The Golden Calf

[TashaN]

Obviously there is some kind of miscommunication going on, as I have no idea what you are talking about/implying, etc.


As I said - tell me what your problem is, with what has been said?



*

let us start over. Please read my previous post to Gnostic.

 

[Ingledsva]

let us start over. Please read my previous post to Gnostic.

OK - I went back and found it - here is the pertenant part -

I didn't miss the two sentences she highlighted in red:

2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something
•extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

We as Muslims have no immoderate attachment nor extreme admiration for the black stone in Mekkah.

That's why, in post #96 if you noticed, i told her "i agree with the above" and it include the part in red. i also pointed out it doesn't apply to Muslims. On the other hand, she said i skipped the *entire definition* on purpose although i provided the link for reference.

This is baloney.


The Black meteorite is ancient and Pagan.


It was moved to where it is now.

Building it a special housing, Circling it, stroking it, and kissing it, are definitely veneration of the stone.


"AI-Tirmidhi related on the authority of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them), that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said, "The Black Stone descended from Paradise..."


"Ibn Khuzaima and Ibn Habban, in their two Sahihs, related that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said that the Black Stone would be resurrected on the Day of Judgement with two eyes and a tongue, and would be a witness to those who sincerely touched and kissed it. (8, v. 2, p. 193) Al-Tirmidhi related that it was a good and sound Hadith."



"Ibn Ishaq said, "The tribes of Quraysh collected stones to rebuild the House, each tribe collecting on their own. They started rebuilding it, until the rebuilding of the Ka`bah reached the point where the Black Stone was to be placed in its designated site. A dispute erupted between the various tribes of Quraysh, each seeking the honor of placing the Black Stone for their own tribe..."



Black Stone - WikiIslam


From Kabahinfo.net - The Black Stone is the Right Hand of Allah on Earth.


"Historically when Ibrahim was ordered by Allah to build the Shrine for worship he uncovered the original foundations of the Kaaba built by Adam."




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[outhouse]

Can you please provide me with some resources about these claims?

Thank you.

Abraham.

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, and despite sporadic attempts by more conservative scholars such as Kenneth Kitchen to save the patriarchal narratives as history, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".[6]


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Exodus (from Greek ἔξοδος, exodos, "going out") is the charter myth of Israel;

A MYTH

Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence

and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"

A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins



Creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Creation myths often share a number of features. They often are considered sacred accounts and can be found in nearly all known religious traditions

 

[TashaN]

OK - I went back and found it - here is the pertenant part -





This is baloney.


The Black meteorite is ancient and Pagan.


It was moved to where it is now.

Building it a special housing, Circling it, stroking it, and kissing it, are definitely veneration of the stone.


"AI-Tirmidhi related on the authority of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them), that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said, "The Black Stone descended from Paradise..."


"Ibn Khuzaima and Ibn Habban, in their two Sahihs, related that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said that the Black Stone would be resurrected on the Day of Judgement with two eyes and a tongue, and would be a witness to those who sincerely touched and kissed it. (8, v. 2, p. 193) Al-Tirmidhi related that it was a good and sound Hadith."



"Ibn Ishaq said, "The tribes of Quraysh collected stones to rebuild the House, each tribe collecting on their own. They started rebuilding it, until the rebuilding of the Ka`bah reached the point where the Black Stone was to be placed in its designated site. A dispute erupted between the various tribes of Quraysh, each seeking the honor of placing the Black Stone for their own tribe..."



Black Stone - WikiIslam


From Kabahinfo.net - The Black Stone is the Right Hand of Allah on Earth.


"Historically when Ibrahim was ordered by Allah to build the Shrine for worship he uncovered the original foundations of the Kaaba built by Adam."




*

Are you referring to the black stone or the Ka'aba itself?

The black stone is said to fall from heaven, what is your objection?

When it comes to circulating around the Ka'aba, it's something which God has inspired Abraham to do way before Mohamed ever comes to the picture.

And yeah, it was there before even Prophet Mohamed was born, but it's not something related to paganism. I don't know where did you get the idea that it was pagan. Even before Prophet Mohamed appear in Mekkah as a Messenger of God, those who live in Mekkah did believe in God. They were basically polytheists, not pagans as some might believe.

