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Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
This coming from someone of which it has been proven, don't even understand what he is reading in the scriptures.
The doctrine of Paul is opposite of the doctrine of Jesus and you did not notice? Paul said he steals from churches. Do you believe Jesus would select a man that steals to be an Apostle?
Paul admits he lies about God to glorify him. Jesus would never select a man that lies about God to be an Apostle. So Paul is still a liar and a thief, changing the words of God after he said he converted. Paul still calls himself a Pharisee refusing to tell the temple he is a Christian. Paul even contradicts his own gospel. There are many examples, here is one...
Romans 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
This is saying observance, obeying the law, does NOT make you righteous in the sight of God. But then Paul said,
Romans 2:13
“(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
That is opposite, here Paul says you must observe the law, do it, to be righteous in the sight of God.
Jesus commanded water baptism removes sin and also said learn that I desire mercy and not sacrifice.
Jesus told people that if they want to kill him then they are NOT the people of God but Paul claims God wants Jesus to be sacrificed.
Paul preaches blood sacrifice, death of Jesus, removes your sin. Jesus tells us if we want him killed then we do not love Jesus or God.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's not about good Christian vs bad Christian, but rather, what is a Christian.
In the first Century - from whence Christianity originated, a Christian was understood to be one who followed Jesus' example, and teaching. Acts 9:1, 2 ; Acts 19:9 ; Acts 19:23, 24
(Acts 11:26) . . .it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians. . .
(1 Peter 4:16) . . .But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. . .
So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian? These are people who don't support social policies that help the poor, or help society be more loving by ensuring healthcare for all, who oppose gays being recognized and allow marriage, who support greed and the wealthy despite them calling themselves Christians, etc.? Some sects have become more liberal, like Methodists, Catholics, and Episcopal. These are accepting more gays in their congregation.


No please. I'm just stating what you seem a bit reluctant to admit.
Growing up, we hear all sorts of things, which we later discover wasn't actually the case.
So, why do people not apply this truth to so called Christianity? [/quote]
Are you asking why children reject their belief in Santa, The Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Monsters under their bed, but they then adopt ideas of Jesus being savior?

It is because society admits Santa is imaginary. Conversely society is highly religious and typically some version of Christian, and they all have adopted the idea that this basic God exists. Of course there are thousands of options of what this God is, and what the dogma that gets the person closest to what this God wants in the form of Christian sects. These sects can be very liberal, moderate, or extreme. But all claims the same salvation, they all claim a legitimate path to God, and they all will appeal to the mind set of various individuals. Some sects are more notable for being intolerant and bigoted, like Baptists. Oddly there are many black churches that are also Baptist, so we see this racial divide.

It may be called Christianity, but is it? Why?
Well it is apparent that Christianity is a huge theological buffet that a serves all type of people, and everyone saved despite the vast moral differences. So, it is "anything goes" theology.

If you can explain why it is Christianity, we will be able to take an objective look at whether it is or not.
I can show you, objectively, that it is not. It is a counterfeit - like fake money is, to the real deal.
There is no "one" Christianity that is easily defined, as I have explained above. At best Christians can give testimony what they think Christianity means to them.

I'd be very happy if ALL Christians really worked to follow Jesus, because there would be more decent people. I've heard a few Christians say they don't have to be kind or loving to others as an obligation because they are already saved, and works isn't required for salvation. WOW, talk about having your cake and eat it too. I noted that these kinds of Christians have contempt for their God since they seem to think they can exploit Jesus' gift of salvation by accepting it, and not having to live up to any moral expectation.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian? These are people who don't support social policies that help the poor, or help society be more loving by ensuring healthcare for all, who oppose gays being recognized and allow marriage, who support greed and the wealthy despite them calling themselves Christians, etc.? Some sects have become more liberal, like Methodists, Catholics, and Episcopal. These are accepting more gays in their congregation.


No please. I'm just stating what you seem a bit reluctant to admit.
Growing up, we hear all sorts of things, which we later discover wasn't actually the case.
So, why do people not apply this truth to so called Christianity?
Are you asking why children reject their belief in Santa, The Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Monsters under their bed, but they then adopt ideas of Jesus being savior?

