The Golden Calf

[outhouse]

The whole thing is Pegg, how could people who did not know their own origins from 1200 BC, be able to explain events claimed to have happened 1400 BC ish ??????

The OT was roughly redacted into its current form until long after 622BC so they are descibing events after the exile after they were almost wiped out, by a handful of survivors who were forced to compile mutiple traditions into one tradition.

And the thing is they had been wiped out before, removing the ability to record what actually happened.

 

[idav]

It was Elisha, not Elijah. Two different people.

I appreciate the correction, those spelling of all those El's get me. Was actually wondering why it was spelled wrong, lol.

 

[Ingledsva]

a relief on the wall of an Egyptian temple at Karnak names “The Field of Abram”—this is the earliest reference to the Biblical patriarch Abraham in Egyptian records. Abraham purchased a field which was called 'The Field of Abram" by the Isrealites and Egyptians.

So there is evidence.

There is no proof that this has anything to do with the Biblical Abram story, and even if it did, it wouldn't make the story true.


The Abram story is far earlier (supposedly 2000 BCE or earlier,) then this Egyptian King's conquests.


The far later Tanakh writers would have know about "traditions," and "stories," such as a field called the Field of Abram, - and added them.


The list is places King Shoshenq I raided around 925 BCE.


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[Pegg]

The whole thing is Pegg, how could people who did not know their own origins from 1200 BC, be able to explain events claimed to have happened 1400 BC ish ??????

how would you know if they did not know their origins? You think over 3 million people old and young had no knowledge of their past or forefathers or where they came from?

what makes you believe that???

The OT was roughly redacted into its current form until long after 622BC so they are descibing events after the exile after they were almost wiped out, by a handful of survivors who were forced to compile mutiple traditions into one tradition.

wrong. The OT was written much earlier then the exile of the 6th century bce.

What is written in the OT prove it was written much earlier.

 

[Pegg]

There is no proof that this has anything to do with the Biblical Abram story, and even if it did, it wouldn't make the story true.


The Abram story is far earlier (supposedly 2000 BCE or earlier,) then this Egyptian King's conquests.

yes, but the field named in the Egyptian records was still known by that name.

The far later Tanakh writers would have know about "traditions," and "stories," such as a field called the Field of Abram, - and added them.


The list is places King Shoshenq I raided around 925 BCE.

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Its very unlikely that the egyptians would do that though wouldnt you agree?

And yet, that is exactly what the Egyptians did. The relief records the victory over Isreal and it lists by name the towns that they subdued: the names being Rabbith (Jos 19:20), Taanach, Beth-shean and Megiddo (where a portion of a stele or inscribed pillar of Shishak has been excavated) (Jos 17:11), Shunem (Jos 19:18), Rehob (Jos 19:28), Hapharaim (Jos 19:19), Gibeon (Jos 18:25), Beth-horon (Jos 21:22), Aijalon (Jos 21:24), Socoh (Jos 15:35), and Arad (Jos 12:14) and the “Field of Abram” itself is listed as one of his captures.

Isrealite scribes didn't write this....Egyptians did. There is evidence outside the bible if one wishes to accept it.

 

[Ingledsva]

There is no proof that this has anything to do with the Biblical Abram story, and even if it did, it wouldn't make the story true.


The Abram story is far earlier (supposedly 2000 BCE or earlier,) then this Egyptian King's conquests.

yes, but the field named in the Egyptian records was still known by that name.

ING - A field named for a known ancient Myth - does not make the Myth true. Plus, as has been stated, it was not an uncommon name.


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The far later Tanakh writers would have know about "traditions," and "stories," such as a field called the Field of Abram, - and added them.


The list is places King Shoshenq I raided around 925 BCE.

Its very unlikely that the egyptians would do that though wouldnt you agree?

ING - NO. They are just listing the name.


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And yet, that is exactly what the Egyptians did. The relief records the victory over Isreal and it lists by name the towns that they subdued: the names being Rabbith (Jos 19:20), Taanach, Beth-shean and Megiddo (where a portion of a stele or inscribed pillar of Shishak has been excavated) (Jos 17:11), Shunem (Jos 19:18), Rehob (Jos 19:28), Hapharaim (Jos 19:19), Gibeon (Jos 18:25), Beth-horon (Jos 21:22), Aijalon (Jos 21:24), Socoh (Jos 15:35), and Arad (Jos 12:14) and the “Field of Abram” itself is listed as one of his captures.

