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The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So? This is significant... how?
How recent is "recent," and what point are you making? Why would such a melting be troublesome?

Earth's had warm and cold periods for hundreds of millions of years. There were times when arctic temperatures were Florida-like. There were times when half the northern hemisphere was covered in glaciers. There was one time when the entire globe froze.


I'm not sure why the sentence "So?" Are you trying to be argumentative?
Who's making such a claim? All anyone's saying is that what we do know precludes magic poofing and much of the biblical narrative. Our claims are based on empirical evidence, yours on folklore.

You will have to go and look it up in previous posts.
What faith belief? Please give some examples. Science abhors faith, and has developed a whole methodology to eliminate it.
What is not known we admit is not known. What we claim to know is supported by tangible, testable, objective evidence.
Science can show why it believes what it does, but, despite claims, religion largely can not.

Faith... if you have a job, do you have a knowledge of their banking account as you work for each two week period? No. You have a faith on what you do not see that they will fulfill their word.

Science faith:

When did life on Earth begin?

Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Scientists think that by 4.3 billion years ago, Earth may have developed conditions suitable to support life. The oldest known fossils, however, are only 3.7 billion years old. During that 600 million-year window, life may have emerged repeatedly, only to be snuffed out by catastrophic collisions with asteroids and comets.

A lot of faith positions with those words.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The context is that he is saying that science knows it all. I am not saying that it doesn't have a picture just not a complete one. An outline... yes. But be honest, with all that we can learn, how much is it comparison to what we don't know yet?
We're not making any claims about what we don't know. Our claims are based on known, demonstrable facts. We can show our work.
Yes, there's much we don't yet know, but this doesn't affect what we do know, and it's only what we do know that we're drawing conclusions from.
But let me give you a beginning point... Genesis does NOT have a detail on how God created the earth. Neither does science tell us how it all began. It is a story about human kind. Cain was an agriculturist... we can estimate when agriculture began... it is within the margin of error. (Didn't reach that point with the previous poster).
OK -- so show your work. How were the claims of Genesis researched and tested? How might they be falsifiable?
Science does have theories yet to be supported. If I am not mistaken.
You are mistaken. I think you're applying the colloquial definition of theory to scientific theory. They're very different.

"Unsupported theory" is an oxymoron. If it's not based on objective, tested, facts, it's not a theory. "Theory" describes the highest level of confidence in science. There is nothing above a theory.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

When did life on Earth begin?

Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Scientists think that by 4.3 billion years ago, Earth may have developed conditions suitable to support life. The oldest known fossils, however, are only 3.7 billion years old. During that 600 million-year window, life may have emerged repeatedly, only to be snuffed out by catastrophic collisions with asteroids and comets.

A lot of faith positions with those words.
Where is the faith? Or are you just breaking the Ninth Commandment again. Accusing scientists of "faith' in their work is a very strong accusation and you need strong evidence to support it. But you will probably ignore this apparent sin of yours.

But thank you for telling us that you do not understand scientific language. Why do you prefer false dogmatic claims that have no evidentiary support to claims that are probably true and stated that way. How is that "faith"?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure why the sentence "So?" Are you trying to be argumentative?
No -- apologies if i gave that impression.
I'm perplexed by what you see as significant or problematic about the fact that Greenland was once warm and verdant and is now cold and icy. I mean: So what is the significance of this?
Faith... if you have a job, do you have a knowledge of their banking account as you work for each two week period? No. You have a faith on what you do not see that they will fulfill their word.
You're using "faith" in a somewhat different sense than it's used in epistemically, in serious ontological discussion.
I'm using it to mean belief without evidence, or with poor evidence.

Based on experience and the likelihood of negative consequences my employer should they start messing up paychecks, I'm confident enough in our contract to continue working there.
This is how faith is used colloquially, in everyday parlance, but in discussion of objective fact, it has a more technical definition.
What I'm saying is that some of the biblical narrative is unfounded/unjustified/unevidenced -- and by evidence I mean tangible, objective evidence. Moreover, the Bible makes some claims that would violate the laws of physics or chemistry, and others that would have definitely have left evidence, yet there is none.
Skepticism is justified, I think.

Science faith:

When did life on Earth begin?

Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Scientists think that by 4.3 billion years ago, Earth may have developed conditions suitable to support life. The oldest known fossils, however, are only 3.7 billion years old. During that 600 million-year window, life may have emerged repeatedly, only to be snuffed out by catastrophic collisions with asteroids and comets.