It is because society admits Santa is imaginary. Conversely society is highly religious and typically some version of Christian, and they all have adopted the idea that this basic God exists. Of course there are thousands of options of what this God is, and what the dogma that gets the person closest to what this God wants in the form of Christian sects. These sects can be very liberal, moderate, or extreme. But all claims the same salvation, they all claim a legitimate path to God, and they all will appeal to the mind set of various individuals. Some sects are more notable for being intolerant and bigoted, like Baptists. Oddly there are many black churches that are also Baptist, so we see this racial divide.


Well it is apparent that Christianity is a huge theological buffet that a serves all type of people, and everyone saved despite the vast moral differences. So, it is "anything goes" theology.


There is no "one" Christianity that is easily defined, as I have explained above. At best Christians can give testimony what they think Christianity means to them.

I'd be very happy if ALL Christians really worked to follow Jesus, because there would be more decent people. I've heard a few Christians say they don't have to be kind or loving to others as an obligation because they are already saved, and works isn't required for salvation. WOW, talk about having your cake and eat it too. I noted that these kinds of Christians have contempt for their God since they seem to think they can exploit Jesus' gift of salvation by accepting it, and not having to live up to any moral expectation.[/QUOTE]
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Jesus said his path is narrow and few find it. Most people that call themselves Christians never found the path to follow what Jesus taught. Jesus said "learn I desire mercy and not sacrifice" but people just can not learn it to save their lives.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Jesus said his path is narrow and few find it. Most people that call themselves Christians never found the path to follow what Jesus taught. Jesus said "learn I desire mercy and not sacrifice" but people just can not learn it to save their lives.
Tell us what you think this narrow path is. Are you on this narrow path? If so, explain how you believe this to be the case. If not, explain why.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The doctrine of Paul is opposite of the doctrine of Jesus and you did not notice? Paul said he steals from churches. Do you believe Jesus would select a man that steals to be an Apostle?
Paul admits he lies about God to glorify him. Jesus would never select a man that lies about God to be an Apostle. So Paul is still a liar and a thief, changing the words of God after he said he converted. Paul still calls himself a Pharisee refusing to tell the temple he is a Christian. Paul even contradicts his own gospel. There are many examples, here is one...
Romans 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
This is saying observance, obeying the law, does NOT make you righteous in the sight of God. But then Paul said,
Romans 2:13
“(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
That is opposite, here Paul says you must observe the law, do it, to be righteous in the sight of God.
Jesus commanded water baptism removes sin and also said learn that I desire mercy and not sacrifice.
Jesus told people that if they want to kill him then they are NOT the people of God but Paul claims God wants Jesus to be sacrificed.
Paul preaches blood sacrifice, death of Jesus, removes your sin. Jesus tells us if we want him killed then we do not love Jesus or God.
More false claims? Do you have anything beside, your misunderstanding viewpoint? Scripture would be good, for a change. Right now, you only present your clearly unscriptural view.

I notice you keep repeating the same thing though.
I can only imagine one reason why you would be doing that. I can't say though.
Perhaps you can tell us why?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian?
This is not about me, so pleas\e do not try to make it personal, as though it's a personal view. It is not.
If you truly believe in objective evidence, then please demonstrate it.
If you take papers to the magistrate in your case, and you present them with your fathers signature, stating that the house belongs to you, regardless how many family members say... "bu... bu.. but, your honor, our father decided that we share the house, and we are all one, and the same..." the magistrate will go, by what... your brothers words, or the will?
So please, Jesus died. his followers died, but we have the "will". The fair individual will go by that. I go by that. It's not about me. It's about what the record says.
It says Christianity today is not true Christianity. Read the "will". It's available for all to read.
Some people try to find a means to 'cop out'. That's not what you are doing, are you?

These are people who don't support social policies that help the poor, or help society be more loving by ensuring healthcare for all, who oppose gays being recognized and allow marriage, who support greed and the wealthy despite them calling themselves Christians, etc.? Some sects have become more liberal, like Methodists, Catholics, and Episcopal. These are accepting more gays in their congregation.
Sorry, I miss your point. Do you mind making it clear? What are you trying to convey here?

Are you asking why children reject their belief in Santa, The Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Monsters under their bed, but they then adopt ideas of Jesus being savior?