By the way, wiki islam site is not really islamic. Try to get your information from reliable sources.

 

[TashaN]

Abraham.

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, and despite sporadic attempts by more conservative scholars such as Kenneth Kitchen to save the patriarchal narratives as history, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".[6]


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Exodus (from Greek ἔξοδος, exodos, "going out") is the charter myth of Israel;

A MYTH

Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence

and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"

A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins



Creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Creation myths often share a number of features. They often are considered sacred accounts and can be found in nearly all known religious traditions

But these were based on what the bible and other scriptures says!

I do acknowledge the previous scriptures but many details in it are questionable to me since other than the Prophets we acknowledge were involved in editing and adding to the main text. For instance, you can see in the bible self proclaimed prophets like Paul who added his own writings to the scriptures.

 

[outhouse]

I do acknowledge the previous scriptures but many details in it are questionable to me since other than the Prophets we acknowledge were involved in editing and adding to the main text. .

Loose the word prophet. Modern people take it out of context.

All holy books were written by normal men. Every last word in every last religious book, was written by a normal man. This is a fact.

A prophet back then, means someone who talks about god, nothing more.

All prophets are self proclaimed, or some other person found value in his words and called him a prophet.

But these were based on what the bible and other scriptures says!

And since these books were factually the source of your books, those errors got copied.

For instance, you can see in the bible self proclaimed prophets like Paul who added his own writings to the scriptures

Paul was not writing to be a prophet or important. He was a scribe who wrote for a community. he did not write his epistles alone, he was a co-author nothing more.

later people found importance in his letters.

 

[s2a]

I do not understand the story of The Golden Calf, if Aaron was a prophet why did he let them make an idol while Moses was gone? I would think that Aaron would know that making a idol was wrong since he was a prophet. How come nothing happened to Aaron when he was apart of making the idol? Is this another contradiction in the Bible that makes people believe that this story is only for moral value, not something that really happened?

Could just be the booze talking?

I dare say that Aaron (in the oft repeated story) eventually expressed his regets, not unlike many that returned to their dorm the next day after traversing the "walk of shame".

Just speculation...

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you referring to the black stone or the Ka'aba itself?

The black stone is said to fall from heaven, what is your objection?

When it comes to circulating around the Ka'aba, it's something which God has inspired Abraham to do way before Mohamed ever comes to the picture.

And yeah, it was there before even Prophet Mohamed was born, but it's not something related to paganism. I don't know where did you get the idea that it was pagan. Even before Prophet Mohamed appear in Mekkah as a Messenger of God, those who live in Mekkah did believe in God. They were basically polytheists, not pagans as some might believe.

By the way, wiki islam site is not really islamic. Try to get your information from reliable sources.

LOL! Good try - but very obviously most of my info comes from Islamic sources.

It was related to Paganism.


And what I have posted PROVES what they are doing, is IDOLATRY.



*

 

[Mycroft]

Prophets are just normal people who believe they either have communicated or have some authority to speak for God.

Prophets are not perfect and are as likely to make mistakes as anyone. They maybe very wise men, they may have some insight regarding God, but they are still human.

It's simple.

The people worshipping the Golden Calf were not worshipping god. So he had them all murdered.

 

[gnostic]

The same goes with Prophet Mohamed. We do love him and admire him but there is absolutely no comparison between him and God at all levels. He was a messenger of God. So we worship God, the sender, not the messenger. If we worship Mohamed, why would we have a difficulty to just say so as Christians do when they openly say they worship Jesus as well as God. We absolutely have nothing to hide when it comes to our religion. You can read the Quran itself to see how God speaks to Mohamed as nothing but a servant and messenger of God. In fact, Prophet Mohamed himself warned us of praising him as Christians do so and did his best to show he is nothing but a servant of God. all Muslims agree on this and there is no a single Muslim on earth as far as i know claim to worship Mohamed or try to equate him in anyway with God.

That's not the images I'm getting in the naming-teddy-bear-Muhammad incident in which a British school teacher was arrested, or the Danish-cartoon incident in which violent protests happened globally.

In both incidents, a large number of Muslims wanted school teacher flogged for blasphemy, but wanted cartoonists dead, also for blasphemy.

