The Golden Calf

[Ingledsva]

I have been long enough here to know it's a debate site. I understand that well and i respect any opponent in any debate in regardless of whether we agree or disagree. I have an issue with trolls


ING - I am tired of people like you that can't back what they say - calling me a troll for providing evidence against your claims!


and those who have absolutely no intention of providing any substantial evidence to back up their claims. For instance, if someone kept repeating himself/herself about something without willing to exchange evidence, then it is pointless to debate and any reader can easily see that.


ING - "Pointless to debate" is the usual answer I get when the person I'm debating can not rebut what I have said! I suggest you go back and read through this thread.

Through the posts i have seen which was directed at me, you merely kept insisting it's a pagan faith and you weren't willing to accept questioning your stance which is really frustrating. You must be willing to listen to the other side of the argument. if you just want to advocate something without the slightest desire to discuss it then no one will care to listen to what you say.


ING - That is baloney! I have to read the argument to rebut it. And what is that "without the slightest desire to discuss it?" We are debating - that is a discussion. You do not like my answers. Also - I did not call Islam a Pagan faith. ALL of the major religions come from a Pagan past. That is a fact.


If you need to engage in a debate then you have to know how debates are conducted. What you did was simply declaring yourself to be a winner by saying "Good try" without even validating or replying directly to what i said nor what i asked you in my post #124.

No such "winner" CRAP was put out there, except by YOU.

The "Good try" - referred to your attempt to derail what I had posted in # 122 where YOU SAID -

# 124 - "By the way, wiki islam site is not really islamic. Try to get your information from reliable sources."

Only one came from WikiIslam - Did you miss the rest, - AI-Tirmidhi related on the authority of Ibn Abbas. - Ibn Khuzaima and Ibn Habban, in their two Sahihs, related that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him,) - "Ibn Ishaq said, - etc.


Stop calling me a troll for debating what you have said!


As I said, I suggest you go back and read what you said - and my replies - in order - # 92, 94, 98, 111, 119, 122, 128, 136, 145, 149, and this one.


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[TashaN]

here you go

Noah in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thereupon, God decreed that a terrible flood would cover the whole earth and He ordered Noah to build an Ark which would save him and the believers from this dreadful calamity.


So you either believe god wrote this, or you cherry pick what you will believe.

One of the sources in Wikipedia point toward a book written by a scholar called ibn katheer, not the Quran itself. The other source as well is a book by an author called Leila Azzam but i don't know who is she, so it's an interpretation as well. So, even if it was mentioned in that book that the flood was global then it will be just the interpretation of that scholar. To ensure it's not just my opinion, i also searched online and found out that there is no universal opinion regarding this incident.

In fact, there is an indication in the Quran itself that there are indeed other people who weren't affected by the flood. Let me post it for you.

The word came: "O Nuh! come down (from the Ark) with Peace from Us, and Blessing on thee and on some of the Peoples (who will spring) from those with thee: but (there will be other) Peoples to whom We shall grant their pleasures (for a time), but in the end will a grievous Penalty reach them from Us." (Quran 11:46)

 

[TashaN]

No such "winner" CRAP was put out there, except by YOU.

The "Good try" - referred to your attempt to derail what I had posted in # 122 where YOU SAID -

# 124 - "By the way, wiki islam site is not really islamic. Try to get your information from reliable sources."

Only one came from WikiIslam - Did you miss the rest, - AI-Tirmidhi related on the authority of Ibn Abbas. - Ibn Khuzaima and Ibn Habban, in their two Sahihs, related that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him,) - "Ibn Ishaq said, - etc.


Stop calling me a troll for debating what you have said!


As I said, I suggest you go back and read what you said - and my replies - in order - # 92, 94, 98, 111, 119, 122, 128, 136, 145, 149, and this one.


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I wanted to clarify what was your objection but you asked me to go back and read what you said. i'm not allowed to ask you for clarification?

 

[TashaN]

ING, below is what i said earlier in post #124:

Are you referring to the black stone or the Ka'aba itself?

The black stone is said to fall from heaven, what is your objection?

When it comes to circulating around the Ka'aba, it's something which God has inspired Abraham to do way before Mohamed ever comes to the picture.

And yeah, it was there before even Prophet Mohamed was born, but it's not something related to paganism. I don't know where did you get the idea that it was pagan. Even before Prophet Mohamed appear in Mekkah as a Messenger of God, those who live in Mekkah did believe in God. They were basically polytheists, not pagans as some might believe.

By the way, wiki islam site is not really islamic. Try to get your information from reliable sources.

