The Garden of Eden

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe you are in error. The word of God is not myth.

The Bible contains writings of MANY different genres: law, history, myth, songs, poems, legends... Each is valuable in its own way.

The fictitious genres are quite valuable because nothing teaches ethics and morals better than fiction.

I realize some people use the word "myth" to mean lie. That is not what I'm saying. Myth is a very powerful form of literature. The person who best argued the value of myth was JRR Tolkien in his essay, "On Fairy Tales." Here is a link if you are interested:

ILAS 2350 - University of Houston

uh.edu

 

[alf]

I believe there is nothing to indicate the author has inserted himself unless of course you are referring to God, who has a habit of taking credit for things he had other people do.

Can you give me a view of the world from a baby's perspective?


Give a view of the world from a child's perspective!


Or give me a view from the world of an old man, when he is retired and resting!
He is the representative of the 7th day described as the day when God rests.





You are gods, but you can't see that because you see your existence from a perspective of existence.
More specifically, time is an obstacle to seeing eternity.

For you, time is past, present and future.

Three "heads" of the time that scare you.

 

[GoodAttention]

Or simply, a location in a myth, a myth which teaches us important information about human nature.

The story is less a myth and more an allegory teaching us about nature itself, and the importance of water for human survival.

Given the number of verses dedicated to describing the rivers I would say the locations are important.

 

[Muffled]

The requirement for objectivity is basic if you want to support the claim of supernatural events from ancient text without provenance, The claim of the Garden of Eden is the there was a perfect world without death, suffering or sin, which is a virtually impossible claim to support. This is an impossible claim for the entire Creation account and Noah's Flood as described in the Bible.

I believe with God all things are possible so there are no impossible claims. It is an unproven claim which is something that can also be said for the theory of evolution.

 

[Muffled]

The word of God is often figurative, meant to teach a moral principle. Does that make you feel better?

I believe sometimes it is fictional as well but the differences are usually stated. For instance fiction is usually stated to be a parable. Truth sometimes has the Word "verily" prefixed.

 

[Muffled]

Can you give me a view of the world from a baby's perspective?
View attachment 94006

Give a view of the world from a child's perspective!
View attachment 94007

Or give me a view from the world of an old man, when he is retired and resting!
He is the representative of the 7th day described as the day when God rests.


View attachment 94008


You are gods, but you can't see that because you see your existence from a perspective of existence.
More specifically, time is an obstacle to seeing eternity.

For you, time is past, present and future.

Three "heads" of the time that scare you.

I believe time does not scare me but I worry about my spirit which may not be quite as holy as me and as me in the body death ends me but my spirit must go on.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe with God all things are possible so there are no impossible claims. It is an unproven claim which is something that can also be said for the theory of evolution.

The issue is not impossibility, but is their any independent evidence that Creation story, Noah's Flood and Exodus took place as described in the Bible, There is no independent evidence.

Your rejection of the sciences of evolution is based on an intentional ignorance of science

 

[Muffled]

The Bible contains writings of MANY different genres: law, history, myth, songs, poems, legends... Each is valuable in its own way.

The fictitious genres are quite valuable because nothing teaches ethics and morals better than fiction.

I realize some people use the word "myth" to mean lie. That is not what I'm saying. Myth is a very powerful form of literature. The person who best argued the value of myth was JRR Tolkien in his essay, "On Fairy Tales." Here is a link if you are interested:

ILAS 2350 - University of Houston

uh.edu

I believe I have not encountered any myths in the Bible although it is hard to tell exactly what Job is.

 

[Muffled]

The issue is not impossibility, but is their any independent evidence that Creation story, Noah's Flood and Exodus took place as described in the Bible, There is no independent evidence.

Your rejection of the sciences of evolution is based on an intentional ignorance of science

I believe there doesn't need to be any. What God says is true is true.

I believe I do not ignore science, but I am aware of the fact that there are no eyewitnesses except God.

