the golden calf in the bible.

[exchemist]

There are only 2 possible models of government, 1. Totalitarian dictatorships such as Fascism-Communism - Socialism and every other "ism" they're all the same.
2. Is Capitalism - Democracy. The first model is where the individual has no value or voice, he is nothing more than an expendable animal to be used anyway the government sees fit.
The second model is where the individual has infinite value, and he is free to choose his own course in life and the role of the government is to punish evil doers and manage all the government departments like defence, police, health, education, land management etc.

As you can see the first model uses people as their slaves and the second model facilitates people to excel and create wealth and security. This should be a simple choice but such is the power of deception that many have taken the poison bate.

None of that addresses the simple point that social democratic politics has been very successful in European politics in the postwar period, winning quite a number of elections. For instance the Scandinavian countries, which are models of stable democracy and have generally contented populations, have chosen social democratic governments, at the ballot box, on numerous occasions. Social democracy is largely responsible for the so called "Nordic model" of government: Nordic model - Wikipedia

These are market economies, with free enterprise, but with a quite lot of public services provided by the state, funded through taxation. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist over.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Whilst it's encouraging to hear folks like yourself know what's going on, the sad reality is your kind are few and far between. The elite thrive on the ignorance of the masses, most people can't see the big picture. Their world view is prefabricated and sold to them just like any other consumer product.

Many of my friends tell me they don't believe in conspiracy theories, when i try to share some of the facts regarding the new world order, globalism, agenda 2030 and the great reset. As long as the vast majority of people reject any alternative vies, these people will continue to gain more and more wealth and power.

The most effective way to control the masses is through fear, the idea is to create a crisis then offer the only possible solution and punish anyone who doesn't accept the scam.

Being distrustful of government has become a pretty South African thing (my country) because Apartheid as well as our previous government regime was super corrupt and we have loads of evidence to prove it. So generally we don not trust political parties. There are lots of people who believe in conspiracy theories but a lot don't care much for them but wouldn't be surprised if that is true.

We had a conspiracy theory actually proven to be true a few years ago where it was found that the government was being influenced by a family named the Guptas from India and they were paying off government officials to do their bidding in secret.

I don't believe in many conspiracies like the New World order and the Illuminati etc, largely because I haven't found sufficient evidence for them, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are proven to be true. When it comes to America there has been conspiracy theories that have been proven to be true, such as the Mafia controlling the government in the early 1900's, economic hitmen, the CIA and MK ULTRA, etc. The reason why I do things through this method is because I don't want to be lead on wild goose chases and end up accusing the wrong people because of a leap in logic, such as how the Jews were persecuted in the middle ages because people thought that they caused the Black Death.

I used to be a JW, so I know very much about being controlled through fear. It is a standard tactic of controlling the masses. MIt is very complex. You should read 1984 and Steve Hassans work on indoctrination. They explain a lot.

 

[Samael_Khan]

There are only 2 possible models of government, 1. Totalitarian dictatorships such as Fascism-Communism - Socialism and every other "ism" they're all the same.
2. Is Capitalism - Democracy. The first model is where the individual has no value or voice, he is nothing more than an expendable animal to be used anyway the government sees fit.
The second model is where the individual has infinite value, and he is free to choose his own course in life and the role of the government is to punish evil doers and manage all the government departments like defence, police, health, education, land management etc.

As you can see the first model uses people as their slaves and the second model facilitates people to excel and create wealth and security. This should be a simple choice but such is the power of deception that many have taken the poison bate.

Anarchism is a form of socialism though, which shuns hierarchy which I think is the best model. It is the end result of true democracy. The problem with Capitalism is that it provides an illusion of freedom, but it creates corporations as a means of control and they force the population to become wage slaves. Democracy as it is now is just the illusion of freedom apparently freedom is selecting who is your master whereas in anarchism there is no master, which is true freedom.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

So you can show that something has infinite value. I would like with reason, logic and evidence that you demonstrate this and not just write it with words.

Every person is infinite, that means everyone who has ever been born will spend eternity in heaven or hell. The socialists tells us that we are animals who die like dogs and that's the end, well that's a lie straight from the pits of hell.
God created mankind in his own image, God is infinite in every way and He created us to be eternal as well. So humans must be treated with dignity and not as animals.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Well, here it is. There are no political systems that in practice rely on a single, universal and absolute fact. Rather all systems are a combination of several factors, which they all weigh differently.

