with the authority of God.

So they tell you. Again, fundamentalism.

In case you are unaware of it, many millennial are becoming Baha’is and they are the ones who are carrying the load and teaching the Faith; and no, most of the Baha’i youth are not Baha’is because their parents were.

I would wager that millennials comprise the majority of all new converts to religions/churches in general, because they're young adults - exactly the age when many people make those shifts. Gen Xers are too old generally to make much of a worldview shift. Boomers even more so.

God does not have a choice as to whether He is too powerful. That is just God’s nature.

LOL. God chose to create us so weak we can't directly talk to him. Again, you already agreed to this. 100% his choice.

I am going to break something to you, friend. NO other religion in religious history ever had an arrangement like the Baha’i Faith with a Covenant written by the Prophet Founder who passed along the succession of authority and left the religion which a chief governing body such as the Universal House of Justice (UHJ). The Pope does not count because he was not appointed or envisioned by Jesus.

Then you need to get our more boss, because that's exactly what the Catholic Church thinks.

Again, the minutia are not relevant. The analogous pattern is. Your religion is not that different.

Correction

: God cannot show up and do what a man can do because God is not a man. God cannot become a man because then God would no longer be God, He would be a man. This is logic 101 stuff.

Then he is not omnipotent. This is logic 101 stuff, but you don't seem to get it.

And once again, you already agreed God chose this arrangement.

God could manifest His Eternal Essence on earth, but what good would it do? Here is what it would do, and it would not be good:

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

This was the original point I responded to from the beginning. This is a contrived problem that God could avoid if he chose differently.

We cannot know that methodology, only the Messenger knows that methodology. Baha'u'llah explained in words how the revelation came to him, but that is not something we can understand because we did not experience it. We can either choose to believe it or we can reject it.

So God can directly communicate! He could have chosen to make us all like messengers, able to talk to him, but he chose not to.

If people claim to talk to God but they can't demonstrate that message to you or tell you how they got that message in a way that's comprehensible, that's a giant red flag that they're probably not a reliable source of information.

That was just an analogy that demonstrates the idea of having a go-between in order not to have to deal with someone directly. You think you want to deal with God directly because you know nothing about the nature of God. If you knew anything about the nature of God then you would understand why there has to be a go-between.

There doesn't have to be a go-between, for the last time. God chose to create an arrangement where we'd need one.

 

[Left Coast]

That is true, God is completely unfalsifiable, and there's no way to tell his existence apart from his non-existence, but that does not make theism patently illogical because there are reasons to believe God exists, even though that can never be proven.

What are they?

The fact that that method (God choosing to allow us to gain access) wouldn't exist in a godless universe is a red herring, since it could also exist in a universe where God exists.

I changed would to wouldn't, since I assume that's what you mean. If there is no way to tell God's existence apart from his non-existence, we have no rational warrant to believe in him.

No, wrong on two counts. God is communicating in a way that has garnered the belief of most people in the world, since only about 7% of the world population is positive atheists or positive agnostics.

No, he hasn't. He's garnered the belief of only a tiny fraction of a percent.

Secondly, the blame for not recognizing the Messengers God sends lies squarely on the humans who do not recognize them because we all have free will. God cannot be to blame for anything because God cannot make mistakes since God is Infallible.

More fundamentalism. You are reasoning backwards. You have a preconceived belief thar God makes no mistakes, thus when evaluating he actions you assume he cannot be wrong. This is fallacious.

That is exactly what you are trying to do, call the shots for God. It is amazing that you cannot understand that.

What's amazing is that you can't comprehend the incredibly basic point I'm making. God, if he's there, may do what he likes. My point all along is that that if he wishes to communicate effectively, he objectively should choose another method. I'm not telling him to communicate effectively. I'm saying we know what is required for effective communication, and he's not cutting the mustard. If he doesn't want to cut the mustard, that's on him.

What you are really saying is that since God is omnipotent, God could communicate the way I want Him to, because the way God communicates is not good enough for me. It is crappy for you but it is not crappy for most people since most people accept Messengers of God.

Most people accept some Messenger, mostly to the exclusion of others. Almost none accept the Messenger you consider most relevant and necessary for this time period. Again, terribly ineffective communication.

