They lost their life instantly then. In Biblical point of view, this "life" is death.
Yes, she gained wisdom after eating the fruit, because after eating she saw the consequences and also the serpent in true light.
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The Garden of Eden
- Thread starter DavidSMoore
- Start date
The fruit clearly the source of divine Wisdom - The Goddess Sophia is present in the story .. your attempt to bastardize the text reversing life as death is strange and desperate intentional misinterpretation.
and while I would agree that once they gained knowledge they saw the Serpent's true light .. they also saw the nature of the Trickster God who put them in an unwinnable contest .. then punished them for losing.
This is not about what you think of the story - not about gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding on your part .. this is about what an Israelite living in 1000 BC ~ the time when David took Jerusalem .. thinks about the story .. and to the Israelite .. there are many Gods in the Story.. and they are familiar with the identity and role of each of the players in the story.. and so one must approach the scripture from polytheistic perspective .... the perspective of the Israelite .. not from your perspectice .. or that of a modern Theologian .. who will tell you the same thing I am telling you
Who is "The Serpent" in the Story ? Is it the Tester of Souls - Ha Satan .. a very powerful God as we are told .. or is this another God ... Sophia .. on who's name the book of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs are written .. viewed as "The personification of Wisdom" - reverred and worshiped by the Israelites.
I think it is what the story indicates. And i think it is supported by this:
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24
There was no unwinnable contest. They could have easily done the right thing and for example asked from God, what does this mean.
I wouldn't call the serpent Sophia, acts too stupidly for that name.
I believe that there is a direct relationship between the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Church beginning with Constantine made Christianity the State religion.
Slavery existed in various forms is not only in Rome, but in Christian nations up until recent history. Slavery is allowed and regulated in the Bible and not prohibited. The only Abrahamic religion to prohibit all forms of slavery is the Baha'i Faith.
It is odd that the thread has devolved from a dialogue concerning the Garden of Eden that in reality never existed. There never ws an idealic human existence as described.
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KK .. um .. um .. Its so painful when people do this.. and .. because of this pain you have caused me, you should apologise for making me repeat what has already been splained to you.. (splained) to you.
"This is not about what you think of the story - not about gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding on your part .. this is about what an Israelite living in 1000 BC ~ the time when David took Jerusalem .. thinks about the story .."
Now .. is the author of John .. a fellow living in 2cnd century AD reading the story from the Perspective of 1000BC Israelite ? .. do you have the faintest idea what the perspective of 1000 BC Israelite was .. such that you can make such a claim ?
Then . there is the massive problem that the passage has absolutely nothign to do with the Eden Story .. Is a different book .. on a different side of the planet .. one having absolutely nothing to do with the other .. and especially if you consider what the story means to our 1000BC Israelite .. which is now your mission to find out btw .. to save me from further absurdity ..
"No Unwinnable Contest" you say .. giving no coherent explanation that shows some knowledge of the Story ..
So .. if you have leave your baby with your Sociopath uncle .. telling the 1yr old ... don't touch hot stove prior to leaving for the movie with your wife.. knowing that your Sociopath uncle will spend every minute you are gone trying to get baby to touch the hot stove.. so you not share some of the blame ?
Now in this case .. we have a completely innocent = 100% trusting human ... with mind like of baby we are told .. a blank slate .. knowing not good nor evil .. not having any idea that there is anything wrong with disobedience to God .. in one corner. In the other corner we have a powerfull God with great powers .. the greatest deceiver .. and you are telling me the baby has a chance .. with a straight face .. passing the giggle test ya figure ? I don't think you put mind that God gave you to task .. and that is the reason you were given a mind.
Second problem, with your wildly uninformed perspective .. not having the faintest idea what is happening in this story .. through the eyes of King David. Did God know the outcome of the contest prior to the completion of the contest ? (NO .. NOPE .. Nada .. Nema Nishta)
Ouch .. now what does this mean .. if God didn't know .. as obviously the story indicates .. that wasn't the All Powerful "Most High" God wandering in the Garden.. is a different God .. which brings up another problem in your understanding ... or lack thereof in this case .. that there are many different God's in the OT Bible .... one in particular which hopefully does not take offense to your insult.
Do you not believe that Ha Satan is real ? The "Tester of Souls" - Chief God on Earth ... such that you would willy nilly Tempt the Gods .. such a bold brave mortal. Thats something I try to avoid .. even if one doesn't belive in God .. it is still illogical to Tempt the Gods .. blaspheme or profane them, because what if your wrong that the Gods are real.
and talk about underestimating the Enemy .. Sun Tzu -- has something to say about that !? -- Do you really think the tester of souls is stupid ? .. going to show up in horns, red cape and a tail -- and expect folks not to notice ? Try not to run from this question as I am super curious of your thoughts.
If my baby would be an imbecile, with no thinking abilities, then maybe it would be a problem. Humans are not without thinking abilities.
If they would have been trusting humans, they would have trusted God.
I don't believe babies are a blank slate.