 

[shunyadragon]

The story is less a myth and more an allegory teaching us about nature itself, and the importance of water for human survival.

The authors and compilers of the Pentateuch, the gospels, and the Church Fathers consider it fatual history.

Given the number of verses dedicated to describing the rivers I would say the locations are important.

The problem with this is large river systems like the Tigris Euphrates River system like the Nile and other illuvial flood plain systems with Deltas in there re multiple river channels that change over time.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe there doesn't need to be any. What God says is true is true.

Extreme circular reasoning without independent evidence.

I believe I do not ignore science, but I am aware of the fact that there are no eyewitnesses except God.

Yes, based on belief in ancient tribal literature without provenance and no independent evidence provided,

 

[Betho_br]

Interesting hypothetical speculative discussion on a mythical place that never existed,

By the way there is an interesting argument that the lost paradise has its roots in the paleo history of the Middle East. At one time the Middle East and Northern Africa was a lush paradise of grasslands. lakes and abundant herds of wildlife. After the Ice Age this paradise became arid and desert. The sea levels were rising, and all the tribes were driven into the river valleys to fight a turf war. No more paradise.

Joshua 24:3 New International Version
But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac,

Northern Mesopotamia, specifically areas like Haran, plays a significant role in the narratives surrounding Abraham and his family.

Rebekah, Leah, and Rachel

1. Rebekah:
- Rebekah, Isaac's wife, is from Paddan Aram, a region in northern Mesopotamia. Abraham sends his servant to find a wife for Isaac from his family in this area (Genesis 24:10).

2. Leah and Rachel:
- Jacob, the son of Isaac and Rebekah, travels to Haran to find a wife. He marries Leah and Rachel, the daughters of Laban, who is Rebekah’s brother. This account is detailed in Genesis 29.

- Balaam:
- Balaam is described as coming from Pethor, near the Euphrates River in Mesopotamia (Numbers 22:5). He is known as a prophet who has knowledge of Yahweh, indicating the spread of Yahweh's recognition beyond Israel.

Significance of Northern Mesopotamia

- Cultural and Religious Influence**: The narratives show how the patriarchs maintained connections with their familial and cultural roots in Mesopotamia, which was a center of early civilization and religion.

- Spread of Yahwism**: The presence of figures like Balaam who recognize Yahweh suggests that the worship of Yahweh had reached beyond the immediate descendants of Abraham.

These stories illustrate the historical and familial ties that connect the biblical patriarchs to Mesopotamia, underscoring the region's influence on their religious and cultural practices.

Ur of the Chaldees

- Traditional Identification: Ur of the Chaldees is traditionally identified with the Sumerian city of Ur in southern Mesopotamia. However, some scholars suggest an alternative identification with Urfa (ancient Edessa) in modern southern Turkey, due to geographic and linguistic considerations.

Urkesh and the Hurrians

- Urkesh: Urkesh was a significant Hurrian city-state in the Upper Habur region, flourishing between 2300-1800 BCE. Some suggest that Abram (Abraham) may have originated from this area due to cultural and linguistic similarities. The Hurrians had Indo-European elements in their language, which aligns with the name "Abram."

Biblical Context

- Genesis 14:13: This verse describes Abram as "the Hebrew" (haibri), living among Amorites in Canaan. This reflects his semi-nomadic lifestyle and alliances with local tribes.

Chaldeans and Migration

- Chaldeans: Historically, the Chaldeans were a Semitic group who settled in southern Mesopotamia much later than the patriarchal period, originating from northern areas. This aligns with the narrative of Abram's migration from a northern "Ur" to Canaan.

Scholarly Perspectives

1. Geographic Considerations: Identifying Ur with Urfa or another northern location fits the trajectory of Abraham's journey from northern Mesopotamia to Canaan.

2. Cultural and Linguistic Factors: The presence of Indo-European elements in the Hurrian language supports the hypothesis of Abram's origins in the north.