So why should God change His Method just for you and a few other atheists who don’t like Messengers?

Only if he wants to communicate better. If he wants to continue being confusing and unconvincing, that's his call.

I know that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God from looking at the evidence I just posted above. Baha’u’llah Himself is part of the evidence, but that certainly is not all of the evidence. That is why it is not circular; because there are ways to confirm who He was aside from anything He said about being a Messenger.

I'll wait for a thread; I understand life is busy.

Nobody can demonstrate that but if God is not All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise,, then we can all take our toys and go home.

If no one can demonstrate it, we dont have rational warrant to believe it.

Who said that God is trying to be effective or convincing? This is where your problem lies; you assume God wants what you want, which is called projection in psychology. As I am sure I already said, if God had wanted everyone to believe in Him, God could have accomplished that.

Got it. God does not want to be convincing or communicate effectively. Cool, thank you.

That is a red herring. The salient point is that MOST people believe in God, not which God they believe in.

God doesn't care what people think about him? Just that they believe in some version of him, even if that version is wildly inaccurate? I mean you just said God doesn't want to be convincing or communicate effectively, so okay, whatever you say.

In the future, everyone will believe in the same God, and there will be only one religion, but that is a long way off as humans do not change that quickly.

It is not poor communication on the part of God or Baha’u’llah, it is poor choices on the part of the recipients of the communication, for the following reasons:1.

1. Most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if the Baha’i Faith is true or not.
2. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.
3. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”
4. The rest of the world’s population are agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.
5. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion do not believe that God communicates via Messengers.
6. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws.

God could choose to communicate in a way that convinces everyone. He doesn't. That's his choice.

That is another red herring, because God does say 1+1=3. However, if you think you are right and God is wrong, then you will think that God makes mistakes. That’s how that goes.

Huh? I assume you mean God does not say that.

How do you think you can find out if God made a mistake? You can look at what God revealed and disagree with it, but that does not mean you are right and god is wrong.

By looking at the evidence, of course. If God said something factually incorrect, sorry, he's incorrect. I realize you don't think he did. That's not the point. The point is we can objectively evaluate the so-called words of any deity and see if they match with reality.

You probably would not know that right away, although I know people who did. But most people need to understand something about Baha’u’llah, His life and history of His Cause, before they are willing to believe that He was a Representative of God on earth. After they come to accept that, then everything else falls into place.

Again I'll wait for a future thread. Gnight!

 

[Trailblazer]

There must be a name for the fallacy of claiming a "number" that is "too numerous to mention".

Really what I meant to say is that the number of times some atheists commit logical fallacies is a very large number.

 

[Nakosis]

I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism.

And, since there is a disproportionately high number of vocal, proactive atheists here, a light hearted look at atheism should be welcome relief from the seriousness and intensity that some display.

A false dilemma
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option. (from wiki)

The dilemma presented is usually like this:

'If you cannot prove God's existence, then He does not exist!'

This is my view,

I have no knowledge of a God , therefore I have no reason to believe in a God.

But, there are other possibilities, not just the 'either/or' of this dilemma.

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence.
2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering.
3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled.
4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality.
5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist.

All of which supports my view.

We do not have enough evidence, individually, to categorically declare one of these possibilities as 'truth!', and dismiss all others. Therefore, this argument is fallacious, based on a false dilemma.

Agreed... which supports my view.

Thank you for making my argument of why I should be an atheist for me.

 

[Skwim]

Really what I meant to say is that the number of times some atheists commit logical fallacies is a very large number.

Is it as large as the number of times some theists commit logical fallacies?

.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wasn't William Sears a Baha'i?Isn't Gary L. Matthews a Baha'i? You must have misunderstood. I'll read them, but I am not looking for Baha'i propaganda written by biased people, I'm looking for something written by somebody who actually objectively can confirm what these books say. You wouldn't expect me to believe in the Bible based on what believers in the Bible write about it do you?

Yes, both Sears and Matthews were/are Baha’is, but Sears did not become a Baha’i until he had researched all the Bible prophecies for seven years. Before that he was a Christian.