So if you take a part of one system and combine it with another, you in fact get a third system. But as long as you claim relevant for this debate that there are 2 distinct pure systems, which can't in fact be combined and it is either the one or the other and there are no 3rd system possible I can't help you.
You are doing in effect an assumption in your thinking of the following kind:
It is either X or Y and both X and Y are monolithic and not in effect both several different aspects in the everyday world. So it is not possible to observe combinations, because that won't work, because it is either X or Y in the strong sense.

So here it is: I am either advocated X or Y, because Z is not possible, because there is on X or Y in reality. The answer is no! You if look for Z and don't assume that only X and Y is possible, you can observe Z.
I can't help you that you are doing this: False Dilemma Fallacy
So you claim only X and Y, yet I am doing Z.

Regards
Mikkel

Good and evil do not mix, oil and water do not mix, light and darkness do not mix. you can't govern a nation effectively if you have 2 opposing systems pulling the country in opposite directions.

Many are trying but none will succeed in the long run. just look at all the worlds greatest empires from the past. They were all destroyed because they tried to mix X,Y& Z. America is the next to be destroyed for exactly the same reason as all the rest.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Anarchism is a form of socialism though, which shuns hierarchy which I think is the best model. It is the end result of true democracy. The problem with Capitalism is that it provides an illusion of freedom, but it creates corporations as a means of control and they force the population to become wage slaves. Democracy as it is now is just the illusion of freedom apparently freedom is selecting who is your master whereas in anarchism there is no master, which is true freedom.

The problem is, humans need a master to scare them into obedience. We also need educated men to tell us how to live and what to do and what not to do, we really don't want to go back to the law of the jungle where everyone does what's right in their own eyes as that means certain self destruction for the whole nation.

We don't want mob rule, like they have in some parts of South Africa where a mob chases down a person and beats them to death because someone accused them of stealing their cell phone.

Coperations are great for the economy, but we need a to give the President enough power to keep them honest. what we have now is the multinationals controlling the President so it';s has turned 180 degrees around.

The founding fathers got it right, then in recent times we saw politicians being bribed and they betrayed the forefathers and sold the country to those who have no allegiance to any country.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Every person is infinite, that means everyone who has ever been born will spend eternity in heaven or hell. The socialists tells us that we are animals who die like dogs and that's the end, well that's a lie straight from the pits of hell.
God created mankind in his own image, God is infinite in every way and He created us to be eternal as well. So humans must be treated with dignity and not as animals.

Yeah, that is your reality, but not mine. Let us stop here.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The problem is, humans need a master to scare them into obedience. We also need educated men to tell us how to live and what to do and what not to do, we really don't want to go back to the law of the jungle where everyone does what's right in their own eyes as that means certain self destruction for the whole nation.

We don't want mob rule, like they have in some parts of South Africa where a mob chases down a person and beats them to death because someone accused them of stealing their cell phone.

Coperations are great for the economy, but we need a to give the President enough power to keep them honest. what we have now is the multinationals controlling the President so it';s has turned 180 degrees around.

The founding fathers got it right, then in recent times we saw politicians being bribed and they betrayed the forefathers and sold the country to those who have no allegiance to any country.

Then stay with the USA and don't project to the rest of the world. And let the rest of us do social democracy and what not.
So let the rest of the world decide if we need a God, okay?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Every person is infinite, that means everyone who has ever been born will spend eternity in heaven or hell. The socialists tells us that we are animals who die like dogs and that's the end, well that's a lie straight from the pits of hell.

Or incredible thinkers like Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, who eloquently wrote about about how we should accept the dissipation of body and soul. If you look at the very foundation of Western thought, and not just 'socialists,' you might find that they did not default on this view of immortality that you have. They knew to focus on accepting the fact that reality means change, and coming to grips with this is more challenging and than the notion of hell

 

[Samael_Khan]

The problem is, humans need a master to scare them into obedience. We also need educated men to tell us how to live and what to do and what not to do, we really don't want to go back to the law of the jungle where everyone does what's right in their own eyes as that means certain self destruction for the whole nation.

Well in this case I am not saying that everybody should just do whatever they want. They would be living in a society and together those in the society would be voting for rules and regulations. Those in governmental positions would just be doing what we tell them to do. Nobody would be permitted to do what is right in their own eyes but what is right in the majorities eyes. Having a master in a society is handing over power to a man who will abuse that power.

We don't want mob rule, like they have in some parts of South Africa where a mob chases down a person and beats them to death because someone accused them of stealing their cell phone.

