The Folly of Atheism

[Trailblazer]

How do you know that?

Because the evidence indicates it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I meant that free will would effectively be non-existent from the point of view of an omniscience, omnipotent creator because, except for any true randomness and any subsequent interventions, such a god would create all of history in the initial instant.

God could create all history in the initial instant but God does not create history. God allows humans to create history. It is as if God gave us a chessboard (the world) and we are the chess pieces moving around on the board.

God knows what all of history was and what it will be and that is because God is omniscient. But knowledge is not causation.

I was - you said there could never be such evidence. There obviously could be if an omnipotent god wanted there to be.

You are correct. There could be such evidence if God wanted there to be. Baha’u’llah even said that and then He explained why there is no such evidence.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people” means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists.

I think we've done this before - why should anybody go searching through the world's superstitions just in case one of them is true?

No, you should only look at the religion(s) that are most likely to be true.

Before I got married I did not look at all the men in town. Having dated other men, when my husband came along, it was easy for me to determine he was the one. Over 34 years later we are still married.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course not. I can't believe in Santa Claus even if I tried or wanted to.

I am not saying you are FREE to believe in anything you want to, I meant generally speaking you can make a choice as to what you will accept as true and not.

Of course God can be tested objectively. Any interaction with the material world leaves a trace. And if he doesn't interact with the material world he might as well not exist to begin with.

But there is no way to know if when or how God interacts with the material world, so we cannot test God objectively.

Well then we could take some of these messengers and check what's going on in their brains when they are having a religious experience like getting messages from God. I bet you will find they have some kind of temporal lobe epilepsy caused by injury or disease.
Spirituality and religion in epilepsy. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crinm/2015/235856/

Some so-called messengers might have that but the REAL Messengers do not. They have a Holy Spirit experience.

Describe this heaven I would be getting to in detail. See if you can get as detailed as in these books... Michael Newton

I cannot describe it in detail because nobody knows what heaven will be like in detail. That includes Michael Newton. You can choose to believe Newton’s version of heaven if you want to because you have free will.

Baha’u’llah knew what heaven was like in detail but He chose not to reveal that information to us for the following reason:

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

 

[Trailblazer]

Frightened? Atheism requires courage and intelligence. Anybody can fall to their knees groveling in worship, afraid of death. I prefer standing like the bipedal ape I was born to be, unencumbered by irrational superstitious beliefs.

Those are all true statements. It takes courage to go against the grain.

Besides that, whatever atheists do that is good, we know they are not doing it because they are afraid of God or for a reward in heaven but rather for the sake of goodness.

 

[ratiocinator]

God could create all history in the initial instant but God does not create history.

Unless you actually think your god can do self-contradictory things (like create square circles) then god would have had no choice - unless it decided to introduce some totally random element. Either the world (and all the people in it) is a deterministic system or it isn't. If it is, all of history is determined from the start, if it isn't then there is randomness.

Of course god could interfere with the system, but that would all be its choice too.

God allows humans to create history. It is as if God gave us a chessboard (the world) and we are the chess pieces moving around on the board.

This is meaningless for the above reasons. Yes, humans may make "free" choices (see compatibilism) but they must do so because of their nature, nurture, and experience which is all determined from the past (unless there is true randomness).

This is a basic problem for all religions, with omnipotent, omniscient creators, that say that we have "free will" and use it as an excuse for evil and judgement. It doesn't make sense.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”

So your god like the gullible, who can accept things on blind faith, and thinks the rational, who look for objective evidence for objective claims, are wayward and perverse - charming.

No, you should only look at the religion(s) that are most likely to be true.

How on earth would you decide that? And why just religions out of all the world's superstitions?

 

[night912]

But there is no way to know if when or how God interacts with the material world, so we cannot test God objectively.

Some so-called messengers might have that but the REAL Messengers do not. They have a Holy Spirit experience.

You contradicted yourself here. If we don't know if when or how god interacts with the material world, then how do we know that the messengers had a holy spirit experience?

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, I picked His version but there IS a difference.
He was a Manifestation of God and I am not.

That's just what you believe just like you picked his version of god to believe in.

 

[ArtieE]

I have a partial list and I know YOU are not a Messenger because you do not have the evidence to back up such a claim. I also know that because Baha'u'llah wrote that there can be no more Messengers after Him until the year 2852.

And he got that directly from God did he?

"God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!"

Send down who from where? Who are doing the punishing for God and from where do they come?

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

 

[ArtieE]

I am not saying you are FREE to believe in anything you want to, I meant generally speaking you can make a choice as to what you will accept as true and not.

No I can't. I can't choose what to accept as true.

But there is no way to know if when or how God interacts with the material world, so we cannot test God objectively.

