I'm saddened by this because my approach to biblical texts is guided by a search for metaphysical teachings that are coherent with reason, logic, science, and archaeology. Instead of interpreting these texts literally, I seek to understand the philosophical and ethical principles they convey, without worrying about whether they are inerrant and infallible.
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The Garden of Eden
- Thread starter DavidSMoore
- Start date
The problem remain merit as described and not the question infallibility.
I'm interpreting your use of "merit" as questioning the validity or value of my interpretation. You're suggesting that using biblical references to support a specific position may not adequately address broader interpretive issues, such as coherence with reason, logic, and other fields of study. You're emphasizing that the merit of my interpretation should lie in its reasonableness and alignment with broader understandings, not just adherence to the text. Unfortunately, my resources are typically classic and sacred writings. I understand that this type of debate may not be your focus. That's fine.
It is not a question of "value" or what you seem to be describing here as the religious esthetic view of the beliefs of the Bible, You still appear to arguing for a place for an actual Garden of Eden,
I am not endorsing this; it is not my intention. Nevertheless, any location could be referred to as the Garden of Eden or simply considered a mystical place. However, what issue arises if a place called the Garden of Eden truly existed at the location depicted on the map? None.
GoodAttention
Active Member
My view has changed since contemplation and I do consider it closer to natural history than I do allegory.
Sure.
But this misses the point since the absolute and accurate location of the rivers themselves is not important, what is far, far, more important are the three ancient civilizations that had developed and existed along these river systems, being the Egyptian, Sumerian, and Indus Valley, at the time Adam left the Garden East of Eden.
Needs clarification. Do you now consider the literal Genesis account natural history?
I believe there is evidence more ancient settlements known older than the Biblical account of Adam and Eve.
WORLD’S OLDEST VILLAGES, TOWNS AND CITIES
necklace found in Mladec Caves, one candidate for the world's oldest village
It is likely that we will never know for sure what is the oldest city, oldest town or oldest village. It is probable that none of the settlements now regarded as holding these honors are in fact what they claim to be. There may be some as yet discovered site out there that is the true holder of the title. The evidence now available suggests 7000 B.C. as a likely date for the beginning of cities, which were the size of a modern mid-size or even small towns. The oldest known "villages" have been dated to around 30,000 years ago. The problem here is defining what a village is. [Source: Internet Archive, from UNT]
The growing of crops on a regular basis is believed to have given birth to the first long-lasting settlements. Historians refer to these settlements as Neolithic farming villages. Neolithic villages appeared in Europe, India, Egypt, China, and Mesoamerica. The oldest and biggest ones found thus far are located primarily in Southwest Asia (the Near East, or Middle East). The roots of farming began in the areas of present day Turkey and Mesopotamia about 10,000 years ago. Two of the earliest settlements are Çatal Hüyük and Jericho.
The settlement of Jarmo, east of Kirkūk in the foothills of the Zagros mountains in northeastern Iraq, dates to about 7090 B.C. It is located at the northeastern limit of the regions where ancient towns are said to have begun region," while Tepe Yahya in east central Iran (dated before 5000 B.C.) lies at the eastern limit. To the south and southeast, the limits are defined by the Arabian Desert, and the deserts of Sinai and Suez. The cities named above, except for Jericho, were abandoned before city living became common in the valley of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.
Professor Philippe Della Casa from the Institute for Archaeology at the University of Zurich has said for a settlement to qualify as a “town”, certain criteria must be met, including “centralized administration, complex planning and architecture, structured social organization and specialized crafts”. Many places that claim to be the world’s oldest village “belong to temporary camp sites, not to sedentary settlements”.[Source: Bill Harby, swissinfo, March 18, 2018 ***]
Do to the aridification of the Middle East and Northern Africa Neolithic humans moved to the river valleys like Nile and Tigris Euphrates.
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alf
Member
You think that Job is sinful because he became proud of his righteousness?
Your words are as Job's three friends speak.
I do not agree with the comparison you make of Abel with Job.
We have differences in understanding of what and who the two sons of Adam are.
After death entered Adam there was a need for a balance between life and death.
As death entered into life, so must life enter into death.
I am asking a metaphorical question.
If you are death what more will fill your emptiness?
1. A man who sends you emotions from his heart.
2. A man who makes a sacrifice - offers you life to fill your emptiness.
The first example is Cain, who nurtures and cultivates emotions from the heart (earth) and offers them to God.
The best example is the dogmas who send emotions to a god they don't see. In their hearts they have a sign-law.
The second example is Abel who "grows" life and offers it to god.
Cain kills Abel, or in other words, those who are driven by emotion spill the innocent blood of the shepherd.
This is where the story of Jesus will later come from.
This cycle is suffering for humanity.
Job talks about his emptiness and asks to go back because he did not deserve to experience the most painful and sublime state of the soul.
"Place" where man will meet god.
Job 40:8 NVI
“Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? (titsedaq)
"What is the difference between a righteous person, such as Job (ve-yashar וְיָשָׁר) Job 1:1, and a just person (ytsedaq), which he defends throughout the book?
