The Future Of Israel

[Revoltingest]

So it wasn't because Ben Gurion stole the Ayatollah Khomeini's parking space.

That alone could do it.

Is there anything that I was taught in grammar school that wasn't a lie???

I recall one lie from elementary school....
Jews moved into an empty desert, & made it bloom.
(Teachers left out the Nakba.)

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Even if Israel were to give back every acre of land Palestinians feel entitled to, even if they were to cease the hostilities completely right now, even if Isreal bent over backwards to come up with some sort of arrangement that the Palestinians would find acceptable, do you really believe any peace achieved would be permanent?

..a lot of "if's" there..
It's almost like you are arguing that Israel might as well carry on with their unfair treatment of non-Jews,
and territorial expansion .. because their adversary will never accept their existence.

It didn't have to be like that .. but this is what we have ended up with .. Israel does not act alone.

I've heard claims that the Abraham accords, which Trump helped broker, were one of the most significant steps forward to facilitating peace in the Middle East in quite a while.

Peace for whom?
Wasn't it mainly a political move against Iran (Shia), by making a pact with a handful of 'sunni'
countries on the recognization of Israel?
What did it do for Palestinians?

In March 2021, a group of 18 US senators introduced a bill to aid the State Department in developing an appropriate strategy "to strengthen and expand the Abraham Accords and other related normalization agreements with Israel."

The normalization agreements were criticized by citizens of the four Arab states that signed the accords as well as many citizens of other Arab countries, especially because they failed to make progress resolving the Palestinian conflict. The criticism increased in May 2021 after violent protests erupted in Jerusalem, Hamas fired rockets into Israel, and Israel retaliated with airstrikes on Gaza. A Fatah Central Committee member said the Abraham Accords, were "one of the reasons" for the October 7, 2023, attack by Hamas on Israel.
Abraham_Accords - Wikipedia

I really don't believe that the Muslim world would ever allow Israel to exist peacefully in the long term. Do you?

No more than the oppressed in South Africa, would "allow" the apartheid govt. to exist peacefully.

And if that's the way it is where would you have them go?

Nowhere .. unless they wished to emigrate .. many of them are dual nationality, as I understand.

History has shown that there's no place on the planet that's ever been completely safe for the Jewish people.

Why? What is it that has drawn attention to Jews, and singled them out for persecution?
Why not some other race or creed?

Or put it this way: If, ultimately, they've decided that the safest place for them to is in the middle of a desert surrounded by enemies, including many calling for their complete destruction, I think that tells the whole story right there.

Nope .. the project was always long-term, and political.

And it actually is the safest place for them in a lot of ways, mainly because their sovereignty allows them to defend themselves.

Nope .. it's about power and wealth, and political dominance .. global dominance.

 

[Quagmire]

..a lot of "if's" there..
It's almost like you are arguing that Israel might as well carry on with their unfair treatment of non-Jews,
and territorial expansion .. because their adversary will never accept their existence.

That isn't even sort of what it's "almost like" (whatever that means).
It's "almost like" you're purposely misinterpreting my post and my intentions in order to avoid having to answer my question.

It didn't have to be like that .. but this is what we have ended up with .. Israel does not act alone.

And again: looks like you're trying to steer the conversation away from the points that I made.

Which tells me you don't have any sort of reasonable rebuttle, so you're just going to revert to a lot of diversionary tactics.

See, I'm not trying to win a debate here or push any particular narrative, I'm still trying to put together as thorough and realistic an analysis of the situation as I possibly can.

And I have to say, people playing the kinds of games that you're playing here ---- partially quoting posts, dodging questions, coming up with, IMO, ridiculous interpretations of my post and speculations about my motives in order to put me on the defensive and, what? Get me to stop asking questions? --- are making it a lot harder than it would be otherwise.

Peace for whom?
Wasn't it mainly a political move against Iran (Shia), by making a pact with a handful of 'sunni'
countries on the recognization of Israel?
What did it do for Palestinians?

In March 2021, a group of 18 US senators introduced a bill to aid the State Department in developing an appropriate strategy "to strengthen and expand the Abraham Accords and other related normalization agreements with Israel."

The normalization agreements were criticized by citizens of the four Arab states that signed the accords as well as many citizens of other Arab countries, especially because they failed to make progress resolving the Palestinian conflict. The criticism increased in May 2021 after violent protests erupted in Jerusalem, Hamas fired rockets into Israel, and Israel retaliated with airstrikes on Gaza. A Fatah Central Committee member said the Abraham Accords, were "one of the reasons" for the October 7, 2023, attack by Hamas on Israel.
Abraham_Accords - Wikipedia

I'll read through that when I get a chance.