It is mostly not for such a mundane reason. There is mob action in those communities because our police are incompetent and corrupt. The mobs usually go after people who kill others, steal and rape because the system does nothing about those things, hence why we have such a huge crime rate. Usually what happens is that the accused is taken to the elders of the community and they judge them and give them a sentence.

Coperations are great for the economy, but we need a to give the President enough power to keep them honest. what we have now is the multinationals controlling the President so it';s has turned 180 degrees around.

You are assuming that the president would be honest in the scenario. Even without the multinationals controlling the president, history has shown that leaders do things for their own benefit unless the people hold them accountable. The people rising against the leaders forces the leaders to be honest otherwise they suffer the consequences. Corporations are good for the economy, yes, but the majority wont benefit from that high economy in the long run because the corporations will keep them down. And when corporations become too powerful because they become monsters due top their wealth, the corporations will inevitably buy the government and lead the world, which is what is happening now. Globalism is making this situation even worse. People should rather work for themselves and run their own businesses rather than work for corporations. They will be happier, more fulfilled in life and feel a sense of pride in their work and they will also reap the rewards of their work.

The founding fathers got it right, then in recent times we saw politicians being bribed and they betrayed the forefathers and sold the country to those who have no allegiance to any country.

From what I have heard of the founding fathers, they had pretty good ideas. Too bad America these days has betrayed their ideals.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Then stay with the USA and don't project to the rest of the world. And let the rest of us do social democracy and what not.
So let the rest of the world decide if we need a God, okay?

I wish you and the Europeans well, but history shows that the EU will collapse and Islam will take over Europe then you will see what a clash of ideologies produces. I have no mercy for the Europeans, you sold your birth right very cheaply.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Or incredible thinkers like Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, who eloquently wrote about about how we should accept the dissipation of body and soul. If you look at the very foundation of Western thought, and not just 'socialists,' you might find that they did not default on this view of immortality that you have. They knew to focus on accepting the fact that reality means change, and coming to grips with this is more challenging and than the notion of hell

Everything you know and believe has been spoon fed to you and every other person on the planet. So nobody discovers anything new, all we do is regurgitate what has been fed to us.
Now that we have established that very important truth, the burning question is did those who taught us everything we know and believe have our best interests at heart.
the sad reality is, the more wicked a person is the more convincing they are so we end up with a world where the vast majority have been programmed with false doctrine and false scientific beliefs.

A wise person will always pay careful attention to the motive of those who teach-program and indoctrinate us. we should find out what they base their beliefs on and if they have a vested interest in pushing their agenda. History shows that humans are like sheep, we are very easily deceived and the puppet masters can send us to war to kill our fellow man by convincing us that they are our mortal enemies.

God promised to judge every single individual alone, we won't have our political leaders to defend us on judgement day. We will all be punished or rewarded for our own deeds, and justice will be done whether we believe it or not.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Everything you know and believe has been spoon fed to you and every other person on the planet. So nobody discovers anything new, all we do is regurgitate what has been fed to us.

I have spent a significant amount of spare time reading or learning how to do things. Sometimes people innovate things a bit, oftentimes they build on things that came previously. So I don't believe you

History shows that humans are like sheep, we are very easily deceived and the puppet masters can send us to war to kill our fellow man by convincing us that they are our mortal enemies.

Well, history also shows that people are radically mutable. The whole story of the species seems to be one of inventively breaking out of stratifications

God promised to judge every single individual alone, we won't have our political leaders to defend us on judgement day. We will all be punished or rewarded for our own deeds, and justice will be done whether we believe it or not.

What do you think the reward will be, and how long until it makes you bored? Even an eternal reward would likely get tiresome

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Well in this case I am not saying that everybody should just do whatever they want. They would be living in a society and together those in the society would be voting for rules and regulations. Those in governmental positions would just be doing what we tell them to do. Nobody would be permitted to do what is right in their own eyes but what is right in the majorities eyes. Having a master in a society is handing over power to a man who will abuse that power.

It is mostly not for such a mundane reason. There is mob action in those communities because our police are incompetent and corrupt. The mobs usually go after people who kill others, steal and rape because the system does nothing about those things, hence why we have such a huge crime rate. Usually what happens is that the accused is taken to the elders of the community and they judge them and give them a sentence.

