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The Golden rule or 'eye for an eye?'

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
So here we have I guess two different ethical trees, so to speak. Where to begin comparing them. So where do these things really show up in our day to day world, or how are they made to be building blocks of society. I assume first of all that these maxim-memes are somehow foundational to behavior, as myriad types of behavior will be produced as actions springing forth from them. Such is the case with all human beings, I think, that the foundational behavior of every individual can be broken down into a meme. Thus they can be seen as building blocks of the greater society.

Anyway, what are the results, what are the practices. When you take someone onto small claims court I assume you are engaging into a reciprocal relationship with them, that reciprocity being a basis in "an eye for an eye," trying to achieve that equation of hydraulic justice. The moral thing of it seems couched in logic, a mechanism which acts as a repellent against offenders, a negative action meets an aversive resistant. The argument against this was to conflate it with vengeance however, though arguably 'vengeance' is a thing unrestrained, thus it might instead have leanings toward such an idea as 'head for eye.' Obviously a moral reversal occurs somewhere in that. However, never would the keen allow themselves be fleeced.

Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity. It does however, find its sturdiest ground as an educational outreach, a bypass and claimant of higher civilization. Cold reciprocity can be bypassed it argues, if but the offender may be educated, incited to think or ruminate. Basically this incitement to ruminate is set to achieve two things, an ethical win-over of offending parties, and a societal turnover via the ancient reciprocal justice that can be done away with, cause and effect to broken down in a quadratic equation of brotherly love. So the argument is one of bypass, that learning can occur in conscious beings, in spite of wrongs but at the behest of greater consciousness, allowing for an expanded ability to circumvent natural reciprocity.
 
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Sees

Dragonslayer
So here we have I guess two different ethical trees, so to speak. Where to begin comparing them. So where do these things really show up in our day to day world, or how are they made to be building blocks of society. I assume first of all that these maxim-memes are somehow foundational to behavior, as myriad types of behavior will be produced as actions springing forth from them. Such is the case with all human beings, I think, that the foundational behavior of every individual can be broken down into a meme. Thus they can be seen as building blocks of the greater society.

Anyway, what are the results, what are the practices. When you take someone onto small claims court I assume you are engaging into a reciprocal relationship with them, that reciprocity being a basis in "an eye for an eye," trying to achieve that equation of hydraulic justice. The moral thing of it seems couched in logic, a mechanism which acts as a repellent against offenders, a negative action meets an aversive resistant. The argument against this was to conflate it with vengeance however, though arguably 'vengeance' is a thing unrestrained, thus it might instead have leanings toward such an idea as 'head for eye.' Obviously a moral reversal occurs somewhere in that. However, never would the keen allow themselves be fleeced.

Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity. It does however, find its sturdiest ground as an educational outreach, a bypass and claimant of higher civilization. Cold reciprocity can be bypassed it argues, if but the offender may be educated, incited to think or ruminate. Basically this incitement to ruminate is set to achieve two things, an ethical win-over of offending parties, and a societal turnover via the ancient reciprocal justice that can be done away with, cause and effect to broken down in a quadratic equation of brotherly love. So the argument is one of bypass, that learning can occur in conscious beings, in spite of wrongs but at the behest of greater consciousness, allowing for an expanded ability to circumvent natural reciprocity.

Goodness...

Not sure what all the dragging on and fancying is about or how you come up with stuff like this > "Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity."
 

Mequa

Neo-Epicurean
The problem with "eye for an eye" mentality, is that in the hands of someone mentally unstable, it becomes justification to bully someone for a purely imagined personal slight (against them or their buddy buddies).

The problem with "turn the other cheek" mentality, is that in the hands of a sociopathic bully, it becomes justification for the mentality that anyone they (or their buddy buddies) steamroll over should just know their place and never fight back.

The worst kind of people will resort to both of the above, in my experience.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Not sure what all the dragging on and fancying is about or how you come up with stuff like this > "Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity."

