The Garden of Eden

[GoodAttention]

I thought the Indus valley only goes back to 2500 BC while the Garden of Eden appears to be before 4000 BC.

Here are some screenshots from Wikipedia.




You also have the Mehrgarh archaeological site.



From what we know archaedologically I would agree there is some extrapolation to consider the 4000BCE point in time, but it wouldn't be without merit.

 

[1213]

The snake is referring to God's statement to Adam (as reported to Eve) that if they eat the fruit they will die the same day

Ok, and I think they died, they lost their life with God that day.

It is also intersecting that some translations say it "dying thou dost die", or by "death you shall die". In Biblical point of view it can be said that this "life" is the death by which people die.

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
gen. 17:2

But they didn't, presumably because either they didn't know they could, or they knew they couldn't.

I don't think it had really anything to do with knowledge. The woman wanted to eat it, because she wanted to become like God. So, she was like common modern female politician, wanted to brake the glass sealing, to get high position. And the man ate because he wanted to please the woman. I think this explains also well why god then but man in higher position. High position should always be for those who care about others rather than to those who seek adoration and are selfish.

God had denied A&E the knowledge of good and evil.

The problem with that claim is, I don't think Bible supports it. For example the woman said before she ate:

And the woman saw that the tree was good for food
Gen. 6:3

How can she say something good, if she doesn't know what the word means?

Therefore it was not possible for them to form an intention to do evil.
Therefore at the time they each ate the fruit, they were incapable of sin.

I have understood sin is to reject God. Clearly they were capable of rejecting God.

And sin is NEVER mentioned, not even once, in the Garden story.

Maybe so. And maybe it is not useful word in any case. I think better would be to understand what righteous means and be righteous.

Of course there is. God expressly forbids Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ─ Genesis 2:16-17. Why in your view would God say that, if the tree was not the key to knowing good and evil?

I believe God said it, because He wanted to prevent pain and death.

Eating the fruit reveals that knowledge to them ─ Genesis 3:7

That is what the serpent wants you to think. I think he is a liar, as the Bible tells. The tree itself gives no knowledge. But, after eating, when you see the result, you will know the serpent was evil, because he tricked them to eat the fruit and caused their death.

 

[blü 2]

Ok, and I think they died, they lost their life with God that day.

If you want to write your own version of the story, no one's stopping you of course, but the text says nothing of the kind.

I don't think it had really anything to do with knowledge. The woman wanted to eat it, because she wanted to become like God.

"You will be like God, knowing good from evil," the snake tells her." and "she saw that the tree ... was to be desired to make one wise" (Genesis 3:6)

Leaving aside that it's only a folktale, do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing that humans can tell good from evil?

So, she was like common modern female politician, wanted to brake the glass sealing, to get high position.

Of course at the moment we have a well-known male politician running for the US presidency, who, if he ever knew good from evil, has found it very handy throughout his life to lay that knowledge aside.

And the man ate because he wanted to please the woman.

The text doesn't say or imply that. It simply says "she also gave some to her husband and he ate."

I think this explains also well why god then but man in higher position.

You really need to read what the bible actually says. Adam was made first, and Eve was made to be his companion and helper (2:18). But if you're looking for some justification to assert that women must be obedient to men, remember this is only a folktale. Nothing like it ever happened in real history,

I have understood sin is to reject God. Clearly they were capable of rejecting God.

At no stage do they reject God. I recommend you stop imposing your own views on the text and just read what it says.

I believe God said it, because He wanted to prevent pain and death.

Again, you're free to impose your own views on the text, but please don't pretend the text agrees with you.

That is what the serpent wants you to think. I think he is a liar, as the Bible tells.

Point to any lie the serpent tells in the text. I say there are none. If anyone told a lie in the story, it was God trying to frighten them by saying that if they ate the fruit they'd die the same day.

Notice that nowhere in the story does it mention sin, or original sin, or the fall of man, or death entering the world, or spiritual death.


