The Folly of Atheism

[Catholicus]

Whataboutism. All through history? If you were "out" as an Atheist? You were typically murdered out of hand, with Christian Government Approval.

Only in the Modern Secular Government, can a person be "out" as an Atheist-- but here in 'Murrica? You better watch out-- you are a likely to be murdered as not, if you try to run for Politics.

But let me address your complaint about "killed for no other reason than their Christian belief"

I'm gonna call your bluff: I'm betting that you are going to mention either Hitler or Stalin or, maybe Mao.

And you'd be wrong. For starters? Hitler was a Christian, more specifically Catholic (albeit a rather twisted version-- although no different from many historic Catholics during the Dark Ages, when Christianity was synonymous with Government).

But Stalin killed anyone who was a threat to his government-- he cared not what you believed. Only that you recognized his Supreme Authority. Same for Mao.

Wrong. Many Christians were murdered in the Soviet Union for NO OTHER reason than their religious faith - and sometimes likewise under Mao.

Hitler was a renegade Christian who hated Christianity, blaming it for pacifism and Communism; and in turn hated the Jews for having caused Christianity.

No Christians of the Dark Ages (even the most brutal) shared Hitler's belief in Social Darwinism, the survival of the fittest and the VIRTUE and VALUE of brutality.

The Inquisition pursued theological deviants (heretics) - unbelievers like atheists were usually left in peace.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The difference between a cell (or any number of cells) and a foetus is too vast - and too obvious - for the question you raise to be worth discussion.

Or do you regard yourself as merely a collection of cells ?

Certainly no one else does or ever has done.

If it's SO obvious then surly you can point out precisely why a single living sperm cell is not considered an individual life form but the instant it joins with a living egg is SUDDENLY becomes an individual life form? The ONLY difference that I see if that the joined cells now have a slightly greater potential for becoming an actual individual life form. Like a said before, claiming that these two joined cells is EQUAL to an actual living individual is an insult to what it means to be an actual individual.

And YES, I AM merely a collection of cells! So are YOU! It's just that our particular collection of cells have attained the sentience of an individual.

And actually any biologist worth his or her salt would ALSO tell you that the human body is merely comprised of a vast collection of individual cells that work together to make you a sentient individual.

Your ignorance about how things work is truly phenomenal.

 

[Catholicus]

But science has done ONLY that - namely to understand the functioning of the universe

And you say that as if for some silly reason you EXPECT it to be able to do more. Determining how the universe works is what the scientific method DOES and it does it VERY well. Why do you have this silly need to try and elevate the method into some sort of magical religion that can answer every question imaginable?

You sound like someone complaining that "All mathematics does is allow us to evaluate data! It CAN'T help us to appreciate art!"

To which I would reply, "SO WHAT?" Just quit trying to use it for something it wasn't intended and then complain about it.

But science can't supplant art any more than it can supplant religion.

 

[Catholicus]

If it's SO obvious then surly you can point out precisely why a single living sperm cell is not considered an individual life form but the instant it joins with a living egg is SUDDENLY becomes an individual life form? The ONLY difference that I see if that the joined cells now have a slightly greater potential for becoming an actual individual life form. Like a said before, claiming that these two joined cells is EQUAL to an actual living individual is an insult to what it means to be an actual individual.

And YES, I AM merely a collection of cells! So are YOU! It's just that our particular collection of cells have attained the sentience of an individual.

And actually any biologist worth his or her salt would ALSO tell you that the human body is merely comprised of a vast collection of individual cells that work together to make you a sentient individual.

Your ignorance about how things work is truly phenomenal.

Whether consciousness - let alone personality - is caused by being a collection of cells, is doubtful in the extreme.

And why should anyone who kills a mere collection of cells (= ANY human being !), be punished for doing so ?

If it's perfectly OK to kill a mere collection of cells like a foetus, then it's perfectly OK to kill any and every member of the human race !

 

[Catholicus]

How silly... simply repeating what you said before adds nothing to the discussion.

YES, the fact that the universe has come into existence is evidence that the universe exists. However, your claim that it therefor had a CREATOR is STILL just a fantastical claim you've made with absolutely ZERO verifiable evidence to back it up. FIRST you need to provide verifiable evidence that this creator even exists THEN you need to provide verifiable evidence that it was this creator that actually created the universe.

Well, something or someone did !

God being the only reasonable possibility.

 

[shunyadragon]

Truth is absolute, and knowledge is relative to limits of human abilities and changes over time.

To add: Knowledge is functional in applications to the real world, and it also may be the application of the morals, ethics and standards of the time. Knowledge also may not be true in the absolute sense, and evolve, change, updated or replaced by later knowledge.

 

[Catholicus]

And I am sure you have evidence of that. Which is ...

Ciao

- viole

Common sense. The conflicting wills (of more than one god) couldn't create anything.

 

[QuestioningMind]

A sperm cell has no potential other than to be able to fertilise an egg.

It is alive, but is not a human being.

A foetus is.

On your basis, killing a few (living !) cells of someone's body by deliberately scratching that person, should be regarded by the courts as murder.