Well, it technically is altering the course of natural reciprocity significantly, humankind was not actually born alongside such ideas as they had to manifest them post an advanced genesis of philology. Early social reasoning lacked the social sophistication to attribute a treating better of those whom are doing you a wrong an intrinsic good, as something that could extricate mankind from the plight of poor interrelations that beset them.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
If we all believed in the eye to eye, we would all be blind.

I generally agree, however, the caveat is that if we all believed in turning the other cheek we'd all soon have cruel masters. Our society seems to integrate both however, those who engage their trespassers and perhaps grow to become trespassers, and unfortunately a strong foundation of people on the bottom, of whom the golden rule taken to an extreme extent may stultify from standing up to anything.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The problem with "eye for an eye" mentality, is that in the hands of someone mentally unstable, it becomes justification to bully someone for a purely imagined personal slight (against them or their buddy buddies).

The problem with "turn the other cheek" mentality, is that in the hands of a sociopathic bully, it becomes justification for the mentality that anyone they (or their buddy buddies) steamroll over should just know their place and never fight back.

The worst kind of people will resort to both of the above, in my experience.

Well, the checks and balances are what the golden rule, one might argue, has attempted to navigate through great intellectual artifice - it claims impenetrability and that is what history has been testing in it for a while now. History will tell us which best deflects those who choose to pit themselves against its social structures.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Goodness...

Not sure what all the dragging on and fancying is about or how you come up with stuff like this > "Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity."

Someone, anyone, please tell me that I'm the only one who fears this guy might be different breed of Mohmmad.
 
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Mequa

Neo-Epicurean
I suspect "an eye for an eye" is more about proportionate punishment or justice than it is about vengeance.
Indeed it is. The original purpose of this, the "Law of Talion" or "Lex Talionis", was to constrain retaliation to no greater than the original offence.

The ugly side of human nature is to seek a head for an eye. This "law" was, historically, an attempt to check this tendency to limit the harm done by escalation and blood feuds.

The problem with implementing it is that people are often somewhat biased when deciding what makes for proportionate (or disproportionate) punishment.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
"Eye for eye" is mentioned in 3 places in the Hebrew Scriptures. Ex 21:24, Le 24:20, and De 19:21.
But it was never given as a rule to be used in personal vengeance. Always it was attached to some judicial court arrangement.

"If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality (or "serious injury") results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, (or "soul for soul") eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow." - Ex 21:24

"If a man takes a human life, (or "fatally strikes any human soul") he should be put to death without fail. Anyone who strikes and kills a domestic animal should make compensation for it, life for life. If a man injures his fellow man, then what he has done should be done to him. Fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, the same sort of injury he inflicted should be inflicted on him. The man who strikes and kills an animal should make compensation for it, but the one who strikes and kills a man should be put to death. One judicial decision will apply for you, whether a foreign resident or a native, because I am Jehovah your God." - Le 24:17-22

"The judges will thoroughly investigate, and if the man who testified is a false witness and has brought a false charge against his brother, you should do to him just as he had schemed to do to his brother, and you must remove what is bad from your midst. Those who remain will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything bad like this among you. You (Lit., "Your eye") should not feel sorry. Life will be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." - De 19:18-21]

Jesus also made it clear that the phrase "eye for eye" was not be put to personal use, but a careful reading of the context of the Hebrew Scriptures shows he was not saying anything new. People who wanted vengeance had merely read into the Scriptures a justification for their wrong behavior.

"You heard that it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; and if someone in authority compels you into service fore a mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
 
So here we have I guess two different ethical trees, so to speak. Where to begin comparing them. So where do these things really show up in our day to day world, or how are they made to be building blocks of society. I assume first of all that these maxim-memes are somehow foundational to behavior, as myriad types of behavior will be produced as actions springing forth from them. Such is the case with all human beings, I think, that the foundational behavior of every individual can be broken down into a meme. Thus they can be seen as building blocks of the greater society.

Anyway, what are the results, what are the practices. When you take someone onto small claims court I assume you are engaging into a reciprocal relationship with them, that reciprocity being a basis in "an eye for an eye," trying to achieve that equation of hydraulic justice. The moral thing of it seems couched in logic, a mechanism which acts as a repellent against offenders, a negative action meets an aversive resistant. The argument against this was to conflate it with vengeance however, though arguably 'vengeance' is a thing unrestrained, thus it might instead have leanings toward such an idea as 'head for eye.' Obviously a moral reversal occurs somewhere in that. However, never would the keen allow themselves be fleeced.