You are assuming that the president would be honest in the scenario. Even without the multinationals controlling the president, history has shown that leaders do things for their own benefit unless the people hold them accountable. The people rising against the leaders forces the leaders to be honest otherwise they suffer the consequences. Corporations are good for the economy, yes, but the majority wont benefit from that high economy in the long run because the corporations will keep them down. And when corporations become too powerful because they become monsters due top their wealth, the corporations will inevitably buy the government and lead the world, which is what is happening now. Globalism is making this situation even worse. People should rather work for themselves and run their own businesses rather than work for corporations. They will be happier, more fulfilled in life and feel a sense of pride in their work and they will also reap the rewards of their work.

From what I have heard of the founding fathers, they had pretty good ideas. Too bad America these days has betrayed their ideals.

I have no doubt you mean well and you believe in the rule of law but I would like to point out one thing I believe you may have not considered in any great depth.

You express confidence in the majority, I personally don't. I believe the majority has gone astray and lost touch with reality and the truth about who they are and what they stand for. I could rest easy if the majority had the right intentions and their heart was in the right place. The statistics show that the vast majority are only interested in selfish short sighted gains.

Every society gets the type of leader they deserve, if the majority were honest and decent people they would have a good and honest leader who would act in their best interests. But as it is, society is sinking deeper into depravity with every passing year and the leaders are becoming increasingly wicked.

A good government would be responsible, accountable and transparent, but we don't see such leaders anywhere in the world as all have gone astray and abandoned their conscience and their constituents. If we need to police our presidents, then that shows they were never trustworthy in the first place and the fact that they gained the office is a sign of a fundamental failure of the democratic system.

 

[metis]

The Israelites made the Golden Calf, and the Republicans made the Golden Trump, so I guess they're both on the same page.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

I have spent a significant amount of spare time reading or learning how to do things. Sometimes people innovate things a bit, oftentimes they build on things that came previously. So I don't believe you



Well, history also shows that people are radically mutable. The whole story of the species seems to be one of inventively breaking out of stratifications



What do you think the reward will be, and how long until it makes you bored? Even an eternal reward would likely get tiresome

I reject the claim that you discovered or learned or innovated anything at any time. You just opened up and and received what the feeder fed you,if you did discover or innovate you would be world famous, I'm not talking about designing a new ergonomic office chair, I'm talking about something new anything at all please.

Mankind has never broken out of any stratification's, he has always been sinking lower and lower and deeper into total depravity. This is proof that evolution is a big fat lie, the truth is mankind is in the process of devolution so everything we've been taught in school about this subject is a lie.

The reward for god's children will be the whole universe and all of it's treasures. You obviously believe the universe is quite small but I'm here to tell you it's quite big and God has put a lot of treasure in it for us to explore and find. It would take thousands of years to explore the universe, from one end to the other so we would forget the things we discovered 100,000 years ago so we would never get bored

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have no doubt you mean well and you believe in the rule of law but I would like to point out one thing I believe you may have not considered in any great depth.

You express confidence in the majority, I personally don't. I believe the majority has gone astray and lost touch with reality and the truth about who they are and what they stand for. I could rest easy if the majority had the right intentions and their heart was in the right place. The statistics show that the vast majority are only interested in selfish short sighted gains.

I don't disagree with you. The biggest problem to overcome with my view is that the majority of people are uneducated and unwise. That is why there is a theory that says that the rule of the majority can only be done once the majority are educated and have their basic needs met. And I do agree that the majority are short sighted, as they haven't been educated enough to use long term strategic thinking.

There is a good example of this where I work. The business I work for just split off from the main company and went on its own, meaning that there was a lot of base cost involved so the company had to be stingy with its spending. So it reduced costs and couldn't give benefits to employees at the moment. When Covid hit our shores and we went into lockdown there was a month when we had to retrench people (who mostly were people who were detrimental to the companies growth), and a month where we were not paid and for the rest of the year the boss had to limit our pay in months that we didnt reach target so that the company survived. For me and a the other people in finance and Marketing departments we understood logically why those choices had to be made because it was better for us in the long run. The factory staff who weren't well educated started complaining and became disgruntled saying that the boss was being unfair and that they were going to leave. The bosses choices saved the jobs of the majority in the company because of long term planning but if we had to hand over decision making to the majority then all of us would have been out of a job.

Every society gets the type of leader they deserve, if the majority were honest and decent people they would have a good and honest leader who would act in their best interests. But as it is, society is sinking deeper into depravity with every passing year and the leaders are becoming increasingly wicked.

This is true in many cases but is not the only reason why. I think that it is that the more trusting the majority are in their leaders then the more the leader can get away with. When we hand over more power to our leaders then the more corrupt they can become. That is how cults work.