Pretty much everything is available on the internet. You need to do your own homework but you won’t find much if anything that is objective, although the sources will try to make it appear as if they are objective, cunning as they are.

People who write a lot about the Baha’i Faith are Baha’is or they become Baha’is. Most other people speak out against it, so most of what you will find is calumny.

There is no source that can objectively confirm what these books say, or should I say that nobody has bothered to write about them, not that I am aware of.

The Bible is not a fair comparison because it has been around 2000 years so there is now a lot of commentary from nonbelievers and scholars. Such is not the case with the Baha’i Faith, which is only 155 years young.

Please bear in mind that when a religion is “new” there is a lot of resistance to it and even attacks. This is more the case with the Baha’i Faith than the past religions because of the bold claims Baha’u’llah made.

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” Paris Talks, pp. 102-103​

 

[Trailblazer]

Precisely my point. If you had been familiar with any other sacred text and believed in it you would have quoted that text to me pretending to know what God wants or needs no matter which text, The Bible, The Quran, the Book of Mormon or whatever. This is the reason why we logical and rational people want believers to provide independent and objective and corroborating evidence that what you are quoting is the actual truth and factual! Otherwise your quotations are worth nothing!

According to Baha’u’llah, Baha’is are not responsible for doing homework for other people. Everyone has to do their own research. WE can answer questions posed to us and point you to the sources we consider accurate, but if you want to go looking for independent and objective and corroborating evidence, you will have to look for it yourself. But as I said, you probably won’t find much. The reason you won’t find it is not because the Baha’is are keeping anything secret or stopping people from writing about the Faith. There simply is not that much interest, except by those who try to attack us, ex-Baha’is or other religious believers, mainly Christian but also Muslims.

The definition of "to parrot" is To repeat verbatim what someone else has said or is saying." Please, just provide five things that can be independently and objectively confirmed by somebody not affiliated with Baha'i!

Sorry, I do not do other people’s homework. I have too much of my own.

I doubt you will find five things that can be independently and objectively confirmed by somebody not affiliated with Baha'i because as I said, there are not many people who are objective about it who cared to write about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it as large as the number of times some theists commit logical fallacies?.

In some cases, even larger.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good thing your god is also myth, then isn't it?

You only wish...

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? You actually live in North America and/or Europe, and claim to "never having been exposed to...."

Do you speak English? Then you were indoctrinated in "god"..

No, the word god was never mentioned...

Once, while walking on our neighborhood, my older sister got curious so she wandered into a Methodist church, but I did not want to go in. I was scared.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. My beliefs are usually based on evidence that often fails to rise to the level of proof. One's degree of belief should be commensurate with a competent assessment of the quantity and quality of the relevant evidence available, and be adjusted up or down as new evidence surfaces making the belief more or less likely to be correct. Any other level of belief, whether greater or less, is unjustified belief, or faith.

Verifiable evidence constitutes proof, but obviously there is no verifiable evidence for God.

There is a lot of evidence for Baha’u’llah, much of it verifiable, but there is no way anyone can prove that He got messages from God. How do you think that would be possible?

The best we can do is look at all the evidence that indicates that He was telling the truth, including His character, His life, what He did during His mission on earth, and His Writings.

There is also other corroborating evidence such as Bible prophecies that were fulfilled by His coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

His terms are silly and irrational, so no thanks. If it makes no difference to God, it makes no difference to me.

I have no idea why it would matter to you if it makes a difference to God. Any God that NEEDED our belief would not be God; but that does not mean that God does not WANT our belief, God wants it because God knows it is in OUR best interest to believe in Him.

A simple scare tactic no different than any other religion's. Pascal's Wager works just as well on you as anyone else, as the Christians you've interacted with in past forums have readily explained to you. I'm not afraid of your version of the afterlife any more than you're afraid of theirs.

Not at your age you’re not afraid. I wasn’t afraid either when I was young, but now that death is a lot nearer on the horizon I take it more seriously.

It is not scare tactics, it is just the facts. In this material world there will always be things we can use to distract ourselves and make ourselves happy, if we want them, so who needs God? Been there done that, but then I got older and realized I was wasting my life away and time is short.

The door is open. He's hiding. All he needs to do is come say hi.