No more than the oppressed in South Africa, would "allow" the apartheid govt. to exist peacefully.

Okay so trimming away the hyperbole, that's a no?

Nowhere ..

So you're saying you'd just as soon they cease to exist all together.

unless they wished to emigrate .. many of them are dual nationality, as I understand.


Why? What is it that has drawn attention to Jews, and singled them out for persecution?
Why not some other race or creed?

There's something really sinister implied in that question (and I would be interested in hearing your own answer to it, albeit It would just be out of morbid curiosity on my part).

But for the purposes of this conversation I'll go ahead and take it at face value anyway.

Short answer: because for most of their history in Europe they were an isolated community of non-Christians living in a fanatical Christian theocracy.

This made them subject to distrust, scapegoating for you name it, resentment (Jews weren't allowed to own property in most places and were barred from most professions. One profession that was open to them that Christians couldn't participate in was money lending. People don't generally feel a lot of affection for other people that they owe money to, and throughout human history one of the easiest most popular ways to wipe out your debts has always been to wipe out the people you owed those debts to).

Jealousy, perceptions of superiority: because of their tight family and community ties as well as their focus on scholasticism the literacy rate among Jewish people was much higher than that of they're mostly illiterate peasant neighbors.

This theme continued into modern times. In 20th century Europe Jewish people were vastly overrepresented in any places top tier professions like medicine, finance, and law.

It's always dangerous for any minority to be perceived as more successful or, for that matter, superior in any way to their neighbors: thinking the Tutsis in Rwanda, Chinese merchants and businessman in Southeast Asia, and several other minorities in several places throughout history.

And of course there's historical momentum: If something goes on long enough It acquires a life of its own and becomes a self-perpetuating tradition, even removed from it's original causes.

Nope .. the project was always long-term, and political.

I'm not seeing what that has to do with the part of my post that you responded to.

Nope .. it's about power and wealth, and political dominance .. global dominance.

Or this. At this point it's like you're just shoe horned random factoids in wherever you can.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..And I have to say, people playing the kinds of games that you're playing here ---- partially quoting posts, dodging questions, coming up with, IMO, ridiculous interpretations of my post and speculations about my motives in order to put me on the defensive and, what? Get me to stop asking questions? --- are making it a lot harder than it would be otherwise.

I wasn't aware of "playing games" .. I tried to make a serious reply to your post.
If you think that I didn't answer any question/point you raised, then ask again?

Okay so trimming away the hyperbole, that's a no?

So you're saying you'd just as soon they cease to exist all together.

Not at all.
Of course, just as in S.A. , if political power in the nation changes, there is likely to be repercussions
for the previous ruling classes. Yet white people and Afrikaaners still remain, with others emigrating.

There's something really sinister implied in that question (and I would be interested in hearing your own answer to it, albeit It would just be out of morbid curiosity on my part).

I know what you mean .. but I can assure you, I'm not interested in anything other than facts.
i.e. I'm not an anti-semite

Short answer: because for most of their history in Europe they were an isolated community of non-Christians living in a fanatical Christian theocracy.

Do you have any reason to believe that that situation is likely to re-occur any time soon?

One profession that was open to them that Christians couldn't participate in was money lending. People don't generally feel a lot of affection for other people that they owe money to, and throughout human history one of the easiest most popular ways to wipe out your debts has always been to wipe out the people you owed those debts to).

Mmm .. it's always ***** money, isn't it?

This theme continued into modern times. In 20th century Europe Jewish people were vastly overrepresented in any places top tier professions like medicine, finance, and law.

That might be a reason for the uneducated masses to be envious, I would agree, particularly if they perceive that they are being manipulated politically and financially.

And of course there's historical momentum: If something goes on long enough It acquires a life of its own and becomes a self-perpetuating tradition, even removed from it's original causes.

..but it isn't, is it? Not that I'm aware of.
For example, they are still involved with major finance globally, and have global political clout.
The holocaust was despicable, but is that the answer? To preside over a global financial system of usury,
when aware of the prohibitions in the Torah for their "brothers" ?

Are we not all "brothers" in some sense? Are we not all human beings?
Naturally, I've heard the argument from Jews AND Muslims that it is a "just" economic war to
behave in this way against perceived enemies .. but where does it all end???

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I would say that's a pretty understanding attitude for a leader to hold towards his nations enemies.

And I don't think it should be taken to mean that he agrees with that perspective.

Well he is pointing out that it’s a natural response that people will fight back when being colonized.

I think history is very clear on this but sure I do agree with you he might not agree with it but that’s just because he himself is the colonizer