That is irrelevant. Any interaction can be tested objectively in principle so either he doesn't interact at all in which case he's useless and might as well not exist, or he does interact in which case he could be proved to exist.

Some so-called messengers might have that but the REAL Messengers do not. They have a Holy Spirit experience.

LOL Did Bahá’u’lláh tell you that too? What did this Bahá’u’lláh know about Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and brain functions?

I cannot describe it in detail because nobody knows what heaven will be like in detail. That includes Michael Newton. You can choose to believe Newton’s version of heaven if you want to because you have free will.

No I can't choose to believe Newton's version of heaven. I can read information he and others have collected though and thoroughly check whether there are things that are contradictory, illogical or inconsistent or irrational or doesn't correspond with reality as we know it etc etc. Why should I believe any of it? I'm only interested in getting at the truth of the matter, and truth isn't found by believing anything but by gathering enough information so in the end there can be no doubt about the veracity of something. Your subjective opinion and belief doesn't count. It has to be shown to be true independent of the subjective opinions and beliefs of people.

I thought you might be interested in the God Helmet.
Introduction to the God Helmet. | Spirituality and The Brain
Now, my question is: Do God and Christ literally show themselves to these people or not? What does this Bahá’u’lláh say about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Unless you actually think your god can do self-contradictory things (like create square circles) then god would have had no choice - unless it decided to introduce some totally random element. Either the world (and all the people in it) is a deterministic system or it isn't. If it is, all of history is determined from the start, if it isn't then there is randomness.

History is not either determined or random. It is caused by the free will choices people choose to make.

Of course god could interfere with the system, but that would all be its choice too.

That is true.

This is meaningless for the above reasons. Yes, humans may make "free" choices (see compatibilism) but they must do so because of their nature, nurture, and experience which is all determined from the past (unless there is true randomness).

What humans do is affected by the past but every day we can learn something new and make new choices. We do not have to allow the past determine our present and future.

On free will: Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

This is a basic problem for all religions, with omnipotent, omniscient creators, that say that we have "free will" and use it as an excuse for evil and judgement. It doesn't make sense.

Only God knows the limitations on our free will so only God can judge who is accountable for their actions or lack thereof.

So your god like the gullible, who can accept things on blind faith, and thinks the rational, who look for objective evidence for objective claims, are wayward and perverse - charming.

That is not what that passage says. It says you have to use your innate powers when seeking God. That means you have to use your rational mind. The wayward and perverse are the people who do not even bother to seek God.

How on earth would you decide that? And why just religions out of all the world's superstitions?

You would look more carefully at a religion that makes the most rational sense to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

You contradicted yourself here. If we don't know if when or how god interacts with the material world, then how do we know that the messengers had a holy spirit experience?

Other than that God sends Messengers, we cannot know anything else God is doing to interact with the material world.

In other words, that is the only thing we can ever know that God does. The reason we can know is because we can see the Messengers and the Messengers leave their footprints in the sand by way of scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's just what you believe just like you picked his version of god to believe in.

Yes, that is what I believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

And he got that directly from God did he?

Yes, He got that from God, through the Holy Spirit.

Send down who from where? Who are doing the punishing for God and from where do they come?

I have no idea. Only God knows who the one doing the punishing will be and from where he will come.

 

[ratiocinator]

On free will: Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

This is logically incoherent. Look, when it comes to a choice, either the circumstances of the choice together with our initial state and all our past nurture and life experience (effectively everything that has made us who we are) fully determines the outcome or not.

If it does, then "free will", in all but the compatibilist sense, does not exist. If it doesn't, then some part of the choice is not as a result of any part of all the things that have made us who we are and all the relevant circumstances of the choice. In other words, it is basically a random input that has nothing to do with who we are. That cannot contribute to our freedom, so, again, "free will", in all but the compatibilist sense, does not exist.

The compatibilist version of "free will" doesn't make any sense from a the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator - who effectively decides all of the ingredients that make us who we are and therefore all that we do.

To make it even clearer, think about what might happen if you could literally rewind time and make a choice again. In that case everything would be the same; your nature and history including your exact state of mind. Could you choose differently?

If no, then we are back to determinism, and if yes, then the difference has to have been totally random. In both cases, you have the same conclusion. Randomness can't make us free and determinism can't make us from all the things a god would control.

That is not what that passage says. It says you have to use your innate powers when seeking God. That means you have to use your rational mind. The wayward and perverse are the people who do not even bother to seek God.

If somebody makes a claim about objective reality, then rationality demands objective reasons to accept it. There really is no way round that.

You would look more carefully at a religion that makes the most rational sense to you.

None of them make rational sense to me. I see no difference - they all look just like baseless superstitions.