3. Historical Migration Patterns: The narrative aligns with known migration patterns of Semitic tribes from northern to southern Mesopotamia.

Neolithic complex of Göbekli Tepe

Is the Garden of Eden located in northern Mesopotamia? Did Abraham come from the descendants of the Garden of Eden?

 

[shunyadragon]

Why did God evict Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden? Christian dogma holds that God kicked them out because they violated his directive not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But that’s not the whole story. Here’s what the Bible actually says:

God didn’t want them to have both knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, so he threw them out to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life. So the moral of this story is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance that humanity had for eternal life by getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden and thereby no longer being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament was written-- except for the book of Daniel. That is the only book of the Old Testament that specifically describes the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise-- all four of those things.

Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what the world of biblical scholarship said about the matter more than 25 years ago:


There’s plenty of evidence from the biblical text itself that on the whole the Old Testament authors didn’t believe in the New Testament notion of the resurrection. Here’s an excerpt from the Psalms:

If God doesn’t remember those who are dead, then he can’t forgive their sins. If the dead are cut off from God’s hand, then he can’t resurrect them.

Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the author’s vision of the end of time:


What is most significant about the author’s words is what they do not say. There’s no mention of the resurrection of the dead, of the last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. But here’s what he says will happen:


That’s a description of farmers living in peace with the farmers of other nations. That’s not a description of angelic beings playing laudatory music in the vault of heaven.

In Zechariah Chapter 14 the author describes his vision of the end of time. Prior to that time the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city:


But God will appear and will battle against the gathered nations:


God will bring about the destruction of Jerusalem’s enemies. And what then?


What is the Festival of Booths? It’s a Jewish religious observance. So in Zechariah’s vision everyone who survives the existential battle for Jerusalem will ultimately be converted to Judaism. And they will be required to go into the city of Jerusalem every year to observe the Festival of Booths. As far as I am aware there are no Christian sects that observe the Festival of Booths.

And as in Isaiah there is no mention anywhere in Zechariah of the resurrection of the dead, of a last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. The visions of these two very well known Old Testament authors have literally nothing in common with the New Testament vision of the end of time.

The book of Job has the longest discourse on man’s place in the universe of any book in the Bible. Job’s life was destroyed. He lost his oxen and asses to the Sabeans. His sheep and servants were consumed by fire. His camels were carried off by the Chaldeans. His sons and daughters were all killed when a great wind destroyed the house in which they were dining. And finally Satan afflicted Job with suppurating sores that covered his entire body.
Job debates the cause of his plight with several other men and claims that he was wrongly punished. But at no time throughout the discussion is there any mention of rewards or punishments in the afterlife. At the very end (Job 42:1-6) Job confesses to God that he was mistaken about God’s purposes. God accepts his apology and returns to Job everything that he had lost-- in this life, not in any version of an afterlife.

The Christian dogma of Original Sin holds that the terrible crime committed by Adam and Eve-- that of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-- has propagated throughout the entire human genome. As a result every human who has ever lived has been tainted with that indelible stain and is therefore utterly steeped in evil.
But as we’ve seen above, the story of the garden of Eden is less about the knowledge of good and evil than it is about eternal life. From what God actually said in Genesis 3:22, God would have been perfectly content to allow the humans to have knowledge of good and evil so long as they didn’t also have eternal life.

The doctrine of Original Sin is predicated on a complete misreading of the otherwise charming story of the garden of Eden. And it is one that has utterly warped the Christian understanding of human nature.

The bold is an excellent assessment of the impact of ancient mythology put in writing and becomes the underlying doctrine of warped religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Joshua 24:3 New International Version
But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac,

Northern Mesopotamia, specifically areas like Haran, plays a significant role in the narratives surrounding Abraham and his family.