I believe God knew what will happen. And I believe God allowed it to happen, because He wanted to give freedom to reject Him, as He is not like earthly leaders that are against freedom.
It depends on what it means.
I wouldn't say so, even though I think he has done many stupid things. For example, went against all knowing God, by torturing Job, only to show that he is evil and doesn't know as well as God.
"Blank Slate" means easily influenced .. easily convinced .. easy to write on top of in context .. and we are not talking about a Baby but, Adam and Eve .. who by your own account are even more easily influenced than a Baby.
Your claim that Eve was not in an unwinnable contest is Busted - God knew they were goint to lose --- end of duscussion. Put them in an unwinnable contest and then punished them for losing
"if they would have Trusted in God" --- They did Trust in God .... What part of Ha Satan is a God is not sinking in ? .. what do you mean you believe in Ha Satan .. but depends on what that means .. You were told what this means "Tester of Souls" - "Chief God On Earth" - \Very Powerful God..
What part of what that means do you not understand ? I am starting to think you are intentionaly engaging in disingenuous oblivion.
Do you believe that Ha Satan is a powerful God .. a God with great powers .. tester of souls on earth his God given Title and Job description as the Bible tells us so.. Yes .. or No .. and if not then tell us what you think Satan is .. and why you do not believe the Bible.
In Bible there is only one true God and they didn't trust Him. They rejected God and accepted a message from someone stranger.
That is not what the Bible tells.
So you are saying there is only one God.. the use of the term "True" is redundant and thus lends only confusion to the issue .. sounding like a Muslim .. and their one true God .. which is not the same as your one true God .. or is it ? Which God of the Bible is the real God .... what is the name of this God ?
and what do you mean "that is not what the Bible tells" what on earth are you referring to ? you were told what the Bible says about Ha Satan .. .. what was saids that the Bible does not say about Ha Satan ... Is Satan a Son of God .. does he not have Divine powers ? What does the Bible not say ?
Christianity is the only religion in the world to end slavery, and it did so, not once but twice. Compare the history of slavery in Christianity to th history of slavery in other religions:
Buddhism - Buddhism for 2,500 years has never had any interest changing society. There was never a push for equal human rights or ending slavery. Buddhism concentrated on self enlightenment, not world problems, did not believe in absolute good and evil. No no movement to end slavery or make people equal under the law could begin.
Hinduism - A belief in reincarnation also kept the theory of human rights from developing in Hinduism. Today, in India, some 11 million are slaves. In addition, the caste system has, for millennia, kept the lower castes locked into poverty. Brahmins and higher castes have rioted to prevent any attempt by the government to aid the lower castes like the Dalits. Hindus insisted that the lower castes were paying off their accrued moral debts from previous lives, so they had earned their status, however terrible, Trying to improve their situation only injured them by stopping the karma they had earned.
Islam - Islam, a religion of the book, taught mercy, justice, and morality. However, Muhammad owned 40 slaves and said that Muslim masters were free to have sex with their female slaves. After the slave trade had almost ended under Christianity, it was reignited under Islam. Millions upon untold millions endured lives of horror as slaves until Christians nations forced Muslims to end slavery.
Christianity - The push for human rights developed because of Christianity. Christianity alone stubbornly insisted that each individual was of inestimable value, and the idea revolutionized the world.
The idea of the equality of human beings was introduced in the very first Christian documents. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" wrote St. Paul. Not a single Greek philosopher or Roman Stoic proposed that human beings were equal. In the ancient world, up to one third of the population were slaves. Slaves were regarded as less than human. Pliny had over 500 household slaves and many more thousands on his estates.
The only religion that stopped slavery was Christianity and Christianity ended slavery not once, but twice. Christians began attacking slavery even as Rome declined. Augustine thundered that slavery was “sin” even as the ancient world was breaking apart and Vandals were about to conquer Augustine’s city of Carthage. The church at Hippo once organized a raid and freed 120 slaves.
Slavery was first banned in Europe in the Dark Ages. Serfs replaced slaves, and, unlike slaves, they had rights, rights that grew stronger with every passing century. Furthermore, the nobility had obligations to the serfs. By 1520 Father Fransisco de Vitoria wrote that "all men are equally free; on the basis of natural liberty...their right...to life, to culture, to liberty." Even the greatest saint was equal to "a sinner or pagan in regards to natural rights." Vitoria has been called the father of international human rights.
In the Middle Ages, whole religious orders were formed to pray for, and collect money to buy back slaves from Islamic countries. This is stunningly different from the history of every other religion.
Slavery began again, in 1435 in the Canary Islands. The pope immediately issued the bull “Sicut Dudum” which proclaimed that anyone who owned, sold, or transported slaves was excommunicated, likely facing hell. The bull “Sublimis Deus” in 1537 reiterated the excommunication. Thousands listened; other thousands upon thousands did not. Human nature is flawed, sick with sin.
But soon Protestant abolitionists like Samuel Sewall and Jonathan Edwards sparked movements to end slavery forever. Quaker and Evangelicals organized antislavery movements that ignited the world. Hundreds of thousands and then millions rallied to the cause.