 

[Trailblazer]

No I can't. I can't choose what to accept as true.

Why not? Don’t you make choices every day?

That is irrelevant. Any interaction can be tested objectively in principle so either he doesn't interact at all in which case he's useless and might as well not exist, or he does interact in which case he could be proved to exist.

If God was interacting with the material world, how do you think we could know? How do you think you could test it objectively?

Let’s say God does not interact with the material world except when He speaks to Messenegrs through the Holy Spirit. Why would that make God useless?

LOL Did Bahá’u’lláh tell you that too? What did this Bahá’u’lláh know about Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and brain functions?

Yes, I believe that Baha’u’llah had a Holy Spirit experience because He wrote about it.

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Bahaullah either had a Holy Spirit experience or He did not. Everyone has to determine whether or not they will believe that, if they care.

I don’t know what He knew about Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and brain functions but that is irrelevant.

No I can't choose to believe Newton's version of heaven. I can read information he and others have collected though and thoroughly check whether there are things that are contradictory, illogical or inconsistent or irrational or doesn't correspond with reality as we know it etc etc. Why should I believe any of it? I'm only interested in getting at the truth of the matter, and truth isn't found by believing anything but by gathering enough information so in the end there can be no doubt about the veracity of something. Your subjective opinion and belief doesn't count. It has to be shown to be true independent of the subjective opinions and beliefs of people.

After you have done all your research and information gathering, you can then choose to believe what makes the most sense to you. Nothing about the spiritual world (afterlife) can ever be shown to be true objectively.

I thought you might be interested in the God Helmet.
Introduction to the God Helmet. | Spirituality and The Brain
Now, my question is: Do God and Christ literally show themselves to these people or not? What does this Bahá’u’lláh say about that?

Thanks, that is interesting. I skimmed it but will read it more carefully later when I have time.

I do not think that belief in Baha’u’llah is a free will choice we make although we do need to exercise our free will to make the choice and Baha’u’llah wrote that those who make an effort are guided. We cannot know if we will be among those who are guided, only God knows that, so all we can do is make a sincere effort.

Baha’u’llah said that some people are guided by God to recognize Him which implies that other people are not guided. Why some of us recognize Bahaullah and others do not is not fully known to us, but it is fully known to God. Baha'u'llah in His Writings expressed that those who have joined the Cause have done something in the past that enabled them to receive this gift.

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."

(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

 

[Trailblazer]

This is logically incoherent. Look, when it comes to a choice, either the circumstances of the choice together with our initial state and all our past nurture and life experience (effectively everything that has made us who we are) fully determines the outcome or not.

No, that is the product of black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking, which is illogical. We have some freedom of choice, we just do not have complete freedom of choice.

If it does, then "free will", in all but the compatibilist sense, does not exist. If it doesn't, then some part of the choice is not as a result of any part of all the things that have made us who we are and all the relevant circumstances of the choice. In other words, it is basically a random input that has nothing to do with who we are. That cannot contribute to our freedom, so, again, "free will", in all but the compatibilist sense, does not exist.

The compatibilist version of "free will" doesn't make any sense from a the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator - who effectively decides all of the ingredients that make us who we are and therefore all that we do.

God does not decide all of the ingredients that make us who we are. Some of those ingredients are given to us at birth but they change as we go through life. Some of the ingredients are pretty set, but some can be changed.

To make it even clearer, think about what might happen if you could literally rewind time and make a choice again. In that case everything would be the same; your nature and history including your exact state of mind. Could you choose differently?

Anyone could have chosen differently than what they chose. The fact that they chose a certain way does not prove that they could not have chosen differently. Nobody can prove that.

If no, then we are back to determinism, and if yes, then the difference has to have been totally random. In both cases, you have the same conclusion. Randomness can't make us free and determinism can't make us from all the things a god would control.

If yes, the difference does not have to be random. It could have been because we had free will to choose differently.

If somebody makes a claim about objective reality, then rationality demands objective reasons to accept it. There really is no way round that.

I am not making a claim about objective reality. I make claims about spiritual reality.

None of them make rational sense to me. I see no difference - they all look just like baseless superstitions.

So I guess that means you have looked at all of them.

 

[ratiocinator]

No, that is the product of black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking, which is illogical.

Either the statement: human choices are entirely determined by the circumstances, the person's initial state and their subsequent nurture and life of experience, is true or it is false. There is no third option.

We have some freedom of choice, we just do not have complete freedom of choice.

What we need to consider is what you mean my "freedom". It looks like your idea of it, like many other people's, is logically incoherent.

God does not decide all of the ingredients that make us who we are. Some of those ingredients are given to us at birth but they change as we go through life. Some of the ingredients are pretty set, but some can be changed.