It is because society admits Santa is imaginary. Conversely society is highly religious and typically some version of Christian, and they all have adopted the idea that this basic God exists. Of course there are thousands of options of what this God is, and what the dogma that gets the person closest to what this God wants in the form of Christian sects. These sects can be very liberal, moderate, or extreme. But all claims the same salvation, they all claim a legitimate path to God, and they all will appeal to the mind set of various individuals. Some sects are more notable for being intolerant and bigoted, like Baptists. Oddly there are many black churches that are also Baptist, so we see this racial divide.
Sorry, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say. The only thing I am seeing, correct me if I am reading you wrong, is that since religious people claim to believe in some God, and they are divided, then that gives me a basis for not believing that there is actually any truth of God, or the Bible.
I hope that's not what you are saying, because that's the kind of 'cop out' I was referring to... the one where people lump everone into the same basket, so they can say, "Ah. See! God can't even clearly teach or unite people." ...and things of that sort.

Reasonable people understand that companies carry different names for the purpose of identifying them apart from other companies, and their policies differ. Likewise, different religions carry different names for the purpose of identifying them apart.
Referring back to the first century, everyone belonging to the Way, was targeted for persecution. Yet, they were a unite group, not only in Jerusalem, but wherever they were.
(Acts 2:44-47) 44 All those who became believers were together and had everything in common, 45 and they were selling their possessions and properties and distributing the proceeds to all, according to what each one needed. 46 And day after day they were in constant attendance in the temple with a united purpose, and they took their meals in different homes and shared their food with great rejoicing and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to add to them daily those being saved.
The Christians were identified for the love their had among themselves, and their ministry which they carried out throughout the then known world, as well as their staying separate from the world.

What would you say about a group that is not divided racially, nationally, or even doctrinally, wherever they live in the world?

Well it is apparent that Christianity is a huge theological buffet that a serves all type of people, and everyone saved despite the vast moral differences. So, it is "anything goes" theology.
Ah. there it is. I was right then.

There is no "one" Christianity that is easily defined, as I have explained above. At best Christians can give testimony what they think Christianity means to them.
Not looking at things objectively leads one to this conclusion.

I'd be very happy if ALL Christians really worked to follow Jesus, because there would be more decent people. I've heard a few Christians say they don't have to be kind or loving to others as an obligation because they are already saved, and works isn't required for salvation. WOW, talk about having your cake and eat it too. I noted that these kinds of Christians have contempt for their God since they seem to think they can exploit Jesus' gift of salvation by accepting it, and not having to live up to any moral expectation.
All Christians do work to follow Jesus, and indeed they are known collectively as decent people.
In fact, since they are no part of the world, and not involved in political struggles, they get along with each other, in love, no matter which corner of the earth they reside.
They are a united brotherhood, and they follow Christ in those areas I mentioned earlier.

So, you should be happy. :)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This is not about me, so pleas\e do not try to make it personal, as though it's a personal view. It is not.
If you truly believe in objective evidence, then please demonstrate it.
If you take papers to the magistrate in your case, and you present them with your fathers signature, stating that the house belongs to you, regardless how many family members say... "bu... bu.. but, your honor, our father decided that we share the house, and we are all one, and the same..." the magistrate will go, by what... your brothers words, or the will?
So please, Jesus died. his followers died, but we have the "will". The fair individual will go by that. I go by that. It's not about me. It's about what the record says.
It says Christianity today is not true Christianity. Read the "will". It's available for all to read.
Some people try to find a means to 'cop out'. That's not what you are doing, are you?
None of this answers my question:

So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian?

It's not a hard question. I'm asking for your opinion.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is clear to me, you don't get it at all.
First, you talk about the last week. then you talk about Palm Sunday.
Either I am confused, or you don't know what it is you arte talking about.
Perhaps you will make up your mind at some point.

Whether it's Palm Sunday... I will substitute that with Passover, or the last week... I will take that as the week of the Passover, the scriptures tell us exactly what happened - Matthew 26-28 ; Mark 14-16 ; Luke 22-24

As you can see, these accounts are quite long, and I have no desire to recount all the events that happened, which will take quite a lot of writing.
I see no problem with the accounts, so I think it's reasonable that if you have a problem with them, rather than keep silent, and ask people to tell you write a book, you lay your arguments on the table.

That's reasonable, is it, or do you prefer to make false statements about others?
Oh dear...... Palm Sunday was not only the first day that they were there, but the first day of the Jewish week.
And during that first day they were there, all they did was go sightseeing. I can't wait for your response to that!
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
None of this answers my question:

So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian?

