The Golden Calf

[gnostic]

I can't argue against the Bible because i'm not expert on it, so my answers came from what we know based on the Quran only.

Well, I am not an expert in the bible as well, but I have read the bible more than I have Qur'an.

(I have read the bible several times now, from cover to cover, of both OT and NT, but only read the Qur'an only once, again from cover to cover. But I have lost count the number of times I have read from Genesis to 1 Samuel, because this part of the bible is the most interesting to me.)

My expertise is not in the bible, but in classical literature and classical mythology, and I better than the average in medieval literature (and medieval legends and folklore). The last 6 or 7 years, I have taken up interested in Egyptian, Ugartic/Canaanite and Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian literature/mythology, as well as Gnostic and Rabbinic Jewish literature.

But with all of these, literature, I have always relied on English translations. I got some experience from my research into these mythology and literature, and from creating Timeless Myths and Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have been wanting to start a new website, similar to that of Timeless Myths, but on Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Levant myths, but alas, I don't have the free time that I used to have.

Of course, my main interests in all these different literature is in the storytelling, not the religion (like customs, rituals) and not the laws (religious laws, codes, ethics, etc).

Anyway...

If there is a contradiction between the Quran and the Bible then scholars can look into the accuracy of it and how to reconcile both if it is possible to do so. Looking at the verse you have provided into it's original language will also help to clarify any confusion or misunderstanding.

Of course, but I only know one language - English. I know my limitation, and I respect anyone who read more than one language. The way I tried to resolve this, is to read or research not just one English translations, but several (or more).

When I reading the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament), I tends to favor the Tanakh from New Jewish Publication Society (NJPS, 1985) or New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) over the King James Version (KJV), because both translations take into consideration the latest Hebrew scholarship and compare the Masoretic Text (MT) against the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). It is possible (and I must stress "possible") to get the original context, through reading and comparing different translations. But the best solution would be able to read them in the original languages they were written in.

I don't know if you can read Hebrew, but here is Hebrew text of Exodus 2; and beside I like you; you know your own limitations, unlike other Muslims here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus+2&version=WLC)][/url]


11 וַיְהִ֣י ׀ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֗ם וַיִּגְדַּ֤ל מֹשֶׁה֙ וַיֵּצֵ֣א אֶל־אֶחָ֔יו וַיַּ֖רְא בְּסִבְלֹתָ֑ם וַיַּרְא֙ אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י מַכֶּ֥ה אִישׁ־עִבְרִ֖י מֵאֶחָֽיו׃

12 וַיִּ֤פֶן כֹּה֙ וָכֹ֔ה וַיַּ֖רְא כִּ֣י אֵ֣ין אִ֑ישׁ וַיַּךְ֙ אֶת־הַמִּצְרִ֔י וַֽיִּטְמְנֵ֖הוּ בַּחֹֽול׃

13 וַיֵּצֵא֙ בַּיֹּ֣ום הַשֵּׁנִ֔י וְהִנֵּ֛ה שְׁנֵֽי־אֲנָשִׁ֥ים עִבְרִ֖ים נִצִּ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לָֽרָשָׁ֔ע לָ֥מָּה תַכֶּ֖ה רֵעֶֽךָ׃

14 וַ֠יֹּאמֶר מִ֣י שָֽׂמְךָ֞ לְאִ֨ישׁ שַׂ֤ר וְשֹׁפֵט֙ עָלֵ֔ינוּ הַלְהָרְגֵ֙נִי֙ אַתָּ֣ה אֹמֵ֔ר כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר הָרַ֖גְתָּ אֶת־הַמִּצְרִ֑י וַיִּירָ֤א מֹשֶׁה֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר אָכֵ֖ן נֹודַ֥ע הַדָּבָֽר׃

15 וַיִּשְׁמַ֤ע פַּרְעֹה֙ אֶת־הַדָּבָ֣ר הַזֶּ֔ה וַיְבַקֵּ֖שׁ לַהֲרֹ֣ג אֶת־מֹשֶׁ֑ה וַיִּבְרַ֤ח מֹשֶׁה֙ מִפְּנֵ֣י פַרְעֹ֔ה וַיֵּ֥שֶׁב בְּאֶֽרֶץ־מִדְיָ֖ן וַיֵּ֥שֶׁב עַֽל־הַבְּאֵֽר׃

If you can read it, then you can compare the quote I had already given in post 86, and see if it is accurate or not. If you can't read the Hebrew source (Masoretic Text), then no problem.

