The good atheist

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can you give me a good reason why an Atheist who never did anything wrong in life, who was a good person, helping everyone else first, before helping him/her self.
Who gave his/her money to the homeless so they could gain a better life.
Who even gave their own life selflessly to save someone else

Would not be seen by God and taken in to heaven when he/she died.

I will give you one good reason, @Seeker of White Light, but I don't think you will like it.

I think the reason is that this is a fiction, written by humans, who would very much like to believe that their god likes them a whole bunch more than he likes everybody else.

I have said, in these forums and long before I arrived here, that no entity that could truly be considered "God" would not understand as absolutely axiomatic that beings created with "free will" will understand everything -- their hopes, their dreams, what they've observed, their logic, their emotional reactions, everything -- in the same way as every other of His created beings. We will differ tremendously.

And that, as a consequence of that, if there were such a deity (you know I do not believe that there is), that God would not differentiate between people who came honestly to whatever conclusions that they did.

I agree that such a God might not look kindly on someone who, knowing better, harmed his fellows. But I do not agree that such a God would expect everybody to believe the same thing -- unless that God were willing to appear to each and every one of us, individually, and teach us what He wanted.

And that is a very central problem of religion, in my view.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This OP was mean in the way that

If God does exist, why would God not bring a more or less perfect human being in to heaven, just because that person did not believe in God?

Probable a lot of believers are not going to heaven due to the way they lived their life accussing others of sins as an example

The OP was certainly NOT mean. In fact, it was one of the more honest and searching questions that I've seen in a while on these forums.

 

[Bird123]

I don't agree..
We can fear human beings, but not God?

It is more about having respect, and fearing the consequences of disobedience.
It is about responsibility .. to ourselves and others.
Faith is in 2 parts. Hope in God's infinite Mercy, and fear of His Wrath.

However, God is not a "superior person" who tells us what to do.
God is not comparable to any of His creatures.
We cannot fathom what God actually is .. we just know God exists.
A superior "something" that is the Creator and Maintainer of the universe and all it contains.
Without God, nothing would exist.

So God does not torture us as a person would torture another.
We wrong our own souls and cause our own distress.

Sounds like you have been well conditioned by religion. You value so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Example Respect might, Rules, Disobedience, Anger, Wrath, Blame, Judging, Condemning, Punishing, Intimidating, and using Fear,

Your next assumption is that God is unknowable and yet you already know God and do not realize it.

I would say forget everything you know about God and start over and Discover what actually is.

God has made no rules for anyone's choices. God will never intimidate or coerce anyone's choices. God will never punish for anyone's choices, however God will return one's choices and actions back to one so that one might Discover what one's actions really mean. When one Understands all sides, Intelligence will make the Best choices. It's Education at it's best.

You are right about one thing. Without a certain amount of Understanding, most would just be confused with a conversation with God. I find very few want to hear what is, over what they believe. Further, God works on multiple levels with multiple views. Indeed, it is a Stretch. Still, after death, each will go to God and nothing will have to be said. Communication at it's best.

Finally, all Fear is generated from the Unknown. If one does not want to Fear, one needs to work at Discovery.

God has never ever been One we need to Fear!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Spirit of Light]

I will give you one good reason, @Seeker of White Light, but I don't think you will like it.

I think the reason is that this is a fiction, written by humans, who would very much like to believe that their god likes them a whole bunch more than he likes everybody else.

I have said, in these forums and long before I arrived here, that no entity that could truly be considered "God" would not understand as absolutely axiomatic that beings created with "free will" will understand everything -- their hopes, their dreams, what they've observed, their logic, their emotional reactions, everything -- in the same way as every other of His created beings. We will differ tremendously.

And that, as a consequence of that, if there were such a deity (you know I do not believe that there is), that God would not differentiate between people who came honestly to whatever conclusions that they did.

I agree that such a God might not look kindly on someone who, knowing better, harmed his fellows. But I do not agree that such a God would expect everybody to believe the same thing -- unless that God were willing to appear to each and every one of us, individually, and teach us what He wanted.

And that is a very central problem of religion, in my view.

Actually i do like your answer, because you are an atheist your reply to these kind of questions do have value to me. I can learn how atheists think about "what if"

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do not agree that such a God would expect everybody to believe the same thing -- unless that God were willing to appear to each and every one of us, individually, and teach us what He wanted.