Isrealite scribes didn't write this....Egyptians did. There is evidence outside the bible if one wishes to accept it.

They conquered all over the place, and one of those places has Abram in the name. This is not proof of the Tanakh Abram story, which is written much later from oral "tradition."

In fact - if we take the dates - the Jews could have seen the Egyptian wall with the name Field of Abram on it - and having a traditional Patriarch with that name - wrote a story concerning a field.


I doubt it, but it is also unlikely that the name on the wall from 925 BCE refers to the Biblical Abram story.


EDIT - Thought I should add - that even if they had remembered a bit of history that long (highly unlikely,) that would not make ANY of the supernatural stories in the Bible true.


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[CMike]

Aaron was known as a peacemaker and didn't like conflict.

There are explanations that I have to get to at a later time.

 

[paarsurrey]

There is no proof that this has anything to do with the Biblical Abram story, and even if it did, it wouldn't make the story true.


The Abram story is far earlier (supposedly 2000 BCE or earlier,) then this Egyptian King's conquests.


The far later Tanakh writers would have know about "traditions," and "stories," such as a field called the Field of Abram, - and added them.


The list is places King Shoshenq I raided around 925 BCE.


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Please let us know more about the Egyptian Abram with references if any.
Is he a different person than Abraham of Genesis or Jewish Torah?

Thanks and regards

 

[outhouse]

how would you know if they did not know their origins?

Because of facts peg. FACTS.


There never was a mass migration of Israelites from Egypt.


FACTUALLY Semitic displaced people's of different cultures settled the highlands after 1200 BC, and it took hundreds of years for them to settle in.

They factually used Canaanite deities, pottery and alphabet.

You think over 3 million people old and young had no knowledge of their past or forefathers or where they came from?

What date. was there 3 million?

what makes you believe that???

facts peg.

wrong. The OT was written much earlier then the exile of the 6th century bce.

Pegg, it was factually redacted to monotheism after 622 BC

What is written in the OT prove it was written much earlier.

Some of the material in the books peg, does go back to roughly 960 ish BC for J, and 920 ish for E.


Unlike you, I will take the high road and provide sources .

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence



No archeological evidence has been found to support the Book of Exodus[3] and most archaeologists have abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".


While significant portions of the story told in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy were never intended to be historiographic

 

[outhouse]

Please let us know more about the Egyptian Abram with references if any.
Is he a different person than Abraham of Genesis or Jewish Torah?

Thanks and regards

What about that guy of yours that married children and used a sword to spread the religion?

 

[CMike]

Because of facts peg. FACTS.


There never was a mass migration of Israelites from Egypt.


FACTUALLY Semitic displaced people's of different cultures settled the highlands after 1200 BC, and it took hundreds of years for them to settle in.

They factually used Canaanite deities, pottery and alphabet.




What date. was there 3 million?





facts peg.






Pegg, it was factually redacted to monotheism after 622 BC




Some of the material in the books peg, does go back to roughly 960 ish BC for J, and 920 ish for E.


Unlike you, I will take the high road and provide sources .

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence



No archeological evidence has been found to support the Book of Exodus[3] and most archaeologists have abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".


While significant portions of the story told in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy were never intended to be historiographic

They are not facts.

They are opinions of some people.

 

[Ingledsva]

Please let us know more about the Egyptian Abram with references if any.
Is he a different person than Abraham of Genesis or Jewish Torah?

Thanks and regards

Ummm! What Egyptian Abram?


This is just the name of a conquest area, on an Egyptian King's brag wall.


The "Abram's Field" was apparently in Canaan.


Because of the dates, and there being multiple Abrams over time, there is no way to legitimately connect this to the Tanakh Abram story. There is in fact no way to prove the Tanakh Abram story actually took place.


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[Ingledsva]

They are not facts.

They are opinions of some people.

There is no evidence.


