The Golden Calf

[outhouse]

who was from Mesopotamia

Please quote from sources giving references.

Regards

You get nothing. As you only use it with hatred against others beliefs.

Your one step away from ignore.

 

[paarsurrey]

You get nothing. As you only use it with hatred against others beliefs.

Your one step away from ignore.

You get me wrong.

I bridge gaps between the religions and promote love.
Only through truth gaps could be bridged and love could be promoted.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

You get me wrong.

No I do not.


You attack the books of christians and Jews to promot eyour own religion.

You also do not place the same criticism on your own religion, you place on others.

 

[paarsurrey]

No I do not.


You attack the books of christians and Jews to promot eyour own religion.

You also do not place the same criticism on your own religion, you place on others.

If they do wrong; they should be corrected.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

If they do wrong; they should be corrected.

Talking about your books here?

The ignorance and hatred is overwhelming.

The intellect it takes to trash the source of your own religion, to me, is like urinating in your own water supply, and telling people it taste great!

 

[gnostic]

Trinity itself is an idol. If they worship Mary it makes four instead of three.

Actually, Muslims worship idols as well.

For one, they always include Muhammad in their prayers, which is really no different to Christians that Mary or any one of the saints in their prayers.

They can call themselves (naming a child or newly converted to Islam) as "Muhammad", but take offence when a boy named his toy "Muhammad", arresting his teacher, for blasphemy. Or when Danish cartoonists drew satire of the prophet as blasphemy.

Second, the Qur'an. It is a book, yet some Muslims will treat any abuses (such burning, tearing pages, urinating, etc) to the book as blasphemy too. I don't like people burning books, but it is just an object. And urinating is just tacky and juvenile form of behaviours, but how do you stop stupid people doing stupid and tasteless things. Arresting people for doing these actions are only valid if these books don't belong them (eg they can be arrested for vandalising or destroying other people's properties); but if they owned these books, then it is over the top to arrest them.

The funny thing is in Saudi Arabia, it is more than ok to carry the Qur'an in public, but you are more likely to get arrested for a Christians carrying their bibles around.

Third, the pilgrims to Mecca, especially the kabba, can be idol worshipping. Or the need to pray in the direction of Mecca, is sort of treating a place or city as an idol.

 

[Ingledsva]

Actually, Muslims worship idols as well.

For one, they always include Muhammad in their prayers, which is really no different to Christians that Mary or any one of the saints in their prayers.

They can call themselves (naming a child or newly converted to Islam) as "Muhammad", but take offence when a boy named his toy "Muhammad", arresting his teacher, for blasphemy. Or when Danish cartoonists drew satire of the prophet as blasphemy.

Second, the Qur'an. It is a book, yet some Muslims will treat any abuses (such burning, tearing pages, urinating, etc) to the book as blasphemy too. I don't like people burning books, but it is just an object. And urinating is just tacky and juvenile form of behaviours, but how do you stop stupid people doing stupid and tasteless things. Arresting people for doing these actions are only valid if these books don't belong them (eg they can be arrested for vandalising or destroying other people's properties); but if they owned these books, then it is over the top to arrest them.

The funny thing is in Saudi Arabia, it is more than ok to carry the Qur'an in public, but you are more likely to get arrested for a Christians carrying their bibles around.

Third, the pilgrims to Mecca, especially the kabba, can be idol worshipping. Or the need to pray in the direction of Mecca, is sort of treating a place or city as an idol.

As is also, kissing that black rock. :yes:



*

 

[gnostic]

As is also, kissing that black rock.

I didn't know that...but yes, kissing an object, building or place, can be seen as idol worshipping, by the level of reverence a person may have for it.

And reverence for a person whether they be prophets or saints (or messiah), is hero-worshipping, hence treating a religious figure as an idol.

And arresting and charging a person with blasphemy, is treating that religious object, place or person as god or god-like is no different from idol-worshipping. I usually associate blasphemy to god or gods, not to people.

I just don't see how Muslims are different to Christians.

 

[outhouse]

I just don't see how Muslims are different to Christians.