 

[TashaN]

You put up half a definition in an attempt to say I was wrong!


You were wrong!


Kissing, fawning over, touching, a rock (as shown by the full definition) is IDOLATRY.


*

Please re-read the part you highlighted in red in your previous post.

 

[TashaN]

Universities such as Harvard and Yale, and years of reading, watching and devotion and passion to understand the real history from credible sources.

Can you give me an example of a historical error so i can better understand where you are coming from?

 

[TashaN]

Your not.

The point is, there are many aspects to religion that are not clear cut or defined neatly in one little box. And I know you know this.

I have no issues with you at all.

You rarely venture into a historical debate.


There are two things religion needs to avoid, science and history. The only reason being is that were still using 2000 ish year old books written by ancient men very ignorant to both.

Using these books wisely is the key, and the reason why I have no issue with you personally.

Religion helped a lot in the advance of science and history, don't forget that fact please.

 

[gnostic]

Religion helped a lot in the advance of science and history, don't forget that fact please.

Actually religion have little to do (or more likely nothing to do) with science or history.

The only things religions can do in the real world, is offer some forms of laws or ethical codes.

The Islamic science came from the contributions of individual Muslim scientists, mathematicians or philosophers (during the 9th to 12th century), not from the Qur'an (scripture) itself. The Qur'an has no merit in science.

And the Qur'an's narratives (like the Christian Bible) of prophets, from Adam to Jesus, is not history.

Both Qur'an and Bible are not science textbooks, nor history textbooks.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well, I am not an expert in the bible as well, but I have read the bible more than I have Qur'an.

(I have read the bible several times now, from cover to cover, of both OT and NT, but only read the Qur'an only once, again from cover to cover. But I have lost count the number of times I have read from Genesis to 1 Samuel, because this part of the bible is the most interesting to me.)

My expertise is not in the bible, but in classical literature and classical mythology, and I better than the average in medieval literature (and medieval legends and folklore). The last 6 or 7 years, I have taken up interested in Egyptian, Ugartic/Canaanite and Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian literature/mythology, as well as Gnostic and Rabbinic Jewish literature.

But with all of these, literature, I have always relied on English translations. I got some experience from my research into these mythology and literature, and from creating Timeless Myths and Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have been wanting to start a new website, similar to that of Timeless Myths, but on Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Levant myths, but alas, I don't have the free time that I used to have.

Of course, my main interests in all these different literature is in the storytelling, not the religion (like customs, rituals) and not the laws (religious laws, codes, ethics, etc).

Anyway...



Of course, but I only know one language - English. I know my limitation, and I respect anyone who read more than one language. The way I tried to resolve this, is to read or research not just one English translations, but several (or more).

When I reading the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament), I tends to favor the Tanakh from New Jewish Publication Society (NJPS, 1985) or New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) over the King James Version (KJV), because both translations take into consideration the latest Hebrew scholarship and compare the Masoretic Text (MT) against the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). It is possible (and I must stress "possible") to get the original context, through reading and comparing different translations. But the best solution would be able to read them in the original languages they were written in.

I don't know if you can read Hebrew, but here is Hebrew text of Exodus 2; and beside I like you; you know your own limitations, unlike other Muslims here:


If you can read it, then you can compare the quote I had already given in post 86, and see if it is accurate or not. If you can't read the Hebrew source (Masoretic Text), then no problem.

Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament)

But the best solution would be able to read them in the original languages they were written in.