Although no death have occurred with the teddy-bear business, the same can't be said about the cartoons. Supposedly 200 or more death had occurred in relations, and the one that really disgusted me was the murder of a nun in Syria. Why murder a nun who had nothing to do with cartoons?

How can it blasphemy when Muhammad isn't a god?

You may not go violent and many Muslims may not resort to violence, but apparently a large numbers do, especially with regards to Muhammad.

To me that obvious idol worshipping or hero worshipping.

You may not think it is, and that's all fine and well, but it is obvious some do.

For those who do, it is unhealthy and destructive excessive admiration or reverence towards their prophet. And those who use blasphemy as a mean to extract punishment upon the perceived offenders, are treating Muhammad as an idol or godlike.

 

[TashaN]

Loose the word prophet. Modern people take it out of context.

All holy books were written by normal men. Every last word in every last religious book, was written by a normal man. This is a fact.

A prophet back then, means someone who talks about god, nothing more.

All prophets are self proclaimed, or some other person found value in his words and called him a prophet.

I agree that they are normal men, but they are called Prophets because of the message of God they have received, at least the one we know of in Islam.

And since these books were factually the source of your books, those errors got copied.

Correction: God is the source of the Quran, not the previous scriptures.

Paul was not writing to be a prophet or important. He was a scribe who wrote for a community. he did not write his epistles alone, he was a co-author nothing more.

later people found importance in his letters.

His writings became part of the bible which Christians believe they are actually the word of God, not Paul's.

 

[TashaN]

LOL! Good try - but very obviously most of my info comes from Islamic sources.

It was related to Paganism.

And what I have posted PROVES what they are doing, is IDOLATRY.

*

Good try?! :sarcastic

Yet, you failed to address what i have stated in my last reply to you and you rather chose to spout nonsense and childish remarks.

I'm not interested to discuss with you this matter any further since you lack basic principles of a respectful dialogue.

Peace be upon you.

 

[TashaN]

That's not the images I'm getting in the naming-teddy-bear-Muhammad incident in which a British school teacher was arrested, or the Danish-cartoon incident in which violent protests happened globally.

In both incidents, a large number of Muslims wanted school teacher flogged for blasphemy, but wanted cartoonists dead, also for blasphemy.

Although no death have occurred with the teddy-bear business, the same can't be said about the cartoons. Supposedly 200 or more death had occurred in relations, and the one that really disgusted me was the murder of a nun in Syria. Why murder a nun who had nothing to do with cartoons?

How can it blasphemy when Muhammad isn't a god?

You may not go violent and many Muslims may not resort to violence, but apparently a large numbers do, especially with regards to Muhammad.

To me that obvious idol worshipping or hero worshipping.

You may not think it is, and that's all fine and well, but it is obvious some do.

For those who do, it is unhealthy and destructive excessive admiration or reverence towards their prophet. And those who use blasphemy as a mean to extract punishment upon the perceived offenders, are treating Muhammad as an idol or godlike.

I agree with you they were extreme in their view but i believe you know well that they are a fraction of the Muslim population. Don't forget we are roughly around 1.6 billion.

 

[outhouse]

I agree that they are normal men, but they are called Prophets because of the message of God they have received, .

No. That is quite unsubstantiated.

People calimed god controlled your ecvery thought back then, all positive thoughts were done by god.

On one hand, They were ignorant primitive people who had no idea of what a conscious mind actually was. Thoughts were created for you, to them.

On the other, had the same intellect we do to ty and rationlize what they did not know.

Prophets were not special people, god spoke to everyone back then, as it is said he does now. They were just normal people who were the ones who talked about god.

Good speakers, nothing more.

Correction: God is the source of the Quran, not the previous scriptures.

Correction. Gods are known to be created by men. And gods are mythooical in nature. And only men wrote your books. Men who used previous books as their only source.

If the bible did no exist, you would fatually have no religion.

Monotheism had caught on, it was popular, and the culture of the middle east wanted their own version, so they made one. Period.

Only man writes books, period.

His writings became part of the bible which Christians believe they are actually the word of God, not Paul's

Dont discount paul, or we bag on muhammad, who is really in the same shoes as Paul.

Not true.