Alas, slavery exists today. According to the Global Slavery Index India has 11 million slaves. Afghanistan, Turkey - dozens of countries where people are still in bondage
This clearly an over statement of Christianity in history.Slavery as allowed and regulated in the Bible remain apart a part of history up until recently. Tribalism defined how each individual is cond=sidered in Judaism, Christianity and Islam
Selective citations does not justify Christian history and thousands of years of persecution, ethnic cleansing of Jews and other minorities by Christians,
Martin Luther write the blueprint for Hitler's solution to the Jewish problem.
Christianity in one way or another tolerated and promoted slavery as a matter of fact of history, and continuedin the co;omies like India up into the 19th century.
Slavery in India - Wikipedia
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What is a dogma, and what is the difference between dogma and other things like knowledge? Usually when people consult dogmas its because we're trying to understand what the people inside the church believe, however it turns out that dogmas can be misleading.
I think the original "Original sin" is to not be Jewish, because the atonement is what is supposed to fix that and bring everyone into fellowship. The dogmas surrounding it have somehow become impenetrable and confounding. I agree the explanation you give about Adam and Eve drawn from Paul's letters and from a million sermons is unsatisfactory. I think what we are taught as dogmas or as doctrines is some sort of analogue and not a practical understanding.
The reason why is unclear, but most likely it is because the average person is not trusted. If I look at all of the politics and all of the tussling to control the churches and the people in them and how they often are political appointees it makes a lot of sense to me not to share the internal knowledge with them -- or with me a protestant. I'd say its some kind if initiatory boundary to keep strangers from manipulating church or making claims to be the church. Somewhere in the Vatican is a book about it.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There was a reason God cast them out of the garden. It was because the tree of life was there also and He did not want them to eat from that.
Genesis 3: "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
You have a very narrow biased view toward other religions. The pot should not call the pot black.
At least Buddhism had a relatively peaceful history, and did have the millennia of a history tribal violence of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
God Created humans with a weak fallible nature if he did not want them to et of the tree God should not have put the tree there. Face it, Adam and Eve were set up doomed to fail. If God is truly the All-knowing and all wise God he knew exactly what would happening in advance,
I believe the reason for the myth of Adam and Eve is to explain why humanity and life is so imperfect, and prone to do bad things. It is assumed that God must have Created a perfect world without death, violence and suffering, Therefore Adam and Eve were setup to take the Fall and blamed for all the death, violence and suffering of humanity and life.
Itis unbelievably bizarre that God would blame two fallible weak humans for all the death, suffering and violence in the history of animal life and humanity.
InChrist
Free4ever
I agree, but would add that it also shows the consequence of sin and teaches —sin brings death/ separation from God.
People have kept for example a golden calf as their god. Such things really can exist and also be called god. When I say true God, I mean the one that is truly the God. Bible God's name is Yahweh.
Even if so, that doesn't make him a god.
being referred to as one of the "Sons of God" .. in context of the passage .. and the Bible in general .. makes one a God. In the case of Job .. the Setting is in Heaven -- some kind of celebration is happening .. the Sons of God are in attendence.
Already we are dealing with divinities -- is that not a God .. a being that can show up in heaven on a whim .. .. and in this case .. the God being celebrated ... "most high" God .. El Elyon if memory serves .. singles out one of these Sons of God ... asks him how is Job is going .. which is the Tester of Souls on earth .. this is his Job Title "Ha Satan" .. in addition to being one of the Sons of God.
what are you saying is a God here ? Even Angels are divinities are they not ? a God aleit one of little power. .. The Sons of God however have much more power and agency than the Angels.. so surely we must classify these divinities as Gods .. having more power and agency than the angels ... and regardless of what your definition of God is .. this was the definition of the Israelite .. in Solomons day .. and his is the only definition that counts. but what is your definition of God ?
Later on we are shown the great powers of Ha Satan -- and by these we must certainly conclude he is a God .. what more powers do you want .. and then on the first page of the new Testement .. find out he has powers over the whole earth.
YHWH
Thank you for naming your God .. for some strange reason none of the fundamentalists will .. nor the Jehovah's witnesses. a very strange thing. YHWH is an interesting God of the Bible .. also one of the "Sons of God" like Ha Satan, Marduk, Chemosh .. and a host of others do battle in the Bible to see who becomes Chief God on Earth. .. usurping the position of EL -- who remains in heaven .. head of the divine council .. God Supreme - Most High - El Shaddai - Father - Creator - God of the Patriarchs .. and so on. El has 70 sons .. Ea has some as well who do Battle .
YHWH once loses a battle to the War God of the Moabites .. .. but that is not the war and YHWH eventually Triumphs... Tough God to follow YHWH .. his commands are tough.. the God named Jealous are tough as well ..
YHWH is not the God of Jesus though .. and given our convo I had you pegged for a Jesus follower .. following the commands of that God.. as opposed to those of YHWH.