Bible is not in the same Hebrew spoken by Moses; meaning of its words are a lot different than the Hebrew being spoken now and in which the present Hebrew Bible and its translation in English is available.

Please see the thread "Torah and "The extent to which we deceive ourselves …" started by Jayhawker Soule of Judaism religion.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/165855-torah-extent-we-deceive-ourselves.html

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Can you give me an example of a historical error so i can better understand where you are coming from?

Abraham and his family and Moses and the Exodus, are all said to have never existed. They have no historicity as ever existing, and historians claim they are literary creations.

No flood, no creation, no slaves in Egypt.

 

[outhouse]

Religion helped a lot in the advance of science and history, don't forget that fact please.

Not as much as they negatively impacted.


Your people were once the center of the scientific world, until a bad Iman who followed religion ruined everything roughly 1100 hundred year ago.

 

[outhouse]

Bible is not in the same Hebrew spoken by Moses;

Moses never existed as written, and is not responsible for any of the Israelites text.


So stop talking about another religion when you don't understand the topic.

 

[paarsurrey]

Abraham and his family and Moses and the Exodus, are all said to have never existed. They have no historicity as ever existing, and historians claim they are literary creations.

No flood, no creation, no slaves in Egypt.

And history is 100% correct???!!!
Even History is correct for the non-historic periods because one of our friends have read some history???!!!

Regards

 

[Ingledsva]

You put up half a definition in an attempt to say I was wrong!


You were wrong!


Kissing, fawning over, touching, a rock (as shown by the full definition) is IDOLATRY.

Please re-read the part you highlighted in red in your previous post.

You are going to have to be more specific, as to what you mean?


You answered my post - which said kissing or rubbing that black stone was IDOLATRY --

with a sentence implying I was wrong -


HOWEVER - you only gave half the definition -


the other half - which you did not post - showed I was correct.



*

 

[paarsurrey]

Well, I am not an expert in the bible as well, but I have read the bible more than I have Qur'an.

(I have read the bible several times now, from cover to cover, of both OT and NT, but only read the Qur'an only once, again from cover to cover. But I have lost count the number of times I have read from Genesis to 1 Samuel, because this part of the bible is the most interesting to me.)

My expertise is not in the bible, but in classical literature and classical mythology, and I better than the average in medieval literature (and medieval legends and folklore). The last 6 or 7 years, I have taken up interested in Egyptian, Ugartic/Canaanite and Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian literature/mythology, as well as Gnostic and Rabbinic Jewish literature.

But with all of these, literature, I have always relied on English translations. I got some experience from my research into these mythology and literature, and from creating Timeless Myths and Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have been wanting to start a new website, similar to that of Timeless Myths, but on Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Levant myths, but alas, I don't have the free time that I used to have.

Of course, my main interests in all these different literature is in the storytelling, not the religion (like customs, rituals) and not the laws (religious laws, codes, ethics, etc).

Anyway...



Of course, but I only know one language - English. I know my limitation, and I respect anyone who read more than one language. The way I tried to resolve this, is to read or research not just one English translations, but several (or more).

When I reading the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament), I tends to favor the Tanakh from New Jewish Publication Society (NJPS, 1985) or New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) over the King James Version (KJV), because both translations take into consideration the latest Hebrew scholarship and compare the Masoretic Text (MT) against the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). It is possible (and I must stress "possible") to get the original context, through reading and comparing different translations. But the best solution would be able to read them in the original languages they were written in.

I don't know if you can read Hebrew, but here is Hebrew text of Exodus 2; and beside I like you; you know your own limitations, unlike other Muslims here:


If you can read it, then you can compare the quote I had already given in post 86, and see if it is accurate or not. If you can't read the Hebrew source (Masoretic Text), then no problem.

There exists no Torah written in the original language of the time of Moses, while Moses was alive.

The Hebrews adopted the Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE. (Wikipedia)

Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[6] Jerome gives 1592 BCE, and Ussher 1619 BCE as his birth year.[7](Wikipedia)

So there is a gap of for 200-400 years when there was no written Torah.