Sorry, God does not provide curb service, not even for us dedicated believers. We all get the same treatment.

You attribute a human quality to God, hiding, and that is anthropomorphizing. Just because God is not visible to us, that does not mean that God is deliberately hiding, like a criminal might hide in a dugout if he did not want to be found. Atheists are so funny.

"Manifestations" are just humans claiming to speak for God. Again, no more convincing when Baha'u'llah does it than when Joseph Smith does it. Or any other alleged messenger you don't accept.

IF that is what they were, I would not pay any attention to them because humans trying to look smart and important abound in this world. But you are free to believe that because you have free will.

Are you kidding? Your lack of creativity is a little disappointing. You don't think it would be convincing if God spoke from the heavens, the exact same message at the exact same time, for everyone to hear simultaneously, and even be recorded to refer back to and analyze? We're talking about an omnipotent deity here. He can literally do anything, no matter how implausible. Instead he chooses the method of every man-made religion. Sorry, not convincing.

That is completely unrealistic. You live in some kind of fantasy world. Do you even THINK about how this would work, or do you just follow your feelings? How could every single human (7.44 billion of them) understand and write down the 15,000 tablets Baha’u’llah wrote down, and what would be the point?

NONE of this is about what God could do; all of it is about what humans can and cannot do. Ordinary humans cannot do what Baha’u’llah did, and that is why God chose Baha’u’llah to do it. The same applies to Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. Do you think you are on the same level as Jesus Christ? Do you want to die on a cross too? Do you want to spend 40 years in prison and banishment and exile like Baha’u’llah? Why then should God talk to you?

Don’t pull that omnipotent card. God can do anything I WANT Him to do so He had better so it is really what you are saying, and apparently you do not even realize that. Why should an Almighty God do what YOU want Him to do?

We already played the numbers game. You lost. By a landslide.

I did not lose anything.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The problem with fundamentalism is it short-circuits critical thinking and the demand for evidence. It convinces people to believe things simply because they come from an allegedly infallible source, even though there is no actual evidence to support them.

This has nothing to do with evidence. One needs to look at the evidence before they become a Baha’i. We do not believe that Baha’u’llah was infallible until we are absolutely sure he was a Manifestation of God, after independently investigating the religion. This is called independent investigation of truth and it is the first principle inculcated by Baha’u’llah.

So they tell you. Again, fundamentalism.

No, the dual nature of manifestations of God is just an important Baha’i belief, revealed by Baha’u’llah. If you cannot believe that, then game over. Why would anyone follow a man who was no more than a human being?

God does not have a choice as to whether He is too powerful. That is just God’s nature.

LOL. God chose to create us so weak we can't directly talk to him. Again, you already agreed to this. 100% his choice.

I do not know if you even realize how distorted that thinking is. Humans are not weak just because God is All-Powerful. You are obsessed with God talking to you. I do not think most people give a twit if God ever talks to them. They know God exists and talking to humans is not something God does, and they simply accept it, as adults do.

If you knew anything about God you would know what God does not talk to humans. Baha’u’llah explained that, that is how I know.

Then you need to get our more boss, because that's exactly what the Catholic Church thinks.

The Catholic Church can think whatever they want to think. They do not have a Covenant written by Jesus; in fact they do not have anything written by Jesus. The Pope and the Church is all man-made.

Again, the minutia are not relevant. The analogous pattern is. Your religion is not that different.

In some ways it is not different from the older religions but in some ways it is VERY different.

n he is not omnipotent. This is logic 101 stuff, but you don't seem to get it.

LOL, you do not have any more cards in your deck except the omnipotent card. Being omnipotent does not mean God can become a man, but IF God became a man God would be a man, NOT GOD. What about that do you NOT understand? God cannot be fully God and fully human, that is a ridiculous Christian belief that was invented by men at Councils such as Nicaea. Jesus never claimed to be fully God and fully human.

This was the original point I responded to from the beginning. This is a contrived problem that God could avoid if he chose differently.

Who do you think you are to tell God what He should have chosen? Do you even understand the problem with that? You are not All-Powerful, All-Knowing or All-Wise, so you cannot tell God what to do… well you can do it but it is ridiculous.