And also notice Ezekiel 18, not least 18:20, which states unambiguously that sin can't be inherited.

 

[1213]

If you want to write your own version of the story, no one's stopping you of course, but the text says nothing of the kind.

I disagree with that.

"You will be like God, knowing good from evil," the snake tells her." and "she saw that the tree ... was to be desired to make one wise" (Genesis 3:6)

I think it is good to notice, it is the serpent, notorious liar who is telling that. God didn't tell the tree gives any knowledge.

Leaving aside that it's only a folktale, do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing that humans can tell good from evil?

Yes, and I think humans could have known them also before eating the fruit. However, maybe not like God, but like children. People could have gotten the knowledge by God telling, now we get it by experiencing it.

Of course at the moment we have a well-known male politician running for the US presidency, who, if he ever knew good from evil, has found it very handy throughout his life to lay that knowledge aside.

By what Trump says, he knows good from evil better than "democrats".

... assert that women must be obedient to men...

I don't say women must be obedient.

At no stage do they reject God. I recommend you stop imposing your own views on the text and just read what it says.

At the moment when Eve believed the serpent and rejected what God had told them, she rejected God. Rejecting God's warning is the same as rejecting also God.

...Point to any lie the serpent tells in the text...

Is he not saying they will not die? And are they still living?

Notice that nowhere in the story does it mention sin, or original sin, or the fall of man, or death entering the world, or spiritual death.

Death entered the world, because at the moment they started dying and were expelled to this "life" that can be called the first death.

But, I have no problem with not using the word sin. More important is what is usually meant with the sin. In this case it is called sin that they rejected God and went against His warning.

And also notice Ezekiel 18, not least 18:20, which states unambiguously that sin can't be inherited.

In this case it obviously depends on what is meant with sin. If sin means rejecting God, or being apart from God, then all people who are born to this death are born in sin, in separation from God. But, if we don't agree that it means sin, then I think we can as well not use the word sin and just tell that because of the choice of A&E, we are born in separation from God.

 

[blü 2]

I think it is good to notice, it is the serpent, notorious liar who is telling that. God didn't tell the tree gives any knowledge.

Nothing in the story suggests that the snake is a liar. On the contrary, the only ─ shall we say, misspeaking ─ is God's statement that if they eat the fruit they'll die the same day.

Yes, and I think humans could have known them also before eating the fruit.

The story is explicit that they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit.

By what Trump says, he knows good from evil better than "democrats".

I agree. He's been found guilty of rape by a jury, he's been convicted of deliberate and extensive commercial fraud, he's a notorious and automatic liar, he arranged the storming of the capitol, a vile blow against the US Constitution in which innocent people were killed, and more which we may learn from those prosecutions still pending. He's a master of evil, no doubt about it.

At the moment when Eve believed the serpent and rejected what God had told them, she rejected God. Rejecting God's warning is the same as rejecting also God.

The story doesn't say any such thing, but if it did, it would still be the case that she had no knowledge of good and evil because God had arranged things that way to protect [his] own position, and therefore could not form an intention to do wrong so was incapable of sin.

Is he not saying they will not die? And are they still living?

The snake's statement has a context that makes it clear that they will not die in the day that they eat the fruit

Death entered the world, because at the moment they started dying and were expelled to this "life" that can be called the first death. And they were never going to live forever unless they ate the fruit of the Tree of Life ─ and God's sole reason (Genesis 3:22-23) for expelling them from the
Garden was to make certain they didn't.

But, I have no problem with not using the word sin. More important is what is usually meant with the sin. In this case it is called sin that they rejected God and went against His warning.

Once again, at the time they went against God's warning, they were incapable of knowing good from evil, hence incapable of deciding to do evil, hence incapable of doing wrong / sinning.

It's all there in the text. There is no Fall of Man anywhere in the text, or in the Tanakh. Instead we have Ezekiel 18:20's clear statement that sin can't be inherited.