Rebekah, Leah, and Rachel

1. Rebekah:
- Rebekah, Isaac's wife, is from Paddan Aram, a region in northern Mesopotamia. Abraham sends his servant to find a wife for Isaac from his family in this area (Genesis 24:10).

2. Leah and Rachel:
- Jacob, the son of Isaac and Rebekah, travels to Haran to find a wife. He marries Leah and Rachel, the daughters of Laban, who is Rebekah’s brother. This account is detailed in Genesis 29.

- Balaam:
- Balaam is described as coming from Pethor, near the Euphrates River in Mesopotamia (Numbers 22:5). He is known as a prophet who has knowledge of Yahweh, indicating the spread of Yahweh's recognition beyond Israel.

Significance of Northern Mesopotamia

- Cultural and Religious Influence**: The narratives show how the patriarchs maintained connections with their familial and cultural roots in Mesopotamia, which was a center of early civilization and religion.

- Spread of Yahwism**: The presence of figures like Balaam who recognize Yahweh suggests that the worship of Yahweh had reached beyond the immediate descendants of Abraham.

These stories illustrate the historical and familial ties that connect the biblical patriarchs to Mesopotamia, underscoring the region's influence on their religious and cultural practices.

Ur of the Chaldees

- Traditional Identification: Ur of the Chaldees is traditionally identified with the Sumerian city of Ur in southern Mesopotamia. However, some scholars suggest an alternative identification with Urfa (ancient Edessa) in modern southern Turkey, due to geographic and linguistic considerations.

Urkesh and the Hurrians

- Urkesh: Urkesh was a significant Hurrian city-state in the Upper Habur region, flourishing between 2300-1800 BCE. Some suggest that Abram (Abraham) may have originated from this area due to cultural and linguistic similarities. The Hurrians had Indo-European elements in their language, which aligns with the name "Abram."

Biblical Context

- Genesis 14:13: This verse describes Abram as "the Hebrew" (haibri), living among Amorites in Canaan. This reflects his semi-nomadic lifestyle and alliances with local tribes.

Chaldeans and Migration

- Chaldeans: Historically, the Chaldeans were a Semitic group who settled in southern Mesopotamia much later than the patriarchal period, originating from northern areas. This aligns with the narrative of Abram's migration from a northern "Ur" to Canaan.

Scholarly Perspectives

1. Geographic Considerations: Identifying Ur with Urfa or another northern location fits the trajectory of Abraham's journey from northern Mesopotamia to Canaan.

2. Cultural and Linguistic Factors: The presence of Indo-European elements in the Hurrian language supports the hypothesis of Abram's origins in the north.

3. Historical Migration Patterns: The narrative aligns with known migration patterns of Semitic tribes from northern to southern Mesopotamia.

Neolithic complex of Göbekli Tepe

Is the Garden of Eden located in northern Mesopotamia? Did Abraham come from the descendants of the Garden of Eden?

Redundant repetitious citing of the Pentateuch without prevenance without any independent evidence is far too circular to be real.

Independent evidence please that none of this is based on historical fact. There is absolutely no Hebrew test found before the compilation of the Pentateuch after 600 BCE. Alos there is no archeology evidence to confirm any of the above.

Remember the genesis account describes a mythical perfect world with no death, sin or suffering,

How could this ever have been the reality of a world before Adam and Eve? Independent evidence please.

 

[shunyadragon]

True. But it's still fun.

Yeah, the chain of Adam and Eve stores definitely exists with more revealing clothing than the mythical Adam and Eve,

 

[alf]

I believe I have not encountered any myths in the Bible although it is hard to tell exactly what Job is.

The story of Job is one of the best spiritual books.
The story is turned upside down, "I am" dies, where he sees 7 changes from a baby to an old man as sons, and the three temporal changes past, present and future as 3 daughters.
The three friends with whom he carries on a conversation are the eyes, the ears and the mind.