That many people moving around a small area like that for forty years would yield a lot of archaeological data.


Broken pottery, shredded baskets, useless torn clothing, ripped up sandals, bone piles from what they ate, burials of dead people, stone markers, stone altars, doodles and such on rocks, etc.


We would be able to trace their whole route, by following the HUGE piles of ancient POOP that many people would have left every time they stopped.


In fact, we would be able to use satellite imagery to show us the "not visible to the naked eye" trail, that many people would have carved into the desert, - just as we do when looking for lost ancient caravan routes.


Logically, how do that many people wander in that small an area for forty years?


There were caravan stops all over the desert - the distance a camel caravan could move in one day.


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[outhouse]

There is no evidence.


That many people moving around a small area like that for forty years would yield a lot of archaeological data.


Broken pottery, shredded baskets, useless torn clothing, ripped up sandals, bone piles from what they ate, burials of dead people, stone markers, stone altars, doodles and such on rocks, etc.


We would be able to trace their whole route, by following the HUGE piles of ancient POOP that many people would have left every time they stopped.


In fact, we would be able to use satellite imagery to show us the "not visible to the naked eye" trail, that many people would have carved into the desert, - just as we do when looking for lost ancient caravan routes.


Logically, how do that many people wander in that small an area for forty years?


There were caravan stops all over the desert - the distance a camel caravan could move in one day.


*

And the factual evidence we do have points in the opposite direction.

Canaanite alphabet
Canaanite pottery
Canaanite mythology
Canaanite deities

All factually used by early Israelite

 

[paarsurrey]

Ummm! What Egyptian Abram?


This is just the name of a conquest area, on an Egyptian King's brag wall.


The "Abram's Field" was apparently in Canaan.


Because of the dates, and there being multiple Abrams over time, there is no way to legitimately connect this to the Tanakh Abram story. There is in fact no way to prove the Tanakh Abram story actually took place.


*

Can you please mention the correct dates for Abraham and Abram and the references?

This seem to be another slur made by narrators/scribes or the clergy to malign the patriarch.

Regards

 

[Ingledsva]

And the factual evidence we do have points in the opposite direction.

Canaanite alphabet
Canaanite pottery
Canaanite mythology
Canaanite deities

All factually used by early Israelite

Indeed, Archaeology is my field.


Biblical Archaeology magazine has a very good article on this very subject, as does Archaeology Magazine - WHO WERE THE ISRAELITES?


In fact, some time ago, even Biblical Scholars were already saying the "Israelites" were actually Canaanite. Such as George Mendenhall.



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[Ingledsva]

Can you please mention the correct dates for Abraham and Abram and the references?

This seem to be another slur made by narrators/scribes or the clergy to malign the patriarch.

Regards

This information has already been given.


Just go back a few pages.


You can also Google "Abram's Field."


And why would truth be a slur to patriarchs?


What is - IS!


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[outhouse]

Indeed, Archaeology is my field.


Biblical Archaeology magazine has a very good article on this very subject, as does Archaeology Magazine - WHO WERE THE ISRAELITES?


In fact, some time ago, even Biblical Scholars were already saying the "Israelites" were actually Canaanite. Such as George Mendenhall.



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Israel Finkelstein states it is fact that they were for the most part displaced Canaanites.


You can tell how orthodox ones beliefs are by how far away from this truth they create their view. Anything but this and we have clear cut bias flying in the wind.

 

[outhouse]

Can you please mention the correct dates for Abraham and Abram and the references?

This seem to be another slur made by narrators/scribes or the clergy to malign the patriarch.

Regards

Abraham has no historicity, and because your books used a historically false source to copy from, it also has these same historical errors. :sorry1:

 

[paarsurrey]

That has been disproven as ever having had anything to do with the biblical character, who was from Mesopotamia not Egypt.

The name as listed was also quite common, and his list of property did not match what the biblical character would have had, unless he was very poor. name is not even full matching.


And it does not help the exodus legend or Israelites origins, in any way.

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, and despite sporadic attempts by more conservative scholars such as Kenneth Kitchen to save the patriarchal narratives as history, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".[6]

who was from Mesopotamia

Please quote from sources giving references.

Regards