It's not a hard question. I'm asking for your opinion.
I did answer. Just say you don't like the answer, but claiming I did not answer the question is to be either dishonest, or ... did you read the post?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Oh dear...... Palm Sunday was not only the first day that they were there, but the first day of the Jewish week.
And during that first day they were there, all they did was go sightseeing. I can't wait for your response to that!
The last week of the Passover 30 AD.
  • Jesus and his disciples enter Bethphage, where Jesus fulfills Zechariah 9:9.
  • Then from there, Jesus and his disciples enter Jerusalem, wher he throws out the merchants from the temple.
  • He later leaves, for where he is staying... I assume he has a place nearby... probably in Bethphage.
  • The next day, he returns to Jerusalem. Before arriving, he miraculously dries up a fig tree - teaching his disciples the need to remember to have faith, even when he is gone.
  • Again in Jerusalem, while in the temple, he is once again surrounded by the Pharisees, demanding him explain the meaning of him doing "these things". I suppose they were still fuming about the events the previous day(s). They got even more angry, when he used an illustration to describe their wickedness.

That certainly was a lot Jesus did, in two days. he probably was exhausted, and with his death approaching, that could have added to his exhaustion... like in my case.
That's only one Chapter - Matthew 26, and I am exhausted.

Surely you don't want me to relate the other day's events following these. That would certainly add to my exhaustion. :anguished:

The other accounts harmonize.
John says the crowd left Jerusalem to meet Jesus, when they heard he was coming. The Pharisees complained when they left... “You see that you are not getting anywhere. Look! The whole world has gone after him.” They cried. (John 12:19)

John does not tell us of the temple cleansing, and other details prior to the Passover celebration. However, Luke tells us about his arrival at Bethphage, and his fulfilling the scripture as he rode, and the people haled their king.
Luke also does not mention the temple cleansing, but he does mention the confrontation Jesus met, on returning to Jerusalem the next day.
He also mentions Jesus prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem.
Luke 19-21

Mark though, tells us that Jesus apparently did not do enough damage the first time he went into the temple. He had to repeat the experience, when he went into the temple again... Mark's account shows it was the second day of his arriving in Jerusalem. .
Mark actually fills in what Matthew left out - that is, where Jesus was staying. It was Bethany. (Mark 11:12-16)
So my guess was wrong. That's what happens when one speculates, and goes beyond the things written.
Always safe to stick with the record.

The third day is when the Pharisees surrounded him, demanding who gave him authority to do these things. o_O
This was while he was walking in the temple, teaching the people. Mark 11:27
I can picture the scene. Can you?
Just imagine the look on their face. LOL

Anyway, I like Jesus, need to rest. I'll do that now. :)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I did answer. Just say you don't like the answer, but claiming I did not answer the question is to be either dishonest, or ... did you read the post?
Yes, it doesn't answer my question. That you posted a reply does not mean you answered my question, which you didn't. To my mind when theists avoid answering hard questions it is like pleading the 5th.

You offered no specific opinion on the question I asked. You wrote words, but not a relevant opinion.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes, it doesn't answer my question. That you posted a reply does not mean you answered my question, which you didn't. To my mind when theists avoid answering hard questions it is like pleading the 5th.

You offered no specific opinion on the question I asked. You wrote words, but not a relevant opinion.
Then I suggest you glazed over the post, without really reading it. Or maybe you are like another Atheist on here, who gears their questions in the form of a loaded question, looking for a particular answer.
You won't get it.

...and no, the question is like abc 123... simple and easy for Christians to answer... which I did.
You just don't like the answer, and furthermore, you don't like the questions that come with the post, because of the position they put you in.
So the easiest thing to do, is what I have found Atheists do in those situations - distract.

If they don't use a strawman, they stall, and use an excuse to 'duck out' of the discussion.
It's obvious to everyone though, because while you normally respond to the each comment, that suddenly changes, and you pick one sentence out of the entire post, to stall on... and it's so frivolous.