There is a world above the 7 worlds in which a person exists through the changes he experiences with his body, and with his "I am" he believes, which he bases on what he sees, hears and thinks-speaks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe I have not encountered any myths in the Bible although it is hard to tell exactly what Job is.

Because you are a fundamentalist who takes the whole bible literally, even when it is clearly figurative.

The creation story of the Navajo talks about an ascent through four different worlds, an insect world, a blue world with various animals, a yellow world of birds, and the fourth world, our world. There, First Man and First Woman were created, along with the Holy People.

I'm quite certain that you immediately recognize the genre as creation myth. Genesis 1 is also easily recognized as a creation myth for all the same reasons. The only people who think it is history are those who have difficulty managing figurative language and genres, and those raised in a literalist sect where everyone they know takes it literally.

 

[Betho_br]

Redundant repetitious citing of the Pentateuch without prevenance without any independent evidence is far too circular to be real.

Independent evidence please that none of this is based on historical fact. There is absolutely no Hebrew test found before the compilation of the Pentateuch after 600 BCE. Alos there is no archeology evidence to confirm any of the above.

Remember the genesis account describes a mythical perfect world with no death, sin or suffering,

How could this ever have been the reality of a world before Adam and Eve? Independent evidence please.

I do not interpret Genesis literally. As I explained on the forum, the first Adam mentioned in Chapter 1 is "physical-evolutionary," spanning the ages, while the second Adam is the first metaphysical being, the first to conceive the idea of gods, possibly derived from notions of spirits. Adam was a representative king-priest figure. In the Garden of Eden narrative, pain already existed, as Elohim stated that Eve's pain in childbirth would be multiplied, and death was already present, as they needed to eat from the tree of life to avoid dying, though this symbolically represents rituals and offerings to the gods, which ultimately occurred with their expulsion. The mystical account suggests that Adam failed to cultivate and guard the Garden of Eden, allowing the serpent to engage in a theological debate with Eve. Elohim conveyed the commands to Adam before Eve was created. In this debate, Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, leading her to believe that the tree in the middle of the garden was forbidden while the others were permissible, which facilitated her eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This mystical narrative implies that the first metaphysical humans cultivated the land for religious purposes, including offerings of animals and fruits, but not precisely sacrifices. Here lies the connection between the Genesis narrative and Göbekli Tepe, as no signs of cultivation or domestic animals were found at this site, Karahan Tepe and similar ones.

 

[Betho_br]

The story of Job is one of the best spiritual books.
The story is turned upside down, "I am" dies, where he sees 7 changes from a baby to an old man as sons, and the three temporal changes past, present and future as 3 daughters.
The three friends with whom he carries on a conversation are the eyes, the ears and the mind.

View attachment 94552

There is a world above the 7 worlds in which a person exists through the changes he experiences with his body, and with his "I am" he believes, which he bases on what he sees, hears and thinks-speaks.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and shunned evil Job 1:1

Job was an exceedingly devoted priest, proud of his righteousness (Job 32:1). The Hebrew Scriptures do not initially state that Job was righteous. Throughout the narrative, Job tirelessly seeks to defend his righteousness (Tsadic, tzaddik, or tzadik, in Hebrew: צדיק, "righteous"). This issue mirrors that of Abel, who, aware of the curse upon the earth, offered the firstborn of his flock as a sacrifice, and this righteousness ultimately cost him his life.

 

[shunyadragon]

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and shunned evil Job 1:1

Job was an exceedingly devoted priest, proud of his righteousness (Job 32:1). The Hebrew Scriptures do not initially state that Job was righteous. Throughout the narrative, Job tirelessly seeks to defend his righteousness (Tsadic, tzaddik, or tzadik, in Hebrew: צדיק, "righteous"). This issue mirrors that of Abel, who, aware of the curse upon the earth, offered the firstborn of his flock as a sacrifice, and this righteousness ultimately cost him his life.

You use enough Biblical references to defend a position that could reflect a literal view of most of the Pentateuch, which remains a problem as previously described.