A lot of faith positions with those words.

This is a stylistic quibble about wording, in a popular (not technical) publication.
"About" Science isn't claiming an exact, temporal moment. The author is just establishing the general time period he's referring to.
"Think" ie, believe -- a neutral word. It's faith vs knowledge position is not indicated.
"May" First usage: a poor choice of wording. See below. The fact that it happened isn't in dispute. 2nd usage: appropriate. It refers to possible but unknown events -- that are irrelevant to the fact that life did originate.

The article makes the point that the exact origin(s) of life on Earth are not easy to pinpoint. Fossils we have found may post-date the first organisms.

Fact: Earth was once barren, and had conditions incompatible with life.
Fact: Earth now has life, and conditions compatible with life.
Ergo: Said conditions did develop.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
We're not making any claims about what we don't know. Our claims are based on known, demonstrable facts. We can show our work.
Yes, there's much we don't yet know, but this doesn't affect what we do know, and it's only what we do know that we're drawing conclusions from.

Yes... claims are made by what you know and then adjusted when you find out something that wasn't right... science corrects itself... I understand that. Can you demonstrably show me a virus that changes into a bacteria or visa versa? Which came first? How did it mutate? Please show me the work

I think the problem here is that you are jumping in without knowing how we got there in the discussion.



OK -- so show your work. How were the claims of Genesis researched and tested? How might they be falsifiable

This makes no sense. When did agriculture start?

You are mistaken. I think you're applying the colloquial definition of theory to scientific theory. They're very different.

"Unsupported theory" is an oxymoron. If it's not based on objective, tested, facts, it's not a theory. "Theory" describes the highest level of confidence in science. There is nothing above a theory.

Now you are getting technical, is it because it suits your narrative? Would you please correct Live Science? They are saying it wrong. :shrug:

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes... claims are made by what you know and then adjusted when you find out something that wasn't right... science corrects itself... I understand that. Can you demonstrably show me a virus that changes into a bacteria or visa versa?
If you knew 7th grade science you would understand that is an absurd question. You have had the chance to read up on how evolution works but you refuse. So why have any opinion about these matters at all?
Which came first? How did it mutate? Please show me the work
You can look it up and read.
I think the problem here is that you are jumping in without knowing how we got there in the discussion.
Believers made wrong claims about nature and science.
This makes no sense. When did agriculture start?
When humans settled in permanent places and learned how to plant and harvest and store food. Humans went from following herds of animals for food to learning how to corrale them. This is also when religions started, as more people had free time to invent stories and lore.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes... claims are made by what you know and then adjusted when you find out something that wasn't right... science corrects itself... I understand that. Can you demonstrably show me a virus that changes into a bacteria or visa versa? Which came first? How did it mutate? Please show me the work
OK, You seem to be pointing to problems in biology's hypotheses about the origins of life. are you proposing an abiogenic origin of complex orgamisms?
To address your specific question, Viruses aren't life. Most are just snippets of DNA or RNA in a protein capsule. They have no metabolism, they don't eat, they don't reproduce; save nucleic acid, they don't have the components of life. They're just programs or blueprints. The closest they'd come to "turning into" an organism is in the case of retroviruses, which can incorporate their DNA into the genome of an actual organism.
I think the problem here is that you are jumping in without knowing how we got there in the discussion
You may be right. This thread's >200 posts long, can you steer me to the point where the current contention began?
.This makes no sense. When did agriculture start?
What makes no sense? Signs of agriculture first appeared 8 to 10,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. :shrug:
Now you are getting technical, is it because it suits your narrative? Would you please correct Live Science? They are saying it wrong. :shrug:

I'm getting technical because it's a technical discussion about a technical subject.

Interesting article. Not very technical, nor does it reflect or explain much about current scientific thought on the subject.

So what are we discussing, here? Abiogenesisn vs Creationism? Evolution vs magic poofing? Timelines? Mechanisms?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
OK, You seem to be pointing to problems in biology's hypotheses about the origins of life. are you proposing an abiogenic origin of complex orgamisms?
To address your specific question, Viruses aren't life. Most are just snippets of DNA or RNA in a protein capsule. They have no metabolism, they don't eat, they don't reproduce; save nucleic acid, they don't have the components of life. They're just programs or blueprints. The closest they'd come to "turning into" an organism is in the case of retroviruses, which can incorporate their DNA into the genome of an actual organism.