Further from the possible historical cores in the mythology, they claim they know so well. After using the bible as their source and foundation, repeating the same errors.

 

[gnostic]

With regards to the Golden Calf, from mythological or anthropological point (or in literary view), I think I can see that Aaron was under pressure by people to do something that he was willing to do.

It is actually very human, to succumb to pressures or to threat.

For others, other than some Muslims, prophets were humans too, they can feel love or hate, jealousy or anger, compassion or intolerance. They can make mistake too, err, or to use the heavily religious term - they can sin.

My understanding of abrahamic religions is that only god is perfectly pure and sinless. But I somewhat a cynic, because I see the abrahamic deity to be less than perfect, and seemed to have the same human attributes.

Just because the Qur'an doesn't show a prophet sinning, doesn't mean anything because the Qur'an doesn't tell the whole story. The qur'an just whitewash version of the biblical stories.

 

[outhouse]

With regards to the Golden Calf, .

Have you ever thought it could be a jab at all the polytheist still worshipping El?

Some of the older Mesopotamian mythology and El was also seen as a bull I believe, and something strict Yahwist were fighting against those who still worshipped El as the father deity.

Just asking because i know you know more of this mythology then I do.

 

[CMike]

There is no evidence.


That many people moving around a small area like that for forty years would yield a lot of archaeological data.


Broken pottery, shredded baskets, useless torn clothing, ripped up sandals, bone piles from what they ate, burials of dead people, stone markers, stone altars, doodles and such on rocks, etc.


We would be able to trace their whole route, by following the HUGE piles of ancient POOP that many people would have left every time they stopped.


In fact, we would be able to use satellite imagery to show us the "not visible to the naked eye" trail, that many people would have carved into the desert, - just as we do when looking for lost ancient caravan routes.


Logically, how do that many people wander in that small an area for forty years?


There were caravan stops all over the desert - the distance a camel caravan could move in one day.


*

And how do you know which pot belonged to a jew?

Also this was thousands of years ago. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean it never existed.

 

[TashaN]

I'm not sure if other scriptures like the Quran would be relevant to the discussion. I apologize if that's not the case.

This is the story according to the Quran:

The people of Musa made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of a calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the Way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: "If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish."

When Musa came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the Tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Harun said: "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me amongst the people of sin."

Musa prayed: "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"

Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods).

But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe, verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

When the anger of Musa was appeased, he took up the Tablets: in the writing thereon was Guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord. (Quran 7:148-154)

 

[TashaN]

With regards to the Golden Calf, from mythological or anthropological point (or in literary view), I think I can see that Aaron was under pressure by people to do something that he was willing to do.

It is actually very human, to succumb to pressures or to threat.

For others, other than some Muslims, prophets were humans too, they can feel love or hate, jealousy or anger, compassion or intolerance. They can make mistake too, err, or to use the heavily religious term - they can sin.

My understanding of abrahamic religions is that only god is perfectly pure and sinless. But I somewhat a cynic, because I see the abrahamic deity to be less than perfect, and seemed to have the same human attributes.

Just because the Qur'an doesn't show a prophet sinning, doesn't mean anything because the Qur'an doesn't tell the whole story. The qur'an just whitewash version of the biblical stories.

The Quran is full of verses speaking of Prophets seeking forgiveness like Moses, Jonah, etc. They do commit mistakes and minor sins, but since they are righteous people so they don't commit great sins like adultery, stealing, drinking alcohol, etc. They do repent and God accept their prayer and forgive these errors and mistakes. That's what the majority of Muslim scholars says.

Regarding God and having human attributes, what do you mean?

 

[Ingledsva]

And how do you know which pot belonged to a jew?

Also this was thousands of years ago. Just because they weren't found doesn't mean it never existed.

What? You have got to be kidding?


We can tell all kinds of things from pottery shards. Such as where the ingredients came from, the style gives us an area, and the decoration, narrows it to a group.


We can tell a lot by what was in the pot as well, such as what they ate, and where that food source was available at that time.


We have pottery from China that is 20,000 years old.