The Jewish concept of a just person (tsadiq) is one who has absolute certainty, not mere belief, and who remains on the Eternal Path, guided by the logos (Greek) / dabar (Hebrew) of God. A prime example is Abraham, as explained in Romans 4:13-25."
alf
Member
I understand your point of view, but what you don't understand is death.
Tell me, when a baby comes out of its mother's womb, it experiences "death", because it passes from one environment in which it lived through a narrow passage to another environment.
To be clear, Job describes that passage, that narrow and painful place for the soul, describing the change he experiences.
Job's righteousness is like the beating of his heart, and it is not boasting but an instinct that pushes/pulls him to pass.
In the end, Job makes clear his mistake, which is that death cannot be described with words. 42:2-5
Just as food passes through the body and is expelled as excrement, so when a person experiences death, words come to him to write on paper.
That spiritual "excrement" should be buried.
Why read about god, when you should just remember your "death"?
And no one will teach anyone who God is, everyone will know him.
You are addressing the complexity of human experience, particularly with regard to suffering and understanding the divine. The metaphor of birth to describe death is a powerful way to illustrate the radical transition and transformation that occurs. You highlighted a crucial point about the limitations of human language when trying to capture transcendent experiences. It’s true that we often attempt to express what is ineffable, and despite our efforts, this may not fully capture the essence of divine experience. I agree with the idea that true knowledge of God comes not only through theoretical study but also through personal and transformative experiences. Deep understanding can often transcend academic knowledge, and indeed, everyone can achieve an intuitive understanding of the divine. However, all this should be examined through the lens of reason, ethics, and science.
GoodAttention
Active Member
This depends on how you define literal. I believe we box ourselves in by saying Genesis is only mythology or it is only literal we can miss the message. So, I would have to go verse by verse. For example,
Do I believe Genesis is correct to say the Earth (planet) was created before the Sun? No.
Do I believe Genesis is correct to say the earth (matter) was created before the Sun? Yes.
"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth", to me reads, at the beginning, God created time, space, and matter.
It then moves to the history of mankind, and I believe the literal Genesis 1 account describes humans being created well before the 4th millenium BCE when Adam left the Garden of Eden.
This would make sense since the scriptures do describe the existence of mankind before "God cursed the ground", and Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden.
This correlates with Genesis.WORLD’S OLDEST VILLAGES, TOWNS AND CITIES
necklace found in Mladec Caves, one candidate for the world's oldest village
It is likely that we will never know for sure what is the oldest city, oldest town or oldest village. It is probable that none of the settlements now regarded as holding these honors are in fact what they claim to be. There may be some as yet discovered site out there that is the true holder of the title. The evidence now available suggests 7000 B.C. as a likely date for the beginning of cities, which were the size of a modern mid-size or even small towns. The oldest known "villages" have been dated to around 30,000 years ago. The problem here is defining what a village is. [Source: Internet Archive, from UNT]
The growing of crops on a regular basis is believed to have given birth to the first long-lasting settlements. Historians refer to these settlements as Neolithic farming villages. Neolithic villages appeared in Europe, India, Egypt, China, and Mesoamerica. The oldest and biggest ones found thus far are located primarily in Southwest Asia (the Near East, or Middle East). The roots of farming began in the areas of present day Turkey and Mesopotamia about 10,000 years ago. Two of the earliest settlements are Çatal Hüyük and Jericho.
The settlement of Jarmo, east of Kirkūk in the foothills of the Zagros mountains in northeastern Iraq, dates to about 7090 B.C. It is located at the northeastern limit of the regions where ancient towns are said to have begun region," while Tepe Yahya in east central Iran (dated before 5000 B.C.) lies at the eastern limit. To the south and southeast, the limits are defined by the Arabian Desert, and the deserts of Sinai and Suez. The cities named above, except for Jericho, were abandoned before city living became common in the valley of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.
Professor Philippe Della Casa from the Institute for Archaeology at the University of Zurich has said for a settlement to qualify as a “town”, certain criteria must be met, including “centralized administration, complex planning and architecture, structured social organization and specialized crafts”. Many places that claim to be the world’s oldest village “belong to temporary camp sites, not to sedentary settlements”.[Source: Bill Harby, swissinfo, March 18, 2018 ***]
What you should picture in your mind is how a green Sahara and Arabian desert would have looked like, and then research online. This is a huge swathe of territory that would have been teeming with life, almost like an Eden (Paradise). It would certainly have been a paradisical environment where both food, and most importantly, water, was plentiful and easily accessible, in comparison to the desert wasteland it became over time.
Movement towards river systems, including the Indus Valley, and development of sedentary agricultural techniques would have been imperative for survival, and with that a cohesive social system, and also trade and economic growth. We know this because we have evidence of the Sumerians trading with the Egyptians and the Indus Valley Civilization.
Genesis 1 to 3 describe the most important and necessary factor required by life, and that is water.
GoodAttention
Active Member
Specifically the city Harran.