PEOPLE of faith look at all these books as being devinely inspired.

This isnspiration however, reamains unsubstantiated as ever coming from anything beyond human consciousness.


If we follow history we see quite clearly ALL gods ever written about, being mirrored by the culture that creates them.

Violent people created a violent god.
Oppressed people created a saviour god.
Conquered people worshipped a warrior god.
Timid people a kind god.
People near volcanos created a volcano god.
Near mountains with thunderstorms, mountain gods.

Ect ect ect


Reality is your books copied the same historical errors as the people before yours.

Your religion came to the party later, thus, we see every aspect fully.

 

[gnostic]

I agree with you they were extreme in their view but i believe you know well that they are a fraction of the Muslim population.

And I agree with you that only a fraction of billion Muslims were involved in the violent protests about the Danish cartoons.

But even if it was only fraction of billion were involved, like 0.1% would still be a million people. And 200+ reported death may be tiniest of percentage to 6 billion people, that still pretty large in day-to-day reality.

Don't trivialise their death, because of the percentage is small; for tens of thousands of people were effected were during those short periods: children were made orphans, parents lost children, home and businesses were destroyed, simply because thousands upon 1000s of Muslims in every Muslim countries could controlled their rage.

Do you trivialise the number of children killed or seriously injured, during the recent Israeli attack on Gaza? No? The death of few Palestinian boys playing soccer on the beach, had sickened me and lot of non-Muslim Australian people.

And just yesterday, a few minor protesters started burning an Australian flag, because of Australian government inaction against Israel. How on earth can we sympathise Palestinians if some stupid Australian Muslims pull a stupid stunt like that?

Burning flag(s) don't help causes. It will only make people not listen, when Muslims throwing temper tantrums when they don't get their way.

I am one who would like the Palestine get their independence, one day, but not while the Hamas are still in power, because they they are irresponsible and violent groups who do use people as human shield, while firing 100s rockets everyday in Israel. I may not like the recent Israeli attack, but I also don't like Hamas making daily attacks on Israeli, even though there are less death on the Israel's side.

Just yesterday in front of cameras, I heard a Hamas leader refusing to heed international call for cease-fire on both sides, and I come realise that Hamas want the death of these children to happen, because they wanted the media attention.

That's an action of a terrorist. Terrorists want mass media attention. It is one of the staple-diet strategy and tactics of terrorism. I may hate violence especially in battles and terrorism, but I know that everything the Hamas do is nothing but i understand such strategy and tactics.

Hamas wants death, especially children, and want Israeli retaliation and invasion, because the easier way to recruit new terrorists, is to make populace in Palestinian Territories, and outside, to make young angry Muslims in any part of the world, to become radicalised and recruit to their cause. And that have always being the Islamic terrorists recruit people.

They don't really care about death of any children, because they know exactly how to recruit new Muslims to their causes.

 

[Ingledsva]

Good try?! :sarcastic

Yet, you failed to address what i have stated in my last reply to you and you rather chose to spout nonsense and childish remarks.

I'm not interested to discuss with you this matter any further since you lack basic principles of a respectful dialogue.

Peace be upon you.

LOL! Yeah right! Did you notice whom those quotes were from?


And I replied to everything you said.


You just don't like the answers.



*


*

 

[gnostic]

Not really. Religion has motivated many scientists to study and unveil the secrets of this world. It also motivated them in a very different way.

To borrow your own words - "Not really".

I don't deny the early Muslim contributions to science and mathematics. I truly admired their works. And it all come from their own inquiring mind, and from their hard work and discoveries.

Claiming that Islam is responsible for science, is to belittle those brilliant and intelligent men's efforts and achievements.

Take for instance, Michelangelo. Although he received many commissions from the Church, the artistic works are his own painting, sculptures or architecture, it is not achievements of the Church or Christianity or the Bible, even he found plenty inspirations from biblical stories. They may own his work of arts, but the works themselves come from his genius and from his hands.

Do not belittle your own history, the history of those scientists who have done the works in Islam's golden age.

Do you understand, tashaN?

 

[TashaN]

No. That is quite unsubstantiated.

People calimed god controlled your ecvery thought back then, all positive thoughts were done by god.