You may be right. This thread's >200 posts long, can you steer me to the point where the current contention began?

What makes no sense? Signs of agriculture first appeared 8 to 10,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. :shrug:

I'm getting technical because it's a technical discussion about a technical subject.

Interesting article. Not very technical, nor does it reflect or explain much about current scientific thought on the subject.

So what are we discussing, here? Abiogenesisn vs Creationism? Evolution vs magic poofing? Timelines? Mechanisms?
Ok... Valjean, let me bring up the issue (not that there was an issue for me) for context. Thanks for what appears as a difference in tone.

The question presented, as I understand it, was simply what part of Genesis is verifiably true. Not about Abiogenesis or Creationism.

My response was simply "There isn't enough information in Genesis to say that Genesis is wrong". Too many variable in which even Christians have different viewpoints of Genesis. I may be mistaken, I think the poster thought that the only viewpoint was a literal 7 days or an young earth position - when there are more than one position.

The Bible doesn't say how what we see was created... God, as I believe there is one, simply said He created it. IMV, it does appear as everything is driven by some sort of force to a path of life and evolution can be a pathway.

There are some scientific confirmation of some aspects of Creation.

A couple of thoughts.

1) You said that viruses aren't life. Isn't that a human construct of the definition of life? Is it dead? no. The reason I mention viruses vs bacteria was simply because the poster mentioned that every scientific discovery is reproducible. I stretched the point to its apex just to say "if everything is 'provable' - then prove to me how you change a virus into a bacteria - showing that there are some things we believe but don't "yet" have a definitive proof.

Wasn't trying to point out the differences between bacteria and viruses. I know that viruses reproduce in other organisms.

2) I mentioned agriculture only because Cain was an agriculturist and it falls within the suggested time of its appearance (within the margin of error) - so that part can be claimed as potentially true versus a simple mythology - which the poster believes. I posted that I don't find mythology having a genealogy that includes real life people all the way up to Jesus.

So I don't find why it became contentious. I believe science has its place and is important. I interpret the complexities of science as another proof of a higher power or a God... but I don't require people to believe as I do.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok... Valjean, let me bring up the issue (not that there was an issue for me) for context. Thanks for what appears as a difference in tone.

The question presented, as I understand it, was simply what part of Genesis is verifiably true. Not about Abiogenesis or Creationism.

My response was simply "There isn't enough information in Genesis to say that Genesis is wrong". Too many variable in which even Christians have different viewpoints of Genesis. I may be mistaken, I think the poster thought that the only viewpoint was a literal 7 days or an young earth position - when there are more than one position.

The Bible doesn't say how what we see was created... God, as I believe there is one, simply said He created it. IMV, it does appear as everything is driven by some sort of force to a path of life and evolution can be a pathway.

There are some scientific confirmation of some aspects of Creation.

A couple of thoughts.

1) You said that viruses aren't life. Isn't that a human construct of the definition of life? Is it dead? no. The reason I mention viruses vs bacteria was simply because the poster mentioned that every scientific discovery is reproducible. I stretched the point to its apex just to say "if everything is 'provable' - then prove to me how you change a virus into a bacteria - showing that there are some things we believe but don't "yet" have a definitive proof.
LOL -- All definitions are human inventions. Agreement on definitions is necessary if interlocutors want to avoid talking past each other.
If a virus is a snippet of already extant DNA/RNA, organisms and their genomes predate the cellular debris that form viruses.
Wasn't trying to point out the differences between bacteria and viruses. I know that viruses reproduce in other organisms.

2) I mentioned agriculture only because Cain was an agriculturist and it falls within the suggested time of its appearance (within the margin of error) - so that part can be claimed as potentially true versus a simple mythology - which the poster believes. I posted that I don't find mythology having a genealogy that includes real life people all the way up to Jesus.
I'm questioning the reality of the Biblical narrative your world-view is founded on.
Is the narrative on which you're basing the pertinent premises true? Was the Cain and Able story real, or just folklore? What is the objective evidence?
Extended, this can include the whole theological narrative.
So I don't find why it became contentious. I believe science has its place and is important. I interpret the complexities of science as another proof of a higher power or a God... but I don't require people to believe as I do.
Science is about facts. It wants supporting evidence for these facts.
Religion makes a lot of claims, but they're based on folklore, Factual evidence is lacking. The Christian narrative is no better evidenced than the Muslim, Egyptian, Jain, or Mayan narrative.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
LOL -- All definitions are human inventions. Agreement on definitions is necessary if interlocutors want to avoid talking past each other.
If a virus is a snippet of already extant DNA/RNA, organisms and their genomes predate the cellular debris that form viruses.

