The Folly of Atheism

[ArtieE]

Those are all true statements. It takes courage to go against the grain.

Besides that, whatever atheists do that is good, we know they are not doing it because they are afraid of God or for a reward in heaven but rather for the sake of goodness.

I'm sure atheists have many reasons for what they do, but my reason for "doing good" is simply that doing good is beneficial for the well-being and survival of my society and everybody in it including myself. No god required.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you don't know things because evidence indicates it then you just believe things...

I know and believe because of the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sure atheists have many reasons for what they do, but my reason for "doing good" is simply that doing good is beneficial for the well-being and survival of my society and everybody in it including myself. No god required.

That is the best reason I can think of.

 

[ArtieE]

Why not? Don’t you make choices every day?

Sure. But not between accepting what's true. I simply can't make the choice to believe in fairies no matter how much I tried.

If God was interacting with the material world, how do you think we could know? How do you think you could test it objectively?

He could show us his backside again like he did to Moses. We could use all kinds of scientific instruments to figure out exactly what he is.

Let’s say God does not interact with the material world except when He speaks to Messenegrs through the Holy Spirit. Why would that make God useless?

Because using fallible humans as go-betweens is guaranteed to get any message you have corrupted. Unless you claim that these messengers are all 100% correct in what they claim?

Yes, I believe that Baha’u’llah had a Holy Spirit experience because He wrote about it.

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Bahaullah either had a Holy Spirit experience or He did not. Everyone has to determine whether or not they will believe that, if they care.

I'm not interested in "believing" it. What I'm interested in is:
1. This "Breeze of God" did it involve actual air molecules moving so that they could be measured? Was this noticed by somebody else?
2. This "Holy Ghost" was standing on his right hand. Well, what did it look like?! How big was it?! What did it do?! Did it impact on things in the room?!
3. What did this "Supreme Spirit" actually look like?! How big was it?! How far in front of his face was it?!
4. What did Gabriel actually look like?! How big was he?! Did he have wings?!

Why can't your messenger come up with some actual useful information instead of blabbering on about bosoms and "reflections of glory"!

After you have done all your research and information gathering, you can then choose to believe what makes the most sense to you.

No I can't. The truth value of something isn't determined by what I feel makes sense to me.

Nothing about the spiritual world (afterlife) can ever be shown to be true objectively.

Meaningless statement as you have no way of knowing that for a fact.

Baha’u’llah said that some people are guided by God to recognize Him which implies that other people are not guided. Why some of us recognize Bahaullah and others do not is not fully known to us, but it is fully known to God. Baha'u'llah in His Writings expressed that those who have joined the Cause

Which Cause exactly?

 

[ArtieE]

I know and believe because of the evidence.

You believe because of evidence. You know because of facts. I see no reason to believe stuff because of evidence. Belief just gets in the way of the search for truth and fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure. But not between accepting what's true. I simply can't make the choice to believe in fairies no matter how much I tried.

Just like I could not choose to believe in the beliefs of other religions such as the same body of Jesus floating down from the sky.

He could show us his backside again like he did to Moses. We could use all kinds of scientific instruments to figure out exactly what he is.

I do not believe that God ever showed His backside because God does not have a backside.
I cannot just choose to believe in that.

Because using fallible humans as go-betweens is guaranteed to get any message you have corrupted. Unless you claim that these messengers are all 100% correct in what they claim?

I believe that the Manifestations of God are infallible because they represent the will of God who is infallible.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

I'm not interested in "believing" it. What I'm interested in is:
1. This "Breeze of God" did it involve actual air molecules moving so that they could be measured? Was this noticed by somebody else?
2. This "Holy Ghost" was standing on his right hand. Well, what did it look like?! How big was it?! What did it do?! Did it impact on things in the room?!
3. What did this "Supreme Spirit" actually look like?! How big was it?! How far in front of his face was it?!
4. What did Gabriel actually look like?! How big was he?! Did he have wings?!

Sorry, you won;t be getting any of that information. Only the Manifestations of God are privy to it.

Why can't your messenger come up with some actual useful information instead of blabbering on about bosoms and "reflections of glory"!

We were talking about His "Holy Spirit experience" and that is why I posted the passages.
That is just a small part of His total Writings, and many contain useful information.

No I can't. The truth value of something isn't determined by what I feel makes sense to me.

I did not say that what makes sense to you determines what is true, only that if it makes no sense to you you will probably not believe it.

Meaningless statement as you have no way of knowing that for a fact.

It is a fact, unless anyone has ever shown that the spiritual world (afterlife) is true objectively.

Which Cause exactly?

The Cause of Baha'u'llah, which is another way we refer to the religion now called the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe because of evidence. You know because of facts. I see no reason to believe stuff because of evidence. Belief just gets in the way of the search for truth and fact.