Now for the Golden rule, this maxim is not bedded in logic, nor is it a method of reciprocity. It does however, find its sturdiest ground as an educational outreach, a bypass and claimant of higher civilization. Cold reciprocity can be bypassed it argues, if but the offender may be educated, incited to think or ruminate. Basically this incitement to ruminate is set to achieve two things, an ethical win-over of offending parties, and a societal turnover via the ancient reciprocal justice that can be done away with, cause and effect to broken down in a quadratic equation of brotherly love. So the argument is one of bypass, that learning can occur in conscious beings, in spite of wrongs but at the behest of greater consciousness, allowing for an expanded ability to circumvent natural reciprocity.


There is so much verbiage and so many random collocations of words in that post that I decided to use some of it to create an album by a high school heavy metal band:

Band: Hydraulic Justice
Album: Incitement to ruminate

Track list:

1. Ethical trees
2. Maxim-memes
3. Aversive resistant
4. 'Vengeance' is a thing unrestrained
5. A moral reversal
6. Cold reciprocity
7. Repellent against offenders
8. Ancient reciprocal justice
9. A quadratic equation of brotherly love
10. At the behest of greater consciousness
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Eye for an eye" may have been useful in preventing intertribal vendetta amongst bronze age goatherds, but in today's society it's problematic.
The craving for it, however, remains deeply ensconced in the human psyche.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I suspect "an eye for an eye" is more about proportionate punishment or justice than it is about vengeance.
In fact, it sets constraints on the exercise of vengeance. To quote Wikipedia: "In the Code of Hammurabi and Hebrew Law, the “eye for eye” was to restrict compensation to the value of the loss."

Also, ...

Judaism

Isaac Kalimi explains that the “lex talionis was humanized by the Rabbis who interpreted "an eye for an eye" to mean reasonable pecuniary compensation. As in the case of the Babylonian 'lex talionis', ethical Judaism and humane Jewish jurisprudence replaces the peshat (literal meaning) of the written Torah. Pasachoff and Littman point to the reinterpretation of the lex talionis as an example of the ability of Pharisaic Judaism to "adapt to changing social and intellectual ideas."

Talmud

The Talmud interprets the verses referring to "an eye for an eye" and similar expressions as mandating monetary compensation in tort cases and argues against the interpretations by Sadducees that the Bible verses refer to physical retaliation in kind, using the argument that such an interpretation would be inapplicable to blind or eyeless offenders. Since the Torah requires that penalties be universally applicable, the phrase cannot be interpreted in this manner.

Taking ayin tachat ayin out of its historical context and ignoring its application is little more than infantile bible-bashing.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Someone, anyone, please tell me that I'm the only one who fears this guy might be different breed of Mohmmad.

Not sure what you mean by that, but reciprocity is rewarding a positive action with positive action, but negative action wouldn't be rewarded as such. The Golden Rule would have one reward all actions positively, even if someone treats you poorly you must still treat them the way you'd wish they'd rather do unto you.
 
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Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I would not want an eye for an eye. If someone does something wrong, justice should be served and the punishment should fit the crime. I'm not the vengeful type even against horrible people. I want justice, not vengeance.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
"You heard that it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; and if someone in authority compels you into service fore a mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Then there is the 'heaping coals' verse from Paul, which would turn all that into deceit. But I don't really believe Paul was the spokesman of Jesus since things like that pop up, and they seem so discordant with passages like the one who quoted above. Maybe something to analyze in another thread.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I would not want an eye for an eye. If someone does something wrong, justice should be served and the punishment should fit the crime. I'm not the vengeful type even against horrible people. I want justice, not vengeance.

Well, 'eye for an eye' is a metaphor for an equal exchange, you see that right? It is not head for an eye, but eye for an eye. You steal my coat, you go to court and pay up for a new coat. Not a new coat, hat, boots, scarf, etc.
 
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