*

 

[outhouse]

I'm not sure if other scriptures like the Quran would be relevant to the discussion. I apologize if that's not the case.

Thank you for providing a positive influence from your religion.

We have a trouble maker doing the opposite. If you see what looks like heat generated towards your religion, its not personal. It is against those with little regard for others.

Thanks

 

[TashaN]

Thank you for providing a positive influence from your religion.

We have a trouble maker doing the opposite. If you see what looks like heat generated towards your religion, its not personal. It is against those with little regard for others.

Thanks

i don't know whom you are referring to, but in general, we can't judge an entire religion with the actions of few, don't you agree with me?

 

[gnostic]

The Quran is full of verses speaking of Prophets seeking forgiveness like Moses, Jonah, etc. They do commit mistakes and minor sins, but since they are righteous people so they don't commit great sins like adultery, stealing, drinking alcohol, etc.

That's why I wrote - "For others, other than some Muslims, prophets were humans too", instead of all Muslims. I do understand that not all Muslims believe the same things.

Paarsurrey is one of those "some Muslims", as can be seen by his earlier post:

You are right here.
Aaron never made any Golden Calf.
It is an attempt by the narrators/scribes/clergy to character-assassinate Aaron and to belittle the prophets of G-d.

As you can see, paarsurrey seemed to believe prophets are sinless, perfect, like god. That's why I replied to.

And the reason why I think the Qur'an tends to write, or rewrite well-known biblical stories, as "whitewashing", is because the biblical version do show them as humans and sinning.

In Exodus 2:11-15, Moses murdered an Egyptian, after the Egyptian killed an Israelite. This was before the Ten Commandment, but he did commit murder. That's one of the big sin, as well as crime.

Jews and Christians don't consider David to be a prophet, but a king, but Muslims do see him as a prophet. In 2 Samuel 11, David had not only committed adultery with Bathsheba and got her pregnant, but arranged to have her husband (Uriah) killed in battle against the Ammonites.

Neither Moses nor David committed minor sins. And yet, Moses did become Israelite greatest prophet, and God still favored David as king. That I would guess is God is capability of forgiveness.

The Qur'an doesn't record either stories, hence I think the Qur'an had sanitized version, by leaving out these events altogether.

I may not believe in either stories, but I do understand the stories, from literary point of view.

 

[outhouse]

i don't know whom you are referring to, but in general, we can't judge an entire religion with the actions of few, don't you agree with me?

Yes I do agree whole hearted. :clap

 

[TashaN]

And the reason why I think the Qur'an tends to write, or rewrite well-known biblical stories, as "whitewashing", is because the biblical version do show them as humans and sinning.

In Exodus 2:11-15, Moses murdered an Egyptian, after the Egyptian killed an Israelite. This was before the Ten Commandment, but he did commit murder. That's one of the big sin, as well as crime.

Jews and Christians don't consider David to be a prophet, but a king, but Muslims do see him as a prophet. In 2 Samuel 11, David had not only committed adultery with Bathsheba and got her pregnant, but arranged to have her husband (Uriah) killed in battle against the Ammonites.

Neither Moses nor David committed minor sins. And yet, Moses did become Israelite greatest prophet, and God still favored David as king. That I would guess is God is capability of forgiveness.

The Qur'an doesn't record either stories, hence I think the Qur'an had sanitized version, by leaving out these events altogether.

I may not believe in either stories, but I do understand the stories, from literary point of view.

The Quran did mention Moses killing a person but it was by mistake. He didn't have the intention of killing him. That's a huge difference.

And he entered the City at a time when its people were not watching; and he found there two men fighting, one of his own people, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own people appealed to him against his foe, and Musa struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): For he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: For He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 28:15-16)

When it comes to David, he is indeed a Prophet AND a King, the same with Prophet/King Solomon.

You can read about David's mistake in judgment in chapter 38 of the Quran.

Nevertheless, we Muslims believe that Prophets supposed to be the example and role model, so the things you mentioned like adultery and other similar great sins are not something which a Prophet of God would do whether he was just a Prophet or both, a Prophet and a King.