A good government would be responsible, accountable and transparent, but we don't see such leaders anywhere in the world as all have gone astray and abandoned their conscience and their constituents. If we need to police our presidents, then that shows they were never trustworthy in the first place and the fact that they gained the office is a sign of a fundamental failure of the democratic system.

I fully agree with you here.

In fact it seems like both views of ours are valid in an idealistic way. They both work under the right conditions. If a good government is chosen then they can be trusted to produce the right results. If the majority of people have good intentions and are prone to long term strategic thinking then they can run themselves without a leader.

Maybe an inbetween is best realistically.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I reject the claim that you discovered or learned or innovated anything at any time. You just opened up and and received what the feeder fed you,if you did discover or innovate you would be world famous, I'm not talking about designing a new ergonomic office chair, I'm talking about something new anything at all please.

Mankind has never broken out of any stratification's, he has always been sinking lower and lower and deeper into total depravity. This is proof that evolution is a big fat lie, the truth is mankind is in the process of devolution so everything we've been taught in school about this subject is a lie.

The reward for god's children will be the whole universe and all of it's treasures. You obviously believe the universe is quite small but I'm here to tell you it's quite big and God has put a lot of treasure in it for us to explore and find. It would take thousands of years to explore the universe, from one end to the other so we would forget the things we discovered 100,000 years ago so we would never get bored

It's definitely highlighting a place where I can't agree with what I perceive as American styled Christianity, so to speak.

On a sort of unrelated note, though to make a relevant and salient point, I was listening to some Jordan Peterson today, and I have to contrast your remarks with his.. Are you familiar with him? It's remarkable that our continent produced Jordan Peterson, and that conservatives actually like his philosophy, when it's completely at odds with the general level of self denial you describe, on the 'worldly' level.

So what do you think about his admonishments to us for self improvement, are they actually representations of the golden calf of self-worship? I can barely see how it would be otherwise in light of your remarks, though 'the right' apparently identifies more with his feelings on the concept of order. I on the left, find his style of the 'right' more appealing more than I would yours, and I wish he would come out and describe how 'materially nihilistic' Christianity can get. Oddly, he never does: though I have read from so many Christians that share your general view

 

[night912]

I reject the claim that you discovered or learned or innovated anything at any time. You just opened up and and received what the feeder fed you,if you did discover or innovate you would be world famous,

There's a bunch of world famous people. Argument easily refuted.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

I don't disagree with you. The biggest problem to overcome with my view is that the majority of people are uneducated and unwise. That is why there is a theory that says that the rule of the majority can only be done once the majority are educated and have their basic needs met. And I do agree that the majority are short sighted, as they haven't been educated enough to use long term strategic thinking.

There is a good example of this where I work. The business I work for just split off from the main company and went on its own, meaning that there was a lot of base cost involved so the company had to be stingy with its spending. So it reduced costs and couldn't give benefits to employees at the moment. When Covid hit our shores and we went into lockdown there was a month when we had to retrench people (who mostly were people who were detrimental to the companies growth), and a month where we were not paid and for the rest of the year the boss had to limit our pay in months that we didnt reach target so that the company survived. For me and a the other people in finance and Marketing departments we understood logically why those choices had to be made because it was better for us in the long run. The factory staff who weren't well educated started complaining and became disgruntled saying that the boss was being unfair and that they were going to leave. The bosses choices saved the jobs of the majority in the company because of long term planning but if we had to hand over decision making to the majority then all of us would have been out of a job.

This is true in many cases but is not the only reason why. I think that it is that the more trusting the majority are in their leaders then the more the leader can get away with. When we hand over more power to our leaders then the more corrupt they can become. That is how cults work.

I fully agree with you here.

In fact it seems like both views of ours are valid in an idealistic way. They both work under the right conditions. If a good government is chosen then they can be trusted to produce the right results. If the majority of people have good intentions and are prone to long term strategic thinking then they can run themselves without a leader.

Maybe an inbetween is best realistically.

I'm not surprised by the state of the world, since I don't believe that humanity will ever produce good leaders. The bible says that every single person is born with a sin nature, so we will always gravitate towards corruption and treachery. This may sounds far fetched and radical, all the statistics, evidence and facts prove that it is true.

God said, in Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" Here God sums up the for every country and state. Our leaders are fundamentally wicked, so it's no supersize the people are angry with their leaders.

The whole of human history is soaked in blood, brother has been killing brother from the beginning of human history. This will continue to get worse until the Prince of peace returns to bring justice to the whole world.