I have facts that support my evidence. That is why it is evidence.

 

[ArtieE]

I do not believe that God ever showed His backside because God does not have a backside.
I cannot just choose to believe in that.

So you don't believe Moses, your own messenger?

Sorry, you won;t be getting any of that information. Only the Manifestations of God are privy to it.

Like Moses was privy to seeing the backside of God?

We were talking about His "Holy Spirit experience" and that is why I posted the passages.
That is just a small part of His total Writings, and many contain useful information.

Then why don't you ever post any then? Seriously, post something that is useful and informative and detailed enough to actually learn something from!

I did not say that what makes sense to you determines what is true, only that if it makes no sense to you you will probably not believe it.

I wouldn't believe it anyway. I'm not a "believer" by nature.

 

[ArtieE]

I have facts that support my evidence. That is why it is evidence.

If you had facts you would have knowledge, not belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't believe Moses, your own messenger?

I would believe it if Moses actually wrote it.

Like Moses was privy to seeing the backside of God?

Nobody has ever seen God. Jesus said so.

Then why don't you ever post any then?
Seriously, post something that is useful and informative and detailed enough to actually learn something from!I

I do post them sometimes, if they are related to a subject I am talking about.

I wouldn't believe it anyway. I'm not a "believer" by nature.

Neither am I.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you had facts you would have knowledge, not belief.

I do have knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point is that any "free choice" a person makes is made for reasons (if it's not going to be partly random) and all the reasons must determine the choice and all the reasons come from the past - so a choice is deterministic and free will, at least from a god's point of view, is non-existent.

So what? Just because there are reasons why we do things that does not mean we do not have free will. We would not do anything if we did not have reasons because reasons are what motivate us to act. We make choices based upon reasons. Reasons do not make choices, people do.

Everything we do is based upon the past because at the moment we make a decision in the present, everything that affects that decision is in the past.

God’s point of view does not affect what we choose to do in any way. God knows what we will do only because God is All-Knowing.

Then your claim of god is objective and it is rational to want an objective reason to take it seriously.

I do not know what you mean by objective. My claim is that God exists. That does not mean there is any objective proof of God.

None of them seem likely to be true to me. I see no prima facie reason to take any of the world's superstitions seriously.

Then don’t search. God gave you free will so you can make that decision to search or not.

 

[ratiocinator]

So what? Just because there are reasons why we do things that does not mean we do not have free will. We would not do anything if we did not have reasons because reasons are what motivate us to act. We make choices based upon reasons. Reasons do not make choices, people do.

Everything we do is based upon the past because at the moment we make a decision in the present, everything that affects that decision is in the past.

You're still not following. If we consider all the possible reasons why we make a choice. Not only those about the circumstances and what is happening but all of the internal ones too; our personality, likes and dislikes, hopes and fears, preferences, beliefs, and so on. If all of those do not result in only one possible choice, then any remaining ingredient must be random because it has nothing at all do do with us or the choice being made.

God’s point of view does not affect what we choose to do in any way.

But unless there is true randomness in the world, then god will have decided what everybody will do the moment it created the world, because the world would be operating as a deterministic system (which is defined as one with no randomness).

I do not know what you mean by objective. My claim is that God exists. That does not mean there is any objective proof of God.

objective
1.1 Not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.

If your god is supposed to be objective, then it is reasonable to seek objective (not dependant on the mind) evidence.

Then don’t search. God gave you free will so you can make that decision to search or not.

Except for the impossibility of "free will" with respect to a god, fine - but this brings us back to the contradiction. If god is then going to judge people (or disadvantage them in any way) for not believing - it would mean that your god is not just and fair.

There are two major problems: the first is the impossibility of "free will" in this context, but even if we ignore that, we run up against the injustice of a god that would judge people for not believing when there is no objective evidence.

 

[ArtieE]

Nobody has ever seen God. Jesus said so.

How do you know that?

 

[Trailblazer]

You're still not following. If we consider all the possible reasons why we make a choice. Not only those about the circumstances and what is happening but all of the internal ones too; our personality, likes and dislikes, hopes and fears, preferences, beliefs, and so on. If all of those do not result in only one possible choice, then any remaining ingredient must be random because it has nothing at all do do with us or the choice being made.

I guess I am not following you. I do not know what mean by random.

But unless there is true randomness in the world, then god will have decided what everybody will do the moment it created the world, because the world would be operating as a deterministic system (which is defined as one with no randomness).

I m not sure how all this is related to free will. I believe people choose what they will do and what happens is determined by human will and actions that follow, not determined by God.

That said, I think there is also such a thing as predestination so some things are predestined by God but we cannot know what those are. Some of our destiny is irrevocable and some is impending, and the impending destiny can be changed by prayer and entreaty.

objective
1.1 Not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.
If your god is supposed to be objective, then it is reasonable to seek objective (not dependant on the mind) evidence.