According to an article I read, the Fall notion is earliest found among the Jews of Alexandria c. 120 BCE practicing the Midrash tradition, where you take a biblical passage and imagine other meanings for it. Paul is the only NT author to mention it, and no one noticed it much until Augustine of Hippo c, 400 CE fell in love with the idea.

In this case it obviously depends on what is meant with sin. If sin means rejecting God, or being apart from God, then all people who are born to this death are born in sin, in separation from God. But, if we don't agree that it means sin, then I think we can as well not use the word sin and just tell that because of the choice of A&E, we are born in separation from God.
[/QUOTE]

 

[jimb]

I disagree with that.

I think it is good to notice, it is the serpent, notorious liar who is telling that. God didn't tell the tree gives any knowledge.

Yes, and I think humans could have known them also before eating the fruit. However, maybe not like God, but like children. People could have gotten the knowledge by God telling, now we get it by experiencing it.

By what Trump says, he knows good from evil better than "democrats".

I don't say women must be obedient.

At the moment when Eve believed the serpent and rejected what God had told them, she rejected God. Rejecting God's warning is the same as rejecting also God.

Is he not saying they will not die? And are they still living?

Death entered the world, because at the moment they started dying and were expelled to this "life" that can be called the first death.

But, I have no problem with not using the word sin. More important is what is usually meant with the sin. In this case it is called sin that they rejected God and went against His warning.

In this case it obviously depends on what is meant with sin. If sin means rejecting God, or being apart from God, then all people who are born to this death are born in sin, in separation from God. But, if we don't agree that it means sin, then I think we can as well not use the word sin and just tell that because of the choice of A&E, we are born in separation from God.

If Trump knows good from evil, why does he consistently choose to do evil? Do you think that someone who is guilty of sexual assault and 34(!) felonies is someone who should lead the USA? HOW CAN ANY CHRISTIAN SUPPORT A MAN DOMINATED BY SIN???

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If Trump knows good from evil, why does he consistently choose to do evil? Do you think that someone who is guilty of sexual assault and 34(!) felonies is someone who should lead the USA? HOW CAN ANY CHRISTIAN SUPPORT A MAN DOMINATED BY SIN???

It sometimes happens that a person may be aware that others consider something evil, but they do not have this awareness from within themselves, it's not something they themselves believe. This is why covering up a crime is not evidence that a person knows right from wrong.

As for why any Christian would support a felon and abusive misogynist? I haven't a clue. I think some of them successfully lie to themselves that the justice system is corrupt, and that 26 women can all be lying.

 

[1213]

Nothing in the story suggests that the snake is a liar....

"You won't surely die" was a lie.

The story is explicit that they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit.

How could then Eve say: "the woman saw that the tree was good for food" Gen. 3:6?

I agree. He's been found guilty of rape by a jury, he's been convicted of deliberate and extensive commercial fraud, he's a notorious and automatic liar, he arranged the storming of the capitol, a vile blow against the US Constitution in which innocent people were killed, and more which we may learn from those prosecutions still pending.

I think those are baseless accusations.

The snake's statement has a context that makes it clear that they will not die in the day that they eat the fruit

I don't think so, but even if so, one could say that also what God says means that they don't die instantly, but by death they shall die, meaning, this "life" is the first death.

It's all there in the text. There is no Fall of Man anywhere in the text, or in the Tanakh. Instead we have Ezekiel 18:20's clear statement that sin can't be inherited.

Genesis is a story of fall of man. It tells how man made a mistake. And we all are here because of that mistake. That event is called the fall, but I have no problem if you don't want to call it a fall. The important things is what happened, not what word we use for it.

 

[1213]

If Trump knows good from evil, why does he consistently choose to do evil?

What evil is he now doing?

Do you think that someone who is guilty of sexual assault and 34(!) felonies is someone who should lead the USA? HOW CAN ANY CHRISTIAN SUPPORT A MAN DOMINATED BY SIN???