:) Correct! LOL... My definition is since it isn't dead... it is alive :D I'm sure your biology understanding is better than mine...

I'm questioning the reality of the Biblical narrative your world-view is founded on.
Is the narrative on which you're basing the pertinent premises true? Was the Cain and Able story real, or just folklore? What is the objective evidence?
Extended, this can include the whole theological narrative.

Yes... those are all valid statements and questions. One can look at the evidence and go either way. Many very intelligent people have looked at the same evidence and came to different conclusions. They both looked at the objective evidence and each had a different end-thought.

I'm on the side of "believing it isn't folklore".

Science is about facts. It wants supporting evidence for these facts.
Religion makes a lot of claims, but they're based on folklore, Factual evidence is lacking. The Christian narrative is no better evidenced than the Muslim, Egyptian, Jain, or Mayan narrative.

Now, here I find your viewpoint and opinions.

1) Religion is based on folklore. I'm sure some may be, but that doesn't mean all are. Yes, you can find where there are religions based on folklore or exaggerated stories on some things that happened. There are many folklores on Daniel Boone, but there is a real history of Daniel Boone. I view the TaNaKh based on real history.
2) Factual evidence is lacking. We know, of course, absence of evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exists.

So I don't come to the same conclusion as you do.

Example: At one time Kind David was folklore... until they found evidence. The size of his kingdom was folklore until they found evidence. Archaeology is painstakingly long with many man-made and natural disasters and processes that can make it difficult to verify.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
:) Correct! LOL... My definition is since it isn't dead... it is alive :D I'm sure your biology understanding is better than mine...
Doesn't "dead" presuppose being alive, at some point? ;)
Yes... those are all valid statements and questions. One can look at the evidence and go either way. Many very intelligent people have looked at the same evidence and came to different conclusions. They both looked at the objective evidence and each had a different end-thought.
But is the algebra of the intelligent believers correct? Are their conclusions logically justified?
I'm skeptical. I don't see good evidence supporting the fantastical, Biblical narrative. I don't see it as any more persuasive or evidenced than the ancient Greek or Aztec narratives.
1) Religion is based on folklore. I'm sure some may be, but that doesn't mean all are. Yes, you can find where there are religions based on folklore or exaggerated stories on some things that happened. There are many folklores on Daniel Boone, but there is a real history of Daniel Boone. I view the TaNaKh based on real history.
OK, so where is the objective evidence supporting the veracity of the folklore? Are the stories believable, in the first place? Is there corroborating evidence? Would anyone believe them if they were reported in today's paper?

In re: the Tanakh, arcæological evidence is sparse, and much of it contradicts the narrative. Most importantly, IMHO, it depicts God as a troubled, vicious warlord.
2) Factual evidence is lacking. We know, of course, absence of evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exists.
Good point. The "absence of evidence" trope is often misused.
But, on the other hand, belief in the unevidenced is not reasonable. So I don't come to the same conclusion as you do.
Example: At one time Kind David was folklore... until they found evidence. The size of his kingdom was folklore until they found evidence. Archaeology is painstakingly long with many man-made and natural disasters and processes that can make it difficult to verify.
Good point. Historical facts are constantly being uncovered and revised by new evidence, but none of it supports the supernatural aspects of the theological narrative.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In certain epochs, you are correct.

In 60 millenniums, it would be hard pressed to have all information to determine if there was a time when things were different.

For an example:


Scientists found frozen plant fossils, preserved under a mile of ice on Greenland. The discovery helps confirm a new and troubling understanding that the Greenland Ice Sheet has melted entirely during recent warm periods in Earth's history

Could that be the time when all was well? I wouldn't know...

However, what it does exemplify is that you really don't have all the information on the history of the earth. Basically, you are taking your faith belief and imposing it on what is not known... a religion of sorts since you are basing in on perfect facts.
You are overstating a reference you do not understand the context, and 'arguing from ignorance' falsely as to what since known in geologic history. You hype a layman's article with the misuse of terminology. The layman author may be shocked, but geologists like myself are not indeed 'shocked.'

We have cyclic uniform lake deposits tens of thousands of years old, we have abundant fossil and paleontological evidence in discreet sequences going back millions of years.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Doesn't "dead" presuppose being alive, at some point? ;)

LOL... exactly! That is why viruses are alive.