There is objective evidence, by your definition of objective (actual) but how one interprets that evidence is subjective.

Except for the impossibility of "free will" with respect to a god, fine - but this brings us back to the contradiction. If god is then going to judge people (or disadvantage them in any way) for not believing - it would mean that your god is not just and fair.

I do not know that God will judge you, especially if you made a sincere effort and did not find what was evidence to you.

There are two major problems: the first is the impossibility of "free will" in this context, but even if we ignore that, we run up against the injustice of a god that would judge people for not believing when there is no objective evidence.

There is objective evidence but how is that unjust for God to judge you if you did not like the evidence He provided?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know that?

Because Jesus said so and I trust Jesus.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

That is also how we know Jesus was not God, because people saw Jesus.

 

[ArtieE]

Because Jesus said so and I trust Jesus.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

That is also how we know Jesus was not God, because people saw Jesus.

Except of course that Jesus is God as John 1:18 clearly states. "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

Is Jesus really God? There are many cults and false religions today that deny it.
Is Jesus God?

 

[ArtieE]

I guess I am not following you. I do not know what mean by random.

If you are standing at a crossroads and have a choice between taking two roads that choice is influenced by all your previous experiences and hence isn't determined by free will. You can't freely choose which road to take your choice has been influenced by what has happened to you previously. You can flip a coin. That's what random means.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except of course that Jesus is God as John 1:18 clearly states. "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

"the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father"

God is in closest relationship with Himself?
That makes absolutely no logical sense and they changed the translation to try to make Jesus into God.

The correct translations are as follows:

John 1:18

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

 

[Trailblazer]

Is Jesus really God? There are many cults and false religions today that deny it.
Is Jesus God?

Did Jesus Tell the Sanhedrin He Was God?

January 30, 2014 by Kermit Zarley0 Comments

Christians generally have believed that the Jewish Sanhedrin (Council) accused Jesus of Nazareth of claiming to be God, and that is why it condemned him as a blasphemer worthy of death. But according to the New Testament (NT) gospels, Jesus did not tell the Sanhedrin he was God.

During the latter part of Jesus’ public ministry, the scribes and Pharisees constantly questioned him about his teachings. They wanted to “catch Him in some statement, so as to deliver Him up to the rule and the authority of the governor” (Luke 20.20 NASB).........

Sometimes when Jesus had preached to crowds, they questioned who he was, mostly if he was Israel’s promised Messiah (John 6.14-15; 7.40-41; 8.25; 10.24). Consequently, Caiaphas the High Priest now demanded an unequivocal answer from Jesus about his identity. According to Matthew, Caiaphas exclaimed, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26.63).

Jesus answered Caiaphas somewhat obscurely, yet affirmatively, “You have said it yourself” (Matthew 26.64). Then he added, “nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven” (v. 64). This addition is a clear self-designation as the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7.13-14 and “Lord” in Psalm 110.1, the latter of whom Jews interpreted as the Messiah.

For the first time, Jesus unequivocally claimed publicly of being the Messiah-the Son of God-the Son of Man. It is the most thoroughgoing self-identification he ever made. He fully revealed who he was, yet he did not say that he was God. Rather, he distinguished himself from God and asserted that in the future God would vindicate him to the utmost.

The High Priest then invoked a long-held tradition, tearing his robe as a symbolic gesture signifying mourning, and charged Jesus with blasphemy. The Sanhedrin agreed.

The reason so many Christians have thought that Jesus here claimed to be God is that he admitted to being the Son of God. But that is a misunderstanding of the Bible’s use of this expression. The Old Testament (OT) applies it not only to the promised Messiah, but also angels, pious men, kings of Israel, and even the nation of Israel. Jews rightly understood that the Messiah being the Son of God, as in Psalm 2.7, 12, indicated no more than an unprecedented, intimate relationship between him and God. And the High Priest probably connected these two expressions, since Jews understood them synonymously.

Church fathers subsequently taught that Jesus was God because he was the Son of God. But they tended to be anti-Semitic, thus ignoring whatever Jews thought. And many church fathers were influenced by Greek religio-philosophy. Greek mythology espoused many gods and sons of gods, some of which were believed to have been generated by copulating with humans. Church fathers erroneously applied this Greek metaphysics. They reasoned that God having an only Son was similar to a man having a son. Since a man’s son became a man like himself, they reasoned that God’s Son must also be God.

It is most significant that neither the witnesses nor Sanhedrin members accused Jesus of ever claiming to be God. Jews had so accused Jesus twice in his career; yet both times he denied their accusation (John 5.16-47; 10.30-38). Apparently, they accepted his denial.

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

Did Jesus Tell the Sanhedrin He Was God?