Can you please answer all so i'm able to understand your stance in a better way rather than saying "good try"?

 

[outhouse]

The other source as well is a book by an author called Leila Azzam

She has credibility, you do not.


If the information was wrong on wiki, it would be removed.


Start dealing with what your books say in context.

Noah in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The story of Noah, as told by Qur'anic verses

God commanded Noah to build a ship, the Ark, and as he was building it, the chieftains passed him and mocked him. Upon its completion, the ship is said to be loaded with pairs of every animal available that time, and Noah's household,[26] and 76 believers who did submit to God. The people who denied the message of Noah, including one of his own sons, drowned.[27] The final resting place of the ship was referred to as Mount Judi.[28] Noah is called a grateful servant.[19] Both Noah and Abraham were taught the prophethood and the scripture.


So I asked you if you believe in this flood or not, are you ducking the question or gods word?

 

[Ingledsva]

ING, below is what i said earlier in post #124:



Can you please answer all so i'm able to understand your stance in a better way rather than saying "good try"?

I already did. You will have to ask a specific question.


PS. Ancient Polytheism is what your religion, and the other major religions, call Pagan.





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[TashaN]

She has credibility, you do not.


If the information was wrong on wiki, it would be removed.


Start dealing with what your books say in context.

Noah in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The story of Noah, as told by Qur'anic verses

God commanded Noah to build a ship, the Ark, and as he was building it, the chieftains passed him and mocked him. Upon its completion, the ship is said to be loaded with pairs of every animal available that time, and Noah's household,[26] and 76 believers who did submit to God. The people who denied the message of Noah, including one of his own sons, drowned.[27] The final resting place of the ship was referred to as Mount Judi.[28] Noah is called a grateful servant.[19] Both Noah and Abraham were taught the prophethood and the scripture.


So I asked you if you believe in this flood or not, are you ducking the question or gods word?

Just because you believe in a theory, that doesn't justify pushing aggressively for it. You need to have the courage to have your beliefs challenged by others or you will never learn. There is no point for you to come here if you were not humble enough to learn from others even if you feel superior to them.

Where is the verse in the Quran which says it was global?

I have two sources, Quran which is God's words, and Sunnah which is Prophet's guidance, and everything beyond that can be criticized and be questionable.

There is no way in the Quran nor the Sunnah where it says it was a global flood, so there were many theories by scholars. Their opinions are not secret so you can look them up online or in islamic books.

some of them said it was global, some of them said local but since humanity were in one location at that time so they all were affected, and the other theory which i believe might be the most accurate one is that it was not global and also there were other human beings in other location who were not affected by the flood, and i gave you the verse to support my claim.

The word came: "O Nuh! come down (from the Ark) with Peace from Us, and Blessing on thee and on some of the Peoples (who will spring) from those with thee: but (there will be other) Peoples to whom We shall grant their pleasures (for a time), but in the end will a grievous Penalty reach them from Us." (Quran 11:46)

So, if you are brave enough to admit that you can't possibly know everything, you should accept what others try to communicate to you.

Read the above verse carefully, then do your research first before putting forward ridiculous claims.

 

[TashaN]

I already did. You will have to ask a specific question.


PS. Ancient Polytheism is what your religion, and the other major religions, call Pagan.





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You did where? my questions were very specific and you didn't answer them.

What is Ancient Polytheism? and what did they believe in? did they believe in one God? the God of Abraham?

The Polytheists of Makkah before Islam believed in God of Abraham, but they were also believing in other minor gods. So, Prophet Mohamed came to ask them to believe in one God, alone.

 

[outhouse]

Quran which is God's words
.

YOU cannot substantiate that. You only have faith.

There is no way in the Quran nor the Sunnah where it says it was a global flood,

Stop it.

So you have to pervert your own text to have it make sense??

007.064YUSUFALI: But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!
PICKTHAL: But they denied him, so We saved him and those with him in the ship, and We drowned those who denied Our tokens. Lo! they were blind folk.


011.044YUSUFALI: Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

011.037YUSUFALI: "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)."
PICKTHAL: Build the ship under Our eyes and by Our inspiration, and speak not unto Me on behalf of those who do wrong. Lo! they will be drowned.



So a boat rested on mount Judi, which makes it a global flood.

The boat was built to save a few, but the rest drowned.


So explain about this flood. When did it happen? Where did it happen? How did the boat get on top of a mountain?

Start defending your text.

 

[TashaN]

YOU cannot substantiate that. You only have faith.