I didn't say they didn't change. We all change over the course of our life - that's why I've been including a lifetime of experience in the ingredients of our choices. However, an omni god would necessarily have chosen all that too, unless there is some genuine randomness in the world that it has decided not to control.

As I said, the world is either a deterministic system or it isn't (another true or false statement). If it is, god would have chosen everything, if not, god plus randomness would have chosen everything.

Anyone could have chosen differently than what they chose. The fact that they chose a certain way does not prove that they could not have chosen differently. Nobody can prove that.

I never claimed otherwise - it was another true or false question.

If yes, the difference does not have to be random. It could have been because we had free will to choose differently.

The term "free will" is meaningless in the context unless you can say how it works. And yes, if the you could literally rewind time and run exactly the same choice again, and it came out differently, then it does have to be random. Think about it. If everything is exactly the same, including the contents of your mind, and you choose differently, the difference can't be because of anything, because everything is exactly the same. The difference must be literally for no reason - which means it's random.

I am not making a claim about objective reality. I make claims about spiritual reality.

Is your god objectively real (does it exist for everybody, even if they don't believe it)? If not, then it's just a construct in your mind and this discussion is futile.

So I guess that means you have looked at all of them.

Back to my previous question of why anybody should go searching through all the world's superstitions just in case one of them might be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Either the statement: human choices are entirely determined by the circumstances, the person's initial state and their subsequent nurture and life of experience, is true or it is false. There is no third option.

It is false.

What we need to consider is what you mean my "freedom". It looks like your idea of it, like many other people's, is logically incoherent.

Why is it logically incoherent? We are free to choose from the options that are available to us, but not from what is not available.

I didn't say they didn't change. We all change over the course of our life - that's why I've been including a lifetime of experience in the ingredients of our choices. However, an omni god would necessarily have chosen all that too, unless there is some genuine randomness in the world that it has decided not to control.

There is no reason to think that God chooses anything for us, just because an omnipotent God has all power and an omniscient God knows what we will choose.

As I said, the world is either a deterministic system or it isn't (another true or false statement). If it is, god would have chosen everything, if not, god plus randomness would have chosen everything.

The world is not a deterministic system. What happens in the world is based upon free will choices we make.

The term "free will" is meaningless in the context unless you can say how it works.

I already explained how it works. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

And yes, if the you could literally rewind time and run exactly the same choice again, and it came out differently, then it does have to be random. Think about it. If everything is exactly the same, including the contents of your mind, and you choose differently, the difference can't be because of anything, because everything is exactly the same. The difference must be literally for no reason - which means it's random.

The difference choice would be because you decided to choose differently, but if the contents of your mind were exactly the same you would probably choose the same way because thought leads to volition and volition leads to action. Only if at the split second when you decided something changed would you have chosen differently..

Is your god objectively real (does it exist for everybody, even if they don't believe it)? If not, then it's just a construct in your mind and this discussion is futile.

Of course God exists for everyone, even if they do not believe in God.

Back to my previous question of why anybody should go searching through all the world's superstitions just in case one of them might be true.

Back to my previous answer that you do not need to search in all the world’s religions, only ones that are likely to be true. I only looked at one religion and I knew it was true so I did not need to look at any other religions. Maybe I just got lucky.

 

[ratiocinator]

I already explained how it works.

You haven't, actually.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

How do you know we're not "at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity"?

You've gone logically through how our desires and preferences come from our past lives but then we run into the black box of "the ability to make choices". We need to also add our current state of mind, which has to have come about entirely due to the past too (unless there is some randomness).

Now, if we could explicitly examine every single aspect of all of our desires and preferences, state of mind, and the circumstances of the choice (a god's-eye-view), and, as you seem to be saying, something else is involved, how does that thingamajig make its final choice? If it's not as a result of anything in our desires, preferences, state of mind, or the circumstances, how can it not be random?

The point is that any "free choice" a person makes is made for reasons (if it's not going to be partly random) and all the reasons must determine the choice and all the reasons come from the past - so a choice is deterministic and free will, at least from a god's point of view, is non-existent.

Only if at the split second when you decided something changed would you have chosen differently..

Exactly, something would have to be different.

Of course God exists for everyone, even if they do not believe in God.

Then your claim of god is objective and it is rational to want an objective reason to take it seriously.

Back to my previous answer that you do not need to search in all the world’s religions, only ones that are likely to be true. I only looked at one religion and I knew it was true so I did not need to look at any other religions. Maybe I just got lucky.

None of them seem likely to be true to me. I see no prima facie reason to take any of the world's superstitions seriously.

 

[ArtieE]

Because the evidence indicates it.

But you don't know things because evidence indicates it then you just believe things...