There is no need for that.. [God 'talking' to each and every one of us]
Almighty God has created us with intelligence.

We can use our intelligence for many different purposes.
It is our own responsibility to educate ourselves in life.

God does not take anybody to task for that which eludes us and is beyond our control. He knows who is sincere and who is not.
However, ignorance of "the law" is not a valid excuse.

 

[Spirit of Light]

There is no need for that.. [God 'talking' to each and every one of us]
Almighty God has created us with intelligence.

We can use our intelligence for many different purposes.
It is our own responsibility to educate ourselves in life.

God does not take anybody to task for that which eludes us and is beyond our control. He knows who is sincere and who is not.
However, ignorance of "the law" is not a valid excuse.

Isn't that between God an each person? Not based on what religion one follows?

 

[muhammad_isa]

God has made no rules for anyone's choices..

What does that mean?
Are you saying that God has not given mankind any guidance by sending us messengers/prophets with their scriptures?

If so, then you are "a disbeliever" .. you simply guess without sure knowledge about God. Not a good idea, imo.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Isn't that between God an each person? Not based on what religion one follows?

Of course.
I don't think that I have made any references to a particular creed in this thread.
I might be wrong..

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What does that mean?
Are you saying that God has not given mankind any guidance by sending us messengers/prophets with their scriptures?

If so, then you are "a disbeliever" .. you simply guess without sure knowledge about God. Not a good idea, imo.

I share @Bird123's view, and I do not accept that God has sent "messengers." I think a bunch of deluded humans fancied themselves as the mouthpieces of a deity, nothing else.

The reason for this is simple history -- look at the religions (and the religious divisions) of earth -- they are all over the place, and they disagree with each other far, far too much. Any omniscient deity would know for an absolute certainty that this is what would result, and therefore would not choose this silly method -- unless that deity was also evil and wanted us to kill each other for all eternity.

 

[HonestJoe]

God might also accept those who don't worship Him.

Sure, and you're free to believe that but plenty of people apparently don't and that appears to be the basis of the OP question so I replied in that context.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I do not accept that God has sent "messengers." I think a bunch of deluded humans fancied themselves as the mouthpieces of a deity, nothing else.

The reason for this is simple history -- look at the religions (and the religious divisions) of earth -- they are all over the place, and they disagree with each other far, far too much.

That is not true.
55% of the world's population are Christians and Muslims.
Judaism is the root of both. i.e. Abrahamic religion
..and there are mosques and churches in practically every nation.

The prophets of all three are identical, apart from the obvious disbelief in Jesus or Muhammad bla bla.

Other religions, might well have their roots in the same One God, but are no longer recognisable, as they have changed/evolved over 1000's of years.
Some religions aren't even about the Divine.

Any omniscient deity would know for an absolute certainty that this is what would result..

Of course. God knows that many people will turn away from truth, and be more interested in "the flesh"

..and therefore would not choose this silly method -- unless that deity was also evil and wanted us to kill each other for all eternity.

Are you sure that it is not you, that is a fool .. and not God?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That is not true.
55% of the world's population are Christians and Muslims.
Judaism is the root of both. i.e. Abrahamic religion
..and there are mosques and churches in practically every nation.

The prophets of all three are identical, apart from the obvious disbelief in Jesus or Muhammad bla bla.

Other religions, might well have their roots in the same One God, but are no longer recognisable, as they have changed/evolved over 1000's of years.
Some religions aren't even about the Divine.



Of course. God knows that many people will turn away from truth, and be more interested in "the flesh"


Are you sure that it is not you, that is a fool .. and not God?

Oh, good. I'm so glad to hear that news of the Christian martyrs in Rome, the Crusades, the horrendous death tolls from the Reformation and Counter Reformation, the attacks of 9/11 and so forth never happened, because all those religions, all this time, have been so buddy-buddy and agreed on almost everything.

I wonder how all those history books got written, when none of it was true. Strange, eh?

 

[muhammad_isa]

all those religions, all this time, have been so buddy-buddy and agreed on almost everything..

You refer to the nature of human beings.
i.e. they are violent in their love of wealth.

Now, you might say that they are violent in their love of God.
No .. mankind are often ignorant .. tribal .. and greedy etc.

In any case, you deflect the conversation away from what religion teaches,
and towards mankind's weaknesses.