But is the algebra of the intelligent believers correct? Are their conclusions logically justified?
I'm skeptical. I don't see good evidence supporting the fantastical, Biblical narrative. I don't see it as any more persuasive or evidenced than the ancient Greek or Aztec narratives.

But, isn't that what I just said? Everyone looks at what they see and come to their own conclusion. Skeptical is not bad if one is looking for answers.

Are they logically justified? - Yes and no - depends on the person

Examples: A person has a cancerous tumor - then it is gone. Spiritual people say "a miracle" - non-spiritual - "spontaneous regression!" Who is right? Both have the same results.

More personal... a friend of mine, Cynthia Robinson. Decades ago had a skiing accident and broke her back and went to John Hopkins hospital. In those days the would "bridge" the break. After two failed attempts they said, "There is nothing we can do. Don't life anything heavier that 5lbs and don't have babies". She went to a Kathryn Kuhlman meeting and because of not enough sitting space they sat her behind the pulpit area. During the service, nothing happened and wasn't called up. Goes back to her hotel bedroom completely hopeless. Crawls into a ball on the floor next to the bed and bawls to God asking "Why". While in that state she finally gets the presence of mind and realized she had no more pain. Goes back to John Hopkins hospital and they said "We don't understand it but there is no break in your vertebrae. Our only explanation is a miracle"

Two babies later and pushing a lawn mower....

Now... there are two positions:

1) The believer or as the doctor placed on the report "It's a miracle"
2) the doubter - "Show me the X-rays - let me see the report (like I have her report in my back pocket), why isn't it in the news"

No matter what one says -- it is still going to be an issue.

But each person has to be convince by and of themselves. I believe in the "seek and you shall find et al".
OK, so where is the objective evidence supporting the veracity of the folklore? Are the stories believable, in the first place? Is there corroborating evidence? Would anyone believe them if they were reported in today's paper?

In re: the Tanakh, arcæological evidence is sparse, and much of it contradicts the narrative. Most importantly, IMHO, it depicts God as a troubled, vicious warlord.

I'm not sure about your statement of Tanakh. In archaeology, there are many words like "possibly", margins of errors, misapplication of what one sees and, sometimes, fraud. But, as I mentioned to someone, many archaeologists use the Bible as a reference point to find lost cities. It does lend to the support that there is a history that is written that can be trusted.

Good point. The "absence of evidence" trope is often misused.
But, on the other hand, belief in the unevidenced is not reasonable. So I don't come to the same conclusion as you do.

Which I acknowledge. My point was simply that many intelligent and wise people have come to opposite end of conclusions.

Good point. Historical facts are constantly being uncovered and revised by new evidence, but none of it supports the supernatural aspects of the theological narrative.

Perhaps because we interpret it differently? Sometimes we see something natural and don't know the supernatural aspects of it.

How many countries have had their populace spread throughout the world and maintained still their customs and language? Just one
How many countries were dispersed throughout the world and came back to the same country, the same language and the same customs? Just one.
How did the Tanakh know that it would become a nation again?
After 2,000 years, how did Israel once again become a nation? | JJ Travel in Israel - and this doesn't include the Diaspora.

I see it as a miracle in every sense of history and probabilities. Someone else will simple say "self-fulfilling". Who is right?

Reminds me of what Jesus said, 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Jesus rose from the dead and people don't believe that either.

I guess I believe a lot easier because of the miracles I have seen. :) Makes it easier to believe in the miraculous. As my testimony goes, "I was at a bar appropriately called Mac's Zoo Room staring into a Tom Collins and thought 'Where are all the miracles that I have heard about in the Bible stories?' Of course the only miracles in a Tom Collins that can be found is a next day headache or a pink elephant that night. But when I gave my life to Jesus, miracles abounded".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
LOL... exactly! That is why viruses are alive.



But, isn't that what I just said? Everyone looks at what they see and come to their own conclusion. Skeptical is not bad if one is looking for answers.

Are they logically justified? - Yes and no - depends on the person

Examples: A person has a cancerous tumor - then it is gone. Spiritual people say "a miracle" - non-spiritual - "spontaneous regression!" Who is right? Both have the same results.