Can you show me a Christian that says he is not dominated by sin?

By what I see, Trump is falsely accused.

But, I can agree that Trump is not perfect. I don't know any human that is. However, I think Trump is much better than the "democratic" alternative. "Democrats" act like tyrants and I hope they can't continue.

 

[blü 2]

Genesis is a story of fall of man. It tells how man made a mistake. And we all are here because of that mistake. That event is called the fall.

In the Garden story, and indeed in the Tanakh, there is no suggestion that Adam and Eve sinned or that as a result mankind "fell".

The ONLY reason God gives for expelling them from the Garden is set out in Genesis 3:22-23. It states that God was afraid A&E would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever and so become like [him]. That is, [he] was protecting [his] own position, NOTHING ELSE.

And why do you keep ignoring Ezekiel 18, not least verse 20 which reads ─

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

that's to say, sin CANNOT be inherited, so that even had the Garden story claimed that A&E had sinned, which as you see it never does, that could not affect their descendants.

 

[jimb]

What evil is he now doing?

Can you show me a Christian that says he is not dominated by sin?

By what I see, Trump is falsely accused.

But, I can agree that Trump is not perfect. I don't know any human that is. However, I think Trump is much better than the "democratic" alternative. "Democrats" act like tyrants and I hope they can't continue.

I can't believe that you and others can't see Trump for who he clearly is.

Trump is not "falsely accused". He has been convicted in courts of law for sexual abuse (which he also lost on appeal) and fined $5,000,000. He has also been convicted of 34(!) feonies.

He great admires to of the world's worst dictators: Vladimir Putin and Kim Jon Ung, and said that he will be a dictator on "day one".

Recently he violated the law by staging a political stunt at Arlington National Cemetery. (The same guy who avoided military service and called soldiers who were killed "losers and suckers").

He also said recently that people aren't eating bacon because of wind power!

Do you really want a deranged criminal -- the same guy who caused a insurrection when he lost the last election -- in the oval office??? If so, how can you call yourself an American?

 

[1213]

In the Garden story, and indeed in the Tanakh, there is no suggestion that Adam and Eve sinned or that as a result mankind "fell".

I think we don't need to use word sin, if it is too difficult to understand. It is enough to see that A&E rejected God by rejecting His word and that led them to separation from God. And it is the reason why all man kind is born in separation from God. I think "fell" and mistake is proper words to describe it, but I have no problem if you don't like to use the words. More important is what happened.

The ONLY reason God gives for expelling them from the Garden is set out in Genesis 3:22-23. It states that God was afraid A&E would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever and so become like [him]. That is, [he] was protecting [his] own position, NOTHING ELSE.

That is your interpretation. I don't think it is true.

And why do you keep ignoring Ezekiel 18, not least verse 20 which reads ─

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

that's to say, sin CANNOT be inherited, so that even had the Garden story claimed that A&E had sinned, which as you see it never does, that could not affect their descendants.

Ok, I have no problem to not call it a sin.

But, I think that scripture means, children should not be punished for what someone else did. However, children may have to suffer from the consequences of their parents actions. Like for example in this case of Adam and why we are here and not in the garden.

 

[1213]

I can't believe that you and others can't see Trump for who he clearly is.

It seems to me that you see only the left wing propaganda.

Trump is not "falsely accused". He has been convicted in courts of law for sexual abuse (which he also lost on appeal) and fined $5,000,000. He has also been convicted of 34(!) feonies.

Also Jesus was convicted. Being convicted does not necessary make person bad.

He great admires to of the world's worst dictators: Vladimir Putin and Kim Jon Ung, and said that he will be a dictator on "day one".

And yet Biden has by his own words been dictator also, and you don't seem to have any problem with that.

I think it would be useful to look what exactly did Trump say.