A pertinent question; did a complete Torah in even Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE ever exist?

My answer is in the negative; and that would be the earliest written Torah.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

There exists no Torah written in the original language of the time of Moses, while Moses was alive.

The Hebrews adopted the Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE. (Wikipedia)

Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[6] Jerome gives 1592 BCE, and Ussher 1619 BCE as his birth year.[7](Wikipedia)

So there is a gap of for 200-400 years when there was no written Torah.

A pertinent question; did a complete Torah in even Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE ever exist?

My answer is in the negative; and that would be the earliest written Torah.

Regards

Stop posting things you know nothing about.

Since Israelites evolved from displaced Canaanites using their Semitic language is of no surprise.

Israelites did not exist unti after 1200 BC, at whish time they were simply proto Israelites

 

[gnostic]

Please re-read the part you highlighted in red in your previous post.

There are several highlights in red.

You were missing this line in

•extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

So, "someone" as in "Muhammad", or in the case for Christians - "Jesus".

Another name for idol worship of person (whether they be real as historic, or fictional or mythological) is "hero-worshipping", like a lot of Muslims do with "Muhammad".

In the list of synonyms to IDOL WORSHIP in Merriam-Webster definition, "hero-worshipping" or "hero worship" is one of them:

synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping

Here is a definition for HERO WORSHIP:

1: veneration of a hero
2: foolish or excessive adulation for an individual

Muhammad definitely fit in the category of "hero", and Muslims often treated him as god-like.

 

[CMike]

There exists no Torah written in the original language of the time of Moses, while Moses was alive.

The Hebrews adopted the Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE. (Wikipedia)

Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[6] Jerome gives 1592 BCE, and Ussher 1619 BCE as his birth year.[7](Wikipedia)

So there is a gap of for 200-400 years when there was no written Torah.

A pertinent question; did a complete Torah in even Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE ever exist?

My answer is in the negative; and that would be the earliest written Torah.

Regards

:no::sleep:

 

[TashaN]

Well, I am not an expert in the bible as well, but I have read the bible more than I have Qur'an.

(I have read the bible several times now, from cover to cover, of both OT and NT, but only read the Qur'an only once, again from cover to cover. But I have lost count the number of times I have read from Genesis to 1 Samuel, because this part of the bible is the most interesting to me.)

My expertise is not in the bible, but in classical literature and classical mythology, and I better than the average in medieval literature (and medieval legends and folklore). The last 6 or 7 years, I have taken up interested in Egyptian, Ugartic/Canaanite and Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian literature/mythology, as well as Gnostic and Rabbinic Jewish literature.

But with all of these, literature, I have always relied on English translations. I got some experience from my research into these mythology and literature, and from creating Timeless Myths and Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have been wanting to start a new website, similar to that of Timeless Myths, but on Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Levant myths, but alas, I don't have the free time that I used to have.

Of course, my main interests in all these different literature is in the storytelling, not the religion (like customs, rituals) and not the laws (religious laws, codes, ethics, etc).

Anyway...

Wow, we both have been here in RF for a long time and have engaged in several discussions but this is the first time i know these things about you. It's nice that you were willing to share them with us. I really appericiate your field of expertise. Now i understand you better and know where you are coming from more than anytime before.

It's really an interesting field and i'm eager to see your future website, or at least your blog at least since creating it is effortless.

Unlike you, i can't say i'm really an expert at anything. Nevertheless, i'm seriously considering digging further into sociology and possibly going back to school again although i have a degree in a totally different field which is IT.

Of course, but I only know one language - English. I know my limitation, and I respect anyone who read more than one language. The way I tried to resolve this, is to read or research not just one English translations, but several (or more).

When I reading the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament), I tends to favor the Tanakh from New Jewish Publication Society (NJPS, 1985) or New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) over the King James Version (KJV), because both translations take into consideration the latest Hebrew scholarship and compare the Masoretic Text (MT) against the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). It is possible (and I must stress "possible") to get the original context, through reading and comparing different translations. But the best solution would be able to read them in the original languages they were written in.