We cannot know that methodology, only the Messenger knows that methodology. Baha'u'llah explained in words how the revelation came to him, but that is not something we can understand because we did not experience it. We can either choose to believe it or we can reject it.

So God can directly communicate! He could have chosen to make us all like messengers, able to talk to him, but he chose not to.

Why does it matter what God could have done? But the more important question is why should God do what YOU think He should do? There is a reason God did what he did that makes logical sense but you will never know what it is because you are fixated on getting what you want.

If people claim to talk to God but they can't demonstrate that message to you or tell you how they got that message in a way that's comprehensible, that's a giant red flag that they're probably not a reliable source of information.

Baha’u’llah DID explain how he got the revelation from God, in several passages, but obviously He cannot prove He got a revelation from God. How could He prove that?

There doesn't have to be a go-between, for the last time. God chose to create an arrangement where we'd need one.

There does have to be a go-between because that is how God set it up. God chose that arrangement because God is in charge of communication to humans. There is nothing you can do about it because you are not God.

Any logical person would realize that an All-Knowing and All-Wise God knows the BEST WAY to communicate to humans, but when emotions take over logic goes right out the door.

 

[usfan]

This is my view,
I have no knowledge of a God , therefore I have no reason to believe in a God.
All of which supports my view.
Agreed... which supports my view.
Thank you for making my argument of why I should be an atheist for me.

..glad to have helped..

Good of you to point out that everyone has a 'View'. That 'view' is a product of multiple influences in our lives. Everybody believes something. Some may even guess right..

Everyone has to do 2 things, alone:
1. Their own believing
2. Their own dying

If you are satisfied with your perceptions about the universe, more power to you. I am happy to see people settled into logical conclusions about their existence. Some people are afraid to face their mortality, and distract themselves with diversions and amusements.

 

[usfan]

Then you aren't actually talking about atheists in general but just the subgroup called strong atheists. "Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none.

I'll leave the qualifiers and nuanced details to you.. just like 'theist' encompasses a great many specific opinions, 'atheist', does too. Addressing it as a general concept is not an insult.. it is a philosophical overview, not addressing anyone's specific beliefs, which are obviously quite varied.

I'm not telling you what you believe. I don't even care..

Your extremist brand of Christianity is highly unpleasant indeed. I have no problem with Christians who are moderates and non-Biblical literalists.

'MY' brand? ..and you 'know!' this, how? By the caricatures you have been indoctrinated to believe?

Your hostile projection toward me, personally, just exposes your religious bigotry.

/shakes head/

Now what happens is that you have a subjective belief, which you treat as objective and thus you believe I hold a "wrong" belief. I don't and nor do you. We believe differently at different times and spaces and in different respects. But because some humans can't catch that they subjectively believe something is objective, they arrive at a contradiction.

You're preaching to the choir, Reverend. Nobody is more tolerant and accepting of diversity of beliefs than me. I bristle at bigotry, and dogmatism, some, but i don't begrudge anyone their freedom of conscience. My roots run deep in the reformation and Enlightenment, and that is an essential element of human freedom.

You might get less abrasive condescension from other posters if you didn't post so much of it.
Especially since you clearly don't understand the broad range of world views that fall into the category of atheist. Heck, I have a sort of God image, but I still refer to myself as atheist because I consider religion to be fiction.
You get frustrating.
Tom

Thank you for the criticism.. i don't get enough of people calling me stupid and evil, here..

You're here to malign atheists. That's your agenda. That's why you started a thread demeaning atheism and atheists

You believe whatever you want, cupcake..

But i might include irrational paranoia in the list of 'folly' of some atheists. ..or maybe it is just the 'dishes it out but can't take it', syndrome.

And btw, to all the irrational 'haters!', of me, personally.. i don't take it seriously, because you don't know me, and just hate a projection.. a stereotypical caricature from constant anti-Christian propaganda. I am circumspective enough to realize this is a conditioned reflex, not something Real or substantive. You hate the caricature that has been constructed, and i am the representative for that outrage and hostility.

That is why i seldom return the intense hostility, but deflect with humor and ribbing. I hope to diffuse the trend toward anti-christian bigotry that has become so mainstream.