Recently he violated the law by staging a political stunt at Arlington National Cemetery. (The same guy who avoided military service and called soldiers who were killed "losers and suckers").

By what I know, you are misquoting him.

He also said recently that people aren't eating bacon because of wind power!

Please give source for this.

Do you really want a deranged criminal -- the same guy who caused a insurrection when he lost the last election -- in the oval office??? If so, how can you call yourself an American?

I don't think it is true that he caused an insurrection, because there is no evidence of such.

But, for me America should be the land of the free. Democrats are against freedom of speech, and therefore against the core of being American. It is sad if any American supports them.

 

[blü 2]

I think we don't need to use word sin, if it is too difficult to understand. It is enough to see that A&E rejected God by rejecting His word and that led them to separation from God.

As I mentioned, in the Garden story it's God who misspeaks, and the snake who tells the truth ─ they were not going to die in the day that they ate of the fruit, and they did not die.

Nor at any point in the story do they reject God. Instead, God, frightened that they might also eat from the Tree of Life and live forever like [him], rejects them, and drives them from the Garden.

And it is the reason why all man kind is born in separation from God.

The Tanakh says nothing of the kind, And as I understand it, if you're Jewish, you've always been able to pray directly to God with no need for an intermediary ─ just as Jesus does in the gospels eg in the Last Supper garden scene.

blü 2 :The ONLY reason God gives for expelling them from the Garden is set out in Genesis 3:22-23. It states that God was afraid A&E would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever and so become like [him]. That is, [he] was protecting [his] own position, NOTHING ELSE.

1213: That is your interpretation. I don't think it is true.

Then quote me the part of the story that shows I'm wrong. My view is based solely on the text ─ I have no desire or reason for it to say one thing or another. You apparently do wish it to say things it doesn't say.

But, I think that scripture [Ezekiel 18, particularly 18:20] means, children should not be punished for what someone else did.

It says plainly that sin can't be inherited ─ that the fault of the parent is NOT the fault of the child, and the fault of the child is NOT the fault of the parent.

Hence no one is born a sinner, in flat contradiction of Paul's references to the Fall, but not of anything in the gospels.

 

[jimb]

It seems to me that you see only the left wing propaganda.

Also Jesus was convicted. Being convicted does not necessary make person bad.

And yet Biden has by his own words been dictator also, and you don't seem to have any problem with that.

I think it would be useful to look what exactly did Trump say.

By what I know, you are misquoting him.

Please give source for this.

I don't think it is true that he caused an insurrection, because there is no evidence of such.

But, for me America should be the land of the free. Democrats are against freedom of speech, and therefore against the core of being American. It is sad if any American supports them.

It seems to me that you see only the right wing propaganda.

"Also Jesus was convicted. Being convicted does not necessary make person bad." Are you seriously comparing Donald Trump to Jesus Christ??? Trump has been found guilty of 34 felonies by a jury of citizens in a modern court of law.

Saying that "Biden has by his own words been dictator also" is total nonsense! What he actually said (with my emphasis) was "I have this strange notion, we are a democracy … if you can’t get the votes … you can’t [legislate] by executive order unless you’re a dictator. We’re a democracy. We need consensus.” Why can't you be truthful???

"Donald Trump, the former president of the United States who tried to steal the 2020 election, says he'll be a dictator on day one of a second term." source: The Atlantic

You wrote "I don't think it is true that he caused an insurrection, because there is no evidence of such." Were you asleep on January 6???? On January 6, 2021, the United States Capitol Building in Washington, D.C. was attacked by a mob of supporters of then-U.S. president Donald Trump, two months after his defeat in the 2020 presidential election. They sought to keep Trump in power by occupying the Capitol and preventing a joint session of Congress counting the Electoral College votes to formalize the victory of President-elect Joe Biden." After Trump said "I'll be right there with you" he did nothing to stop the insurrection that he caused his followers to commit, despite the pleadings of his family, his staff, his advisors, and others.\

Your claim that "Democrats are against freedom of speech, and therefore against the core of being American" is total nonsense!!!