I don't know if you can read Hebrew, but here is Hebrew text of Exodus 2; and beside I like you; you know your own limitations, unlike other Muslims here:

If you can read it, then you can compare the quote I had already given in post 86, and see if it is accurate or not. If you can't read the Hebrew source (Masoretic Text), then no problem.

Unfortunately i can't read nor speak Hebrew. I'm still stuck with two languages only, English and of course my mother tongue, Arabic. I'm very lazy, and i hope i was as patient as you at diving into several translations and resources. I had only one version of the bible which was KJV and when i need a different translation i usually just check it out online.

Actually religion have little to do (or more likely nothing to do) with science or history.

The only things religions can do in the real world, is offer some forms of laws or ethical codes.

Not really. Religion has motivated many scientists to study and unveil the secrets of this world. It also motivated them in a very different way. It motivated some to be more spiritual and others to hate religion and try to find a way out through science. See! it all goes back to religion either way.

The Islamic science came from the contributions of individual Muslim scientists, mathematicians or philosophers (during the 9th to 12th century), not from the Qur'an (scripture) itself. The Qur'an has no merit in science.

Of course, i agree it's not the Scripture itself but their creed itself and belief system.

And the Qur'an's narratives (like the Christian Bible) of prophets, from Adam to Jesus, is not history.

Both Qur'an and Bible are not science textbooks, nor history textbooks.

I agree with you. They are not history per se. They just shed a light on what happened at scattered periods of human history and the major impact it made.

 

[TashaN]

Abraham and his family and Moses and the Exodus, are all said to have never existed. They have no historicity as ever existing, and historians claim they are literary creations.

No flood, no creation, no slaves in Egypt.

Can you please provide me with some resources about these claims?

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

You are going to have to be more specific, as to what you mean?


You answered my post - which said kissing or rubbing that black stone was IDOLATRY --

with a sentence implying I was wrong -


HOWEVER - you only gave half the definition -


the other half - which you did not post - showed I was correct.



*

Are you being serious here or you are just trying to have some fun?

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you being serious here or you are just trying to have some fun?

Obviously there is some kind of miscommunication going on, as I have no idea what you are talking about/implying, etc.


As I said - tell me what your problem is, with what has been said?



*

 

[TashaN]

There are several highlights in red.

You were missing this line in


So, "someone" as in "Muhammad", or in the case for Christians - "Jesus".

Another name for idol worship of person (whether they be real as historic, or fictional or mythological) is "hero-worshipping", like a lot of Muslims do with "Muhammad".

In the list of synonyms to IDOL WORSHIP in Merriam-Webster definition, "hero-worshipping" or "hero worship" is one of them:
Here is a definition for HERO WORSHIP:


Muhammad definitely fit in the category of "hero", and Muslims often treated him as god-like.

I didn't miss the two sentences she highlighted in red:

2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something
•extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

We as Muslims have no immoderate attachment nor extreme admiration for the black stone in Mekkah.

That's why, in post #96 if you noticed, i told her "i agree with the above" and it include the part in red. i also pointed out it doesn't apply to Muslims. On the other hand, she said i skipped the *entire definition* on purpose although i provided the link for reference. :faint:

The same goes with Prophet Mohamed. We do love him and admire him but there is absolutely no comparison between him and God at all levels. He was a messenger of God. So we worship God, the sender, not the messenger. If we worship Mohamed, why would we have a difficulty to just say so as Christians do when they openly say they worship Jesus as well as God. We absolutely have nothing to hide when it comes to our religion. You can read the Quran itself to see how God speaks to Mohamed as nothing but a servant and messenger of God. In fact, Prophet Mohamed himself warned us of praising him as Christians do so and did his best to show he is nothing but a servant of God. all Muslims agree on this and there is no a single Muslim on earth as far as i know claim to worship Mohamed or try to equate him in anyway with God.