I've seen the tactic on here a thousand times. No one is fooled that easily.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Palm Sunday? Never heard of that until recently. When was that in the first century?
Five days before that Friday Passover notice what the people did at John 12:12-13.
However, Passover does Not always come on a Friday as it did the year Jesus died, so there would be No Sunday 'Palm Sunday' each year.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
None of this answers my question:
So it's fair to say that contemporary Christians who don't follow the example of Jesus are not what you consider a Christian? It's not a hard question. I'm asking for your opinion.
Nominal Christians ( so-called Christians mostly in name only ) are the MANY found at Matthew 7:21-23
'Christendom' teaches traditions or customs of men as being Scripture but are Not Scripture - Matthew 15:9
This is why adverse judgement will start 'house cleaning' with the 'House of God' - 1 Peter 4:17
Christendom claims to be the House of God but in the light of Scripture it often shows her actions and teachings to be otherwise.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Nominal Christians ( so-called Christians mostly in name only ) are the MANY found at Matthew 7:21-23
'Christendom' teaches traditions or customs of men as being Scripture but are Not Scripture - Matthew 15:9
This is why adverse judgement will start 'house cleaning' with the 'House of God' - 1 Peter 4:17
Christendom claims to be the House of God but in the light of Scripture it often shows her actions and teachings to be otherwise.
Well if this is what the Creator designed it created a lot of waste. You'd think a Creator would create humans more spiritually reliable, and not just religious fodder to fill seats.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Oh dear...... Palm Sunday was not only the first day that they were there, but the first day of the Jewish week.
And during that first day they were there, all they did was go sightseeing. I can't wait for your response to that!
I wonder if sightseeing is the correct word to describe the crowd at John 12:9-11.
However, they wanted to see the resurrected friend of Jesus as mentioned in John chapter 11.
Because the crowd heard Jesus was coming to Jerusalem they took palm branches to meet Jesus and praise God.
- see John 12:12-19
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Well if this is what the Creator designed it created a lot of waste. You'd think a Creator would create humans more spiritually reliable, and not just religious fodder to fill seats.
Creator designed Adam with perfect health. Adam could live forever as long as he obeyed God - Genesis 2:17
Adam deliberately disobeyed his God, thus Adam lost his healthy human perfection.
So, Adam (Not God) passed down to us his sinful leanings ending in death.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, because we can't stop sinning we die.
This is why God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth for us to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
First: All of us would have the opportunity to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
Second: All of us have the opportunity to answer Satan's challenge (Job 2:4-5 )
Satan claims: ' touch our 'flesh....' (loose physical heath) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Jesus and Job under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.......................
I'd be very happy if ALL Christians really worked to follow Jesus, because there would be more decent people. I've heard a few Christians say they don't have to be kind or loving to others as an obligation because they are already saved, and works isn't required for salvation. WOW, talk about having your cake and eat it too. I noted that these kinds of Christians have contempt for their God since they seem to think they can exploit Jesus' gift of salvation by accepting it, and not having to live up to any moral expectation.

I find ALL genuine ' wheat ' Christians work to follow Jesus as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
It is the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians are Christian mostly in name only - Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 7:13-15
MANY are on the broad road (weed/tares) and FEW (wheat) are on the narrow road - Matthew 13:25
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Creator designed Adam with perfect health. Adam could live forever as long as he obeyed God - Genesis 2:17
Do you think this story is true? Or an allegory?

Adam deliberately disobeyed his God, thus Adam lost his healthy human perfection.
So, Adam (Not God) passed down to us his sinful leanings ending in death.
This story is really not good for the Creator literally. Adam "sinned" trying to get knowledge, so without knowledge Adam couldn't;t know consequences. So it was a set up by God for A&E to fail. If God REALLY wanted these two to obey it would have created them with adequate wisdom and discipline to obey the rules. God didn't do this. It created them easily tempted and gullible. Further God sent the serpent to temp them directly knowing A&E were not capable of resisting.

If we could stop sinning we would Not die, because we can't stop sinning we die.
Just as God created, right?

This is why God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth for us to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
First: All of us would have the opportunity to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
Second: All of us have the opportunity to answer Satan's challenge (Job 2:4-5 )
Satan claims: ' touch our 'flesh....' (loose physical heath) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Jesus and Job under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Does it matter? Since the whole creation of Eden and the sabotage of A&E we cannot really trust anything this God does. Plus, if this Creator did all this doing the best it can do it's sort of a screw up. If it wanted to create A&E to be obedient and create a paradise, well the God failed. With sin so prevalent, as per the design, the God then had to flood the planet to get rid of sin, well, that down;t fix a damn thing because sin kept coming back. So all those people and animals killed at the flood event were needlessly killed. Horribly. So then to fix sin again it impregnates a woman (rape?) to create a child that it then sacrifices to itself to pay for the sins of mankind? What a Rube Goldberg design. Good couldn't just use magic?

Christians really can't argue from a literalist POV. Using symbolism and metaphor is the only way.

BTW, killing Jesus dint fix much. People still sin like it's going out of style, and many of these folks re Christians. The irony festival.
 
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