On one hand, They were ignorant primitive people who had no idea of what a conscious mind actually was. Thoughts were created for you, to them.

On the other, had the same intellect we do to ty and rationlize what they did not know.

Prophets were not special people, god spoke to everyone back then, as it is said he does now. They were just normal people who were the ones who talked about god.

Good speakers, nothing more.

Correction. Gods are known to be created by men. And gods are mythooical in nature. And only men wrote your books. Men who used previous books as their only source.

If the bible did no exist, you would fatually have no religion.

Monotheism had caught on, it was popular, and the culture of the middle east wanted their own version, so they made one. Period.

Only man writes books, period.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree because i assume you don't believe in God on the first place? so no point in discussing who spoke with God and who didn't unless you will assume he does exist for the sake of the argument and then only we can have a fruitful discussion on this subject. That's because the existence of God is a totally different topic.

So?

Dont discount paul, or we bag on muhammad, who is really in the same shoes as Paul.

Not true.

PEOPLE of faith look at all these books as being devinely inspired.

This isnspiration however, reamains unsubstantiated as ever coming from anything beyond human consciousness.


If we follow history we see quite clearly ALL gods ever written about, being mirrored by the culture that creates them.

Violent people created a violent god.
Oppressed people created a saviour god.
Conquered people worshipped a warrior god.
Timid people a kind god.
People near volcanos created a volcano god.
Near mountains with thunderstorms, mountain gods.

Ect ect ect


Reality is your books copied the same historical errors as the people before yours.

Your religion came to the party later, thus, we see every aspect fully.

To be honest with you, i feel we are now off-track and i don't even remember what we supposed to discuss about. We can either go back to the main topic or initiate a new thread with any subject you would like us to discuss. your call.

 

[TashaN]

And I agree with you that only a fraction of billion Muslims were involved in the violent protests about the Danish cartoons.

But even if it was only fraction of billion were involved, like 0.1% would still be a million people. And 200+ reported death may be tiniest of percentage to 6 billion people, that still pretty large in day-to-day reality.

Don't trivialise their death, because of the percentage is small; for tens of thousands of people were effected were during those short periods: children were made orphans, parents lost children, home and businesses were destroyed, simply because thousands upon 1000s of Muslims in every Muslim countries could controlled their rage.

Do you trivialise the number of children killed or seriously injured, during the recent Israeli attack on Gaza? No? The death of few Palestinian boys playing soccer on the beach, had sickened me and lot of non-Muslim Australian people.

And just yesterday, a few minor protesters started burning an Australian flag, because of Australian government inaction against Israel. How on earth can we sympathise Palestinians if some stupid Australian Muslims pull a stupid stunt like that?

Burning flag(s) don't help causes. It will only make people not listen, when Muslims throwing temper tantrums when they don't get their way.

I am one who would like the Palestine get their independence, one day, but not while the Hamas are still in power, because they they are irresponsible and violent groups who do use people as human shield, while firing 100s rockets everyday in Israel. I may not like the recent Israeli attack, but I also don't like Hamas making daily attacks on Israeli, even though there are less death on the Israel's side.

Just yesterday in front of cameras, I heard a Hamas leader refusing to heed international call for cease-fire on both sides, and I come realise that Hamas want the death of these children to happen, because they wanted the media attention.

That's an action of a terrorist. Terrorists want mass media attention. It is one of the staple-diet strategy and tactics of terrorism. I may hate violence especially in battles and terrorism, but I know that everything the Hamas do is nothing but i understand such strategy and tactics.

Hamas wants death, especially children, and want Israeli retaliation and invasion, because the easier way to recruit new terrorists, is to make populace in Palestinian Territories, and outside, to make young angry Muslims in any part of the world, to become radicalised and recruit to their cause. And that have always being the Islamic terrorists recruit people.

They don't really care about death of any children, because they know exactly how to recruit new Muslims to their causes.

I, in no way intended to trivialize the death of any human being in regardless of whether they were children or adults. I was merely referring to whether that's a representative of Islam or not.

 

[TashaN]

LOL! Yeah right! Did you notice whom those quotes were from?


And I replied to everything you said.


You just don't like the answers.



*


*

I accept any answer whether i like it or not. What i don't accept is disrespectful and uncivilized dialogue.