More personal... a friend of mine, Cynthia Robinson. Decades ago had a skiing accident and broke her back and went to John Hopkins hospital. In those days the would "bridge" the break. After two failed attempts they said, "There is nothing we can do. Don't life anything heavier that 5lbs and don't have babies". She went to a Kathryn Kuhlman meeting and because of not enough sitting space they sat her behind the pulpit area. During the service, nothing happened and wasn't called up. Goes back to her hotel bedroom completely hopeless. Crawls into a ball on the floor next to the bed and bawls to God asking "Why". While in that state she finally gets the presence of mind and realized she had no more pain. Goes back to John Hopkins hospital and they said "We don't understand it but there is no break in your vertebrae. Our only explanation is a miracle"

Two babies later and pushing a lawn mower....

Now... there are two positions:

1) The believer or as the doctor placed on the report "It's a miracle"
2) the doubter - "Show me the X-rays - let me see the report (like I have her report in my back pocket), why isn't it in the news"

No matter what one says -- it is still going to be an issue.

But each person has to be convince by and of themselves. I believe in the "seek and you shall find et al".


I'm not sure about your statement of Tanakh. In archaeology, there are many words like "possibly", margins of errors, misapplication of what one sees and, sometimes, fraud. But, as I mentioned to someone, many archaeologists use the Bible as a reference point to find lost cities. It does lend to the support that there is a history that is written that can be trusted.



Which I acknowledge. My point was simply that many intelligent and wise people have come to opposite end of conclusions.



Perhaps because we interpret it differently? Sometimes we see something natural and don't know the supernatural aspects of it.

How many countries have had their populace spread throughout the world and maintained still their customs and language? Just one
How many countries were dispersed throughout the world and came back to the same country, the same language and the same customs? Just one.
How did the Tanakh know that it would become a nation again?
After 2,000 years, how did Israel once again become a nation? | JJ Travel in Israel - and this doesn't include the Diaspora.

I see it as a miracle in every sense of history and probabilities. Someone else will simple say "self-fulfilling". Who is right?

Reminds me of what Jesus said, 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Jesus rose from the dead and people don't believe that either.

I guess I believe a lot easier because of the miracles I have seen. :) Makes it easier to believe in the miraculous. As my testimony goes, "I was at a bar appropriately called Mac's Zoo Room staring into a Tom Collins and thought 'Where are all the miracles that I have heard about in the Bible stories?' Of course the only miracles in a Tom Collins that can be found is a next day headache or a pink elephant that night. But when I gave my life to Jesus, miracles abounded".
The plural of anecdotes is not evidence. I hate Gish Gallops. Why not bring up your claims one at a time?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Examples: A person has a cancerous tumor - then it is gone. Spiritual people say "a miracle" - non-spiritual - "spontaneous regression!" Who is right? Both have the same results.
Spiritual people believe irrational magic at work. Why? Because they hold irrational beliefs that they need to find any scrap of justyification for. If there was a real God at work in the universe there wouldn;t be cancer any more. THAT would be a miracle.

Let's note that many spiritual (religious) people understand that miracles are not real, and will accept plausible explanations. The "non-spiritual" must be critical thinkers who are well informed and not so gullible to religious ideas like miracles. It's bad manners (not a shock for Christians) to imply that the miracle believers are "spiritual", as if they are at some elevated level, and the rest are non-spiritual, as if tainted somehow.

Many religious people are not spiritual. And many atheists have a sensitivity and concern for others that some might suggest is what Christians are obligated to do if following Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Spiritual people believe irrational magic at work. Why? Because they hold irrational beliefs that they need to find any scrap of justyification for. If there was a real God at work in the universe there wouldn;t be cancer any more. THAT would be a miracle.

Let's note that many spiritual (religious) people understand that miracles are not real, and will accept plausible explanations. The "non-spiritual" must be critical thinkers who are well informed and not so gullible to religious ideas like miracles. It's bad manners (not a shock for Christians) to imply that the miracle believers are "spiritual", as if they are at some elevated level, and the rest are non-spiritual, as if tainted somehow.

Many religious people are not spiritual. And many atheists have a sensitivity and concern for others that some might suggest is what Christians are obligated to do if following Jesus.
So, as we can see, you are on the side of the coin that stands for not believing. I mentioned that and acknowledge that side of the coin. (or maybe a third side as stated at the end - edited/added)

So, as we understand it, there are going to be two sides to the coin (edited - if not three sides) of what we see and hear.

Within the context of our faith (signature)

IMO, there are those who are on the edge of the coin... seeking and trying to understand. They are neither for or against... just seekers of truth.
 
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