The Golden Calf

[TashaN]

Gnostic, i also would like to add that, we Muslims were told by God that we shouldn't concern ourselves with the details of what happened in the past. The main message of the Quran is guidance, not story telling.

That was a People that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! (Quran 2:134)

 

[paarsurrey]

Gnostic, i also would like to add that, we Muslims were told by God that we shouldn't concern ourselves with the details of what happened in the past. The main message of the Quran is guidance, not story telling.

That was a People that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! (Quran 2:134)

I quite agree with you brother.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Quran did mention Moses killing a person but it was by mistake. He didn't have the intention of killing him. That's a huge difference.

And he entered the City at a time when its people were not watching; and he found there two men fighting, one of his own people, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own people appealed to him against his foe, and Musa struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): For he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: For He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 28:15-16)

When it comes to David, he is indeed a Prophet AND a King, the same with Prophet/King Solomon.

You can read about David's mistake in judgment in chapter 38 of the Quran.

Nevertheless, we Muslims believe that Prophets supposed to be the example and role model, so the things you mentioned like adultery and other similar great sins are not something which a Prophet of God would do whether he was just a Prophet or both, a Prophet and a King.

You are very right.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Further from the possible historical cores in the mythology, they claim they know so well. After using the bible as their source and foundation, repeating the same errors.

Bible is neither a source nor makes foundation of Islam/Quran.
You are wrong here.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

As is also, kissing that black rock. :yes:



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Just to correct you.

It is not essential to kiss the rock; never mentioned in Quran to kiss it. It is basically put there to know that one has completed a circle. The tradition states that Caliph Omar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Regards

 

[gnostic]

And he entered the City at a time when its people were not watching; and he found there two men fighting, one of his own people, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own people appealed to him against his foe, and Musa struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): For he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: For He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 28:15-16)

The bible version say he witnessed an Egyptian killing an Israelite, and Moses killed him in revenge, and ran away to Midian where he met his future wife.

It was revenge, but it is also murder. Did you read the verses I had provided?

Read Exodus 2:11-15.

11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and saw their forced labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his kinsfolk. 12 He looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 When he went out the next day, he saw two Hebrews fighting; and he said to the one who was in the wrong, “Why do you strike your fellow Hebrew?” 14 He answered, “Who made you a ruler and judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought, “Surely the thing is known.” 15 When Pharaoh heard of it, he sought to kill Moses.

 

[outhouse]

Bible is neither a source nor makes foundation of Islam/Quran.
You are wrong here.

Regards

Blah blah blah. You carry less then zero credibility here.


Were talking about facts here.

had there never been a bible, there would be no books in your religion.

 

[TashaN]

The bible version say he witnessed an Egyptian killing an Israelite, and Moses killed him in revenge, and ran away to Midian where he met his future wife.

It was revenge, but it is also murder. Did you read the verses I had provided?

Read Exodus 2:11-15.

I can't argue against the Bible because i'm not expert on it, so my answers came from what we know based on the Quran only. If there is a contradiction between the Quran and the Bible then scholars can look into the accuracy of it and how to reconcile both if it is possible to do so. Looking at the verse you have provided into it's original language will also help to clarify any confusion or misunderstanding.

 

[TashaN]

had there never been a bible, there would be no books in your religion.

Well, Islam is different in the sense that we are governed by Quranic laws. On the other hand Christians must abide by both OT and NT as well if i'm not mistaken. Nevertheless, according to Islam, the Quran is indeed the final revelation in the chain of messages before it which was revealed by God.

 

[Ingledsva]

Just to correct you.

It is not essential to kiss the rock; never mentioned in Quran to kiss it. It is basically put there to know that one has completed a circle. The tradition states that Caliph Omar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Regards

Regardless; kissing, touching, fawning over a rock, is Idolatry.


EDIT - I forgot to add that it was definitely NOT put there so you had something to go around. I suggest you read about it, and your Pagan past, and the stone that fell from the sky.