 

[Argentbear]

The problem with that claim is, I don't think Bible supports it. For example the woman said before she ate:

And the woman saw that the tree was good for food
Gen. 6:3

How can she say something good, if she doesn't know what the word means?

The Hebrew text good used in this verse is תַֽאֲוָה־ translating as "pleasant to the eye" or attractive. The Hebrew for good as in ethically good is וָרָע.

 

[1213]

As I mentioned, in the Garden story it's God who misspeaks, and the snake who tells the truth ─ they were not going to die in the day that they ate of the fruit, and they did not die.

I think they died, they lost their life in the garden. And also, I think the accurate words means, by death they shall die, which means that this life is the death by which they will die, not that the death is instant.

Nor at any point in the story do they reject God.

When they ignored God's words and didn't ask from God, but instead followed the serpent, they rejected God.

The Tanakh says nothing of the kind, And as I understand it, if you're Jewish, you've always been able to pray directly to God with no need for an intermediary ─ just as Jesus does in the gospels eg in the Last Supper garden scene.

Even if people can pray God directly, people are in this world, in separation from God. Meaning, in the garden God was with the people, now we are not in the same place with God.

Then quote me the part of the story that shows I'm wrong. My view is based solely on the text ─ I have no desire or reason for it to say one thing or another. You apparently do wish it to say things it doesn't say.

The text says: "Behold, the man has become like one of us" (Gen. 3:22) and you say "God was afraid A&E would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever and so become like [him]". If they had already become like God, why would he be afraid of that? And in any case, Bible doesn't say "God was afraid", it is your interpretation.

It says plainly that sin can't be inherited ─ that the fault of the parent is NOT the fault of the child, and the fault of the child is NOT the fault of the parent.

Yes, and that is true. It is not fault of the children that people are born to this "life" and not to the garden of Eden.

Hence no one is born a sinner,

Sorry, maybe I didn't notice, but please show the scripture where Paul says everyone is born sinner?

 

[1213]

"Also Jesus was convicted. Being convicted does not necessary make person bad." Are you seriously comparing Donald Trump to Jesus Christ???

Obviously Jesus is much better. I meant just that it is possible people are "found guilty" and it doesn't necessary mean the person is bad.

Trump has been found guilty of 34 felonies by a jury of citizens in a modern court of law.

I think it was a kangaroo court, and not civilized trial and that is why I don't think it is very bad.

Saying that "Biden has by his own words been dictator also" is total nonsense! What he actually said

Biden: "“I have this strange notion, we are a democracy … if you can’t get the votes … you can’t [legislate] by executive order unless you’re a dictator. We’re a democracy. We need consensus.”

By his own definition, Biden is already governing like a dictator

Biden’s actions are the opposite of someone who preaches compromise, something a majority of the Democrats, Republicans and independents ultimately want.

thehill.com

And then he has signed countless number of executive orders. I think by his own words he is a dictator.

Were you asleep on January 6???? On January 6, 2021, the United States Capitol Building in Washington, D.C. was attacked by a mob of supporters of then-U.S. president Donald Trump

After watching the videos,I think it is ridiculous to call it an attack.

Your claim that "Democrats are against freedom of speech, and therefore against the core of being American" is total nonsense!!!

So, you think it is not true for example when Zuckerberg says the government pressured Facebook to censor speech the government didn't like?

 

[1213]

The Hebrew text good used in this verse is תַֽאֲוָה־ translating as "pleasant to the eye" or attractive. The Hebrew for good as in ethically good is וָרָע.

Interesting, Google translator seems to disagree. But, I think "pleasant to the eye" is basically the same as saying good. Essentially they it means the person thought it was good.

 

[Argentbear]

By what I know, you are misquoting him.

In 2018 Trump refused to go to the the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery, near Paris "Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.”