You have to choose. Do you want to discuss the content of the Quran or you want to validate whether it's God words or not? both are two separate topics, we can't simply switch from one to another. It's very confusing.

Stop it.

So you have to pervert your own text to have it make sense??

:sarcastic I'm not doing so.

007.064YUSUFALI: But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!
PICKTHAL: But they denied him, so We saved him and those with him in the ship, and We drowned those who denied Our tokens. Lo! they were blind folk.

011.044YUSUFALI: Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

011.037YUSUFALI: "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)."
PICKTHAL: Build the ship under Our eyes and by Our inspiration, and speak not unto Me on behalf of those who do wrong. Lo! they will be drowned.

So a boat rested on mount Judi, which makes it a global flood.

Prove scientifically that a boat rested on a mount is an evidence of a global flood.

The boat was built to save a few, but the rest drowned.

Yeah? and how does that prove it was global?

So explain about this flood. When did it happen? Where did it happen? How did the boat get on top of a mountain?

Start defending your text.

I don't know. I know only what the Quran mentioned. I'm not concerned with other details. I leave it to scientists to dig up these things.

 

[outhouse]

I don't know. I know only what the Quran mentioned.

Correct you dont know that it was plagiarized mythology. The reat of the world does not have this problem.


Its funny how you avoid direct answers about your own text. How come you cannot explain your text?

 

[TashaN]

Correct you dont know that it was plagiarized mythology. The reat of the world does not have this problem.

Its funny how you avoid direct answers about your own text. How come you cannot explain your text?

You don't know what the Quran is. It's not a history book, it's a spiritual book, so i'm not concerned with your childish claims. You asked me if the Quran says it was a global and i proved based on the Quran that there is no indication that it was global, period.

 

[outhouse]

You don't know what the Quran is. It's not a history book, it's a spiritual book, so i'm not concerned with your childish claims. You asked me if the Quran says it was a global and i proved based on the Quran that there is no indication that it was global, period.

It sates there was a flood that killed people, and the boat ended up on a mnt Judi.


Explain in your own words just what happened so long ago.

 

[outhouse]

You don't know what the Quran is. It's not a history book, .

Nor divine inspired, or it would be a history book.


Unless your claiming your prophet and personal god, could not get history right, as they factually explained history.

 

[TashaN]

It sates there was a flood that killed people, and the boat ended up on a mnt Judi.


Explain in your own words just what happened so long ago.

What is the purpose? You can't read the verses yourself?

 

[TashaN]

Nor divine inspired, or it would be a history book.

Unless your claiming your prophet and personal god, could not get history right, as they factually explained history.

You still didn't answer me. Do you want to discuss the verses of Quran or you want to discuss whether it was inspired or not?

 

[outhouse]

You still didn't answer me. Do you want to discuss the verses of Quran or you want to discuss whether it was inspired or not?

They are both related. Since the verses in your book are claimed to be history and from god.

It sates there was a flood that killed people, and the boat ended up on a mnt Judi.


Your belief is what is up for debate, I already know what the plagiarized mythology states. The problem is geting you to face up to what is written.


Explain in your own words just what happened so long ago.

How did this mythology end up in your book ?

 

[TashaN]

They are both related. Since the verses in your book are claimed to be history and from god.

It sates there was a flood that killed people, and the boat ended up on a mnt Judi.

Your belief is what is up for debate, I already know what the plagiarized mythology states. The problem is geting you to face up to what is written.

You tell me, what is written in the Quran from your own reading?

Explain in your own words just what happened so long ago.

How did this mythology end up in your book ?

God said to Prophet Mohamed there were people who lost their way to God so he sent Noah to them but they didn't listen to him and mocked him. so God punished them by the flood and saved the believers at that time.

I thought it was pretty easy to grasp by simply reading the verses in the Quran.

 

[outhouse]

You tell me, what is written in the Quran from your own reading?

Read much?

I have stated over and over it is plagiarized mythology.


Don't get me started on your mythology.

God said

NOTHING

Gods do not exist at this time scientifically.

They are man made concepts.

to Prophet Mohamed

We do not know what he knew or wrote. Only what later scribes finally jotted down.

so he sent Noah

STOP IT.

Noah has no historicity, he is a mythological character.

so God punished them by the flood and saved the believers at that time.

Only the ones on the mythical boat were said to be saved, everyone else is said to have died.

Plagiarized mythology from Judaism.

 

[outhouse]

So you have no evidence of god.

So you have no evidence of divine inspiration.

WE have obvious plagiarized mythology.