Indo-European is a misnomer, the correct term is Indo-Aryan from which there are known migrations into northern Mesopotamia. The Hurrian language contains Indo-Aryan elements, including names of gods.
The origin of the Chaldeans is not known. Whilst they are considered a Western Semitic people, it is unclear where they originate from.
To say this aligns with a nothern "Ur" is incorrect.
Whilst the location and direction is correct, the distance to be travelled doesn't signify a "great journey". Ur Kasdim should be considered to be a longer distance away, and far more "foreign".
Indo-Aryan as I mentioned above. If you want to look at cultural factors note the following in Genesis regarding Rebekah, Nahor, and Laban.
(1) Rebekah decides if she will travel with the servant to Isaac, not her father, brother, or mother
(2) Rebekah is called "sister" by her mother once she accepts to be bethrothed to Isaac
(3) Rebekah is gifted a nose ring and bangles made of gold by the servent, a very specific gift or dowry indicating an Eastern culture
(4) Laban mentions the giving of the older sister before the younger sister to Jacob, reminiscent of Milcah before Iscah
(5) Rachel sitting on Laban's idols when she is menstruating, which references an Eastern belief that a menstruating woman was forbidden to come close to gods/idols or enter a temple.
You need to read about the migration patterns of the time, specifically the movement of people during the 4.2ky event.3. Historical Migration Patterns: The narrative aligns with known migration patterns of Semitic tribes from northern to southern Mesopotamia.
Not in northern Mesopotamia, and yes he is descendant of Adam.
alf
Member
You agree with several statements and confirm them as truth, but you need to examine it through reason, ethics and science!
The spiritual is another dimension, which is not dependent on the time interval.
And it is interpreted as such.
A simple example.
"I saw two dragons fighting in the sky, one white and the other red."
Science will look for fossils, reason will look for physical evidence to believe in the spiritual interpretation!
The example talks about how summer and winter "fight" and change their places during a year.
It is the same with all spiritual books, the concepts are not what people understand.
If the months are called chieftains by name and each leads the army-minutes and defeats another army-calendar, science and reason will know it as the fall of a civilization, but the spiritual will not understand it.
Just as they did not understand Jesus about destroying the temple and raising it again in three days.
"Tear down this calendar and I will raise a new one in three days!"
The spiritual is above time, reason and science!
River Sea
Well-Known Member
What caused the trouble, and who was Nahor's son? What were Nahor's son's thoughts about the Garden of Eden? Due to within the Garden of Eden, never would this trouble happen? Does Nahor regret that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden and now deal with land of trouble?
@paarsurrey @GoodAttention North Pole?
Did the North Pole and South Pole exist during the Garden of Eden?
Was Garden of Eden only located in Pushkar, India (modern names to show location) that @Bharat Jhunjhunwala explained and the North Pole and South Pole weren't developed yet or was developed? How important were the north pole and south pole for the Garden of Eden to be paradise and no troubles?
Was the North Pole and South Pole also part of the Garden of Eden or not, if not, what would that area of the North Pole and South pole be considered?
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GoodAttention
Active Member
I strongly suggest to you @River Sea to first understand timeline.
Garden of Eden is a description about time approximately 4000 BCE. My opinion is, this is not a strictly literal place. It is part science, part history, and part poetry.
Others say it is a strictly a physical location, I disagree.
Nahor lived 2000BCE, so there is 2000 years difference. We need to separate the story first, then we can discuss effectively.
Time line is very, very, important.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The existence of the North and South Poles as geographic locations can be traced back to the formation of Earth's rotation axis, which occurred around 4.5 billion years ago when the planet formed. The concept of the poles, defined by the Earth's axis of rotation, has been constant since then.
However, if you're referring to the ice caps at the poles, their histories differ. The ice sheet over Antarctica has existed for about 34 million years. Permanent ice caps in the Arctic Ocean have existed for only about 2-3 million years.
Homo sapiens, aka modern humans, have only existed for around 200,000 years, 300,000 at the most.
GoodAttention
Active Member
If you are asking, did humans have an understanding of the North and South pole during the time the Garden of Eden is described?
I believe the answer is yes for the North Pole, but perhaps not about the South Pole.
No.
I see what you are asking now. Yes, at the time of the Garden of Eden it was toward the end of the African Humid Period, which relates to the cycle of greening and desertification of the Sahara and Arabian deserts. Two factors that can contribute to such a change are
Axial tilt - North and South pole can shift between angles of 22.1 and 24.5 degrees, causing seasons to become exaggerated.
Elliptical orbit - In simple terms, (and my understanding) there are times when the Earth is closer to, or further away from, the Sun. If it is closest to during the summer, then this can result in 8% more solar radiation, leading to monsoons which then feed the deserts, making them green.
These factors, when they line up, result in cycles of climatic change.
No, the Garden of Eden is referring to the time period when the Sahara and Arabian deserts were green. The North and South Pole are fixed, but the tilt can change.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
The point of the story is that humanity’s spiritual suffering stems from the prideful impulse to be God’s equal.
GoodAttention
Active Member
Christian view yes?