 

[Bird123]

What does that mean?
Are you saying that God has not given mankind any guidance by sending us messengers/prophets with their scriptures?

If so, then you are "a disbeliever" .. you simply guess without sure knowledge about God. Not a good idea, imo.

God has sent no messengers or prophets for guidance. Further, If God wanted one to know something, why use a book written by mankind when implanting the information would not only be easier, Implanting would also guarantee everyone got a copy.

One must only read holy books to know they do not come from God. They reflect mankind more than anything else.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. When all the facts are not known, they use beliefs to patch the gap. The only problem now is beliefs are all they value.

Guessing? Little ole me??? Far from it. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. I have spent years upon years studying God's actions. When one opens one door, it leads to more doors that can be opened. Putting the pieces together, understanding the why and in time. one comes to understand God.

At this point, the math might add up and the pieces fit together to form a very good picture of God, however one is still dealing with beliefs. On the other hand, at a certain level of understanding, one might just get a visit from God. God will no longer be a belief at this point.

God doesn't just give knowledge out. This is an action of God. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. In short, one must have it nearly all figured out before God's visit. Further, if God's visit would intimidate one's choices, the visit would never happen simply because that would defeat the purpose of God's system that is in place.

Discovery takes a lot of effort and work. Further, each must decide the journey they want to take. Me? Early in life, I discovered so much of those holy books didn't add up. I have always been one who had to Know rather than value and depend on beliefs.

Not a good idea??? Hardly, for there is no limit to the knowledge one can acquire. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. God is hiding nothing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I share @Bird123's view, and I do not accept that God has sent "messengers." I think a bunch of deluded humans fancied themselves as the mouthpieces of a deity, nothing else.

The reason for this is simple history -- look at the religions (and the religious divisions) of earth -- they are all over the place, and they disagree with each other far, far too much. Any omniscient deity would know for an absolute certainty that this is what would result, and therefore would not choose this silly method -- unless that deity was also evil and wanted us to kill each other for all eternity.

Yes, I can see math in your words. On the other hand, religion does serve a purpose. Religion is a catalyst that brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. After all, when one thinks one has God's blessing, one can justify anything. As you say: One only needs to look upon simple history.

This catalyst is not done. One only needs to see so many of the petty things people value to see there is a long way to go. On the other hand, there is no time limit for learning.

I say copy God. Place truth and knowledge in the world so that it will be there when others are ready to Discover it. Discovery can never be a forced, intimidated or coerced thing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[F1fan]

Why do some of you refer to a God as if it is real and you know anything about it?

Every time I read someone write something about God as if they know anything I stop and wonder: this guy has no facts, how can you assert anything?

In all honesty none of us can say anything, unless we admit to guessing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why do some of you refer to a God as if it is real and you know anything about it?

Every time I read someone write something about God as if they know anything I stop and wonder: you have no facts, how can you assert anything?

In all honesty none of us can say anything, unless we admit to guessing.

Because we believe in God and God's existence. One believe in the scriptures and the little it explain what God is.

 

[F1fan]

Because we believe in God and God's existence. One believe in the scriptures and the little it explain what God is.

None of that strikes you as contrary to an honest approach? Yeah, you believe it. But why? What is authentic about the belief? Or is it fear of what you will be without it?

 

[Spirit of Light]

None of that strikes you as contrary to an honest approach? Yeah, you believe it. But why? What is authentic about the belief? Or is it fear of what you will be without it?

I believe because I have read scriptures, not only one but many of them. I believe due to episodes in my life where I asked God for help and got it, that does not mean it was in a physical way, even that too happed.
I believe because I find truth in the scriptures (all of them)
You always ask for physical evidence or proof, personally I do not need that in my faith.

But you already know, faith and belief are very personal to each believer.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God has sent no messengers or prophets for guidance. Further, If God wanted one to know something, why use a book written by mankind when implanting the information would not only be easier, Implanting would also guarantee everyone got a copy.

Well, we are all "implanted", as in we have been given a conscience .. a sense of morality.
Of course, it is complex in the sense that we are able to use our intelligence to make specific values, but our subconscience exists that could be seen as "an implant".

There is nothing sinister about God choosing unusually righteous people and inspiring them etc.
Over 50% of the world's population are Christians or Muslims.
You may dismiss them as ignorant blind followers, but I do not.
What is it in the guidance of Jesus or Muhammad, peace be with them, that you despise?