Nope. A fertilized human egg has no potential other than to someday become an actual viable human being. It is alive, but it is not yet an actual viable human being. And it will never become an actual viable human being unless the proper conditions are met and enough time passes.

And silly boy, it's YOUR argument that suggests that just because a fertilized egg is ALIVE that allowing it to die is somehow murder, since it would also suggest that simply because skin cells are alive that scratching someone is equal to murder.

 

[Catholicus]

Once again that is a false dichotomy. But then you probably cannot properly define your terms. The sciences tell us how the universe started. It does not tell us if a make believe entity existed or not. Most theists do not realize that demanding something as complex as the universe needs a maker is a self defeating argument. Tell me, do you see the huge glaring flaw in that claim?

But it isn't self-defeating.

The complexity and rationality and smooth-functioning (it survives !) of the universe, are excellent arguments for God's existence.

"Make believe entity" ?

You are ASSUMING A PRIORI that God is make-believe !

But that assumption can't be made.

 

[shunyadragon]

Common sense. The conflicting wills (of more than one god) couldn't create anything.

It could easily be the case of one Big Dog God, and mny lesser Gods, or . . .

Biblically 'my God(s) is greater than you God(s).' .

 

[viole]

Common sense. The conflicting wills (of more than one god) couldn't create anything.

You are assuming they have conflicting wills. Maybe they do not. maybe they are just dividing work among themselves. Ot maybe being a God means agreeing with any other God out of logical necessity.

Most of the things we create are part of a team. Ergo, several creators do not show any apparent contradiction.

So, do you have something better than that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[QuestioningMind]

But science can't supplant art any more than it can supplant religion.

ROFL...No it CAN"T! Why would you POSSIBLY expect that it would? Can't you simply accept that the scientific method does what it does VERY well, but that it's NOT some magical religion that you can pretend has answers to EVERY QUESTION IMAGINABLE?

Just because that's what you do with religion, doesn't mean that anyone should try and use science in the same silly way.

 

[Catholicus]

I know people who died, together with their families, because they believed a UFO hiding behind a comet would pick up their souls. Or some other nonsense.

How could have they been mistaken about It?

You underestimate the power of delusion, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

But believing that Jesus is God - thus has risen from the dead - is not nonsense.

Only the stupider sort of atheist imagines belief in God's existence to be nonsensical.

And why shouldn't God have taken on human nature and walked the earth ?

And what makes you think that Jesus was NOT (as He claimed to be) God ?

UFO's behind comets are hypothetical.

Someone's having risen from the dead isn't hypothetical - it's either True or False.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Whether consciousness - let alone personality - is caused by being a collection of cells, is doubtful in the extreme.

And why should anyone who kills a mere collection of cells (= ANY human being !), be punished for doing so ?

If it's perfectly OK to kill a mere collection of cells like a foetus, then it's perfectly OK to kill any and every member of the human race !

ONLY if you foolishly choose to ignore that an individual human is an actual sentient being and a mere collection of cells with potential are NOT. Why the heck would you do that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Completely unknown, since you'd first have to know exactly what exists and what consequences there are for belief or lack of belief.

Not completely unknown.

 

[Catholicus]

You really have no clue as to how the early Christians die. All there exists are church mythology in that regard.

Mythology ? No - ancient oral tradition and ancient texts.

What makes you think they are false ?

You are ready to believe in the annals written by classical historians - what makes you believe that the ancient Christian texts and oral traditions are any less reliable ?

Unless, of course, you are an intellectual snob who believes that only academics (and Roman big-pots) can be believed, whereas ordinary people (like the early Christians) can't be believed.

 

[ArtieE]

The Divine Attributes, of Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, are universal, when describing the Divine.

There appear to be at least ten attributes one of which is not shared by Allah? 10 Awesome Attributes of God and of course if you are going to make up the greatest god of all what else would you describing him as if not omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent etc etc? Isn't it amazing that people making up the greatest god in the world comes up with almost the same attributes?

 

[viole]

But believing that Jesus is God - thus has risen from the dead - is not nonsense.

Only the stupider sort of atheist imagines belief in God's existence to be nonsensical.
.

Now you are begging the question. To be honest with you, I find UFOS hiding behind a comet a tad more plausible than gods who take the weekend off for our sins and then take off to heaven. Or that they magically incarnate themselves in a wafer if you whisper some latin words on it, and you are dressed funny. I mean, don't you?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Catholicus]

Not even the Christian God and Allah is the same god. God has a son. Allah doesn't. God is triune, Allah isn't. And on and on. Pick one or the other. Pick Allah and you can forget all about any resurrection. Muslims say that's a lie. No Christ paying for people's sins.
What are the differences between Allah and the God of the Christian Bible? | Truth Or Tradition?"A new survey shows that 51 per cent of people in the world believe in God." Can you then figure out how many don't?
Most people believe in God, international poll finds

Muslims and Christians are in agreement on this - that the One True God is the God first worshipped clearly by Abraham.

 

[JJ50]

Well, something or someone did !

God being the only reasonable possibility.

In your opinion!