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[outhouse]

Well, Islam is different in the sense that we are governed by Quranic laws. On the other hand Christians must abide by both OT and NT as well if i'm not mistaken. Nevertheless, according to Islam, the Quran is indeed the final revelation in the chain of messages before it which was revealed by God.

Yes, but apologetics does not equal historical accuracy.

The same factual historical mistakes in the bible, were also made by the scribes who penned your books.

Your books are also further away from any possibly historical accounts, making it LESS accurate then the Jewish religion or Christian religion.

That is why your books state not to focus on historical events and pay attention to lessons and morals.

 

[TashaN]

Regardless; kissing, touching, fawning over a rock, is Idolatry.


EDIT - I forgot to add that it was definitely NOT put there so you had something to go around. I suggest you read about it, and your Pagan past, and the stone that fell from the sky.


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Definition of Idolatry: the worship of a picture or object as a god.

Idolatry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[TashaN]

Yes, but apologetics does not equal historical accuracy.

The same factual historical mistakes in the bible, were also made by the scribes who penned your books.

Your books are also further away from any possibly historical accounts, making it LESS accurate then the Jewish religion or Christian religion.

That is why your books state not to focus on historical events and pay attention to lessons and morals.

What is the purpose of a holy book? Isn't it mainly for guidance rather than writing down what that person or that have eaten or went?

God mentioned many stories in the Quran of Prophets within specific context. The goal was not recording the story itself but rather getting to understand the moral of the story.

Regarding accuracy, it depends whether you are referring to the teaching of the religion or the text itself. If it's the teachings then definitely there is major differences, but if you are talking about the scriptures themselves then they should all be accurate, especially when you examine all of them in their original language.

 

[Ingledsva]

Definition of Idolatry: the worship of a picture or object as a god.

Idolatry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Cheating isn't very nice, - put up the whole definition.


1: the worship of a physical object as a god


2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something


Idolatry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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i·dol·a·try


/īˈdälətrē/


noun

noun: idolatry; plural noun: idolatries

worship of idols.

synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping

"the prophets railed against idolatry"

•extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

"we must not allow our idolatry of art to obscure issues of political significance"

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[outhouse]

but if you are talking about the scriptures themselves then they should all be accurate, especially when you examine all of them in their original language.

They should be

But they factually are not accurate.


They all make claims about things that never happened, and people that never existed.

Whats worse is that the same historical mistakes the original authors made, other religions also put in their books, repeating the same mistakes blindly, and then claim it a divine source

 

[TashaN]

Cheating isn't very nice, - put up the whole definition.


1: the worship of a physical object as a god


2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something


Idolatry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


*

i·dol·a·try


/īˈdälətrē/


noun

noun: idolatry; plural noun: idolatries

worship of idols.

synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping

"the prophets railed against idolatry"

•extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

"we must not allow our idolatry of art to obscure issues of political significance"

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I agree with all the above. Your point? since the above doesn't apply to me, so how am i considered an idol worshiper?

 

[TashaN]

They all make claims about things that never happened, and people that never existed.

How do you know that?

 

[Ingledsva]

I agree with all the above. Your point? since the above doesn't apply to me, so how am i considered an idol worshiper?

You put up half a definition in an attempt to say I was wrong!


You were wrong!


Kissing, fawning over, touching, a rock (as shown by the full definition) is IDOLATRY.


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[outhouse]

How do you know that?

Universities such as Harvard and Yale, and years of reading, watching and devotion and passion to understand the real history from credible sources.

 

[outhouse]

so how am i considered an idol worshiper?

Your not.

The point is, there are many aspects to religion that are not clear cut or defined neatly in one little box. And I know you know this.

I have no issues with you at all.

You rarely venture into a historical debate.


There are two things religion needs to avoid, science and history. The only reason being is that were still using 2000 ish year old books written by ancient men very ignorant to both.

Using these books wisely is the key, and the reason why I have no issue with you personally.