The Good, the Bad and God

[metis]

It shows the way forward and God says, I will appointed you leaders, so don't follow leaders aside from these.

But, you see, that's the same exact thing you're speaking out against since it makes no real difference if the source is verbal today or written thousands of years ago.

Obviously, you can probably pick up the fact that I do not accept scriptural inerrancy within any religion, thus I tend to question any and all such sources.

 

[Link]

But, you see, that's the same exact thing you're speaking out against since it makes no real difference if the source is verbal today or written thousands of years ago.

Obviously, you can probably pick up the fact that I do not accept scriptural inerrancy within any religion, thus I tend to question any and all such sources.

This is the unity God told his Prophet to say to the people of the book. He says, okay, don't know if I'm a real Prophet that's fine, just Worship God sincerely and not take others as lords beside God, according to both Sunni and Shiite hadiths unanimously, this was interpreted by the Prophet and his family, to mean as what I said, scholars making good evil and evil good and they being followed despite that.

If all humans agree on this part, we can dialogue and eventually come to the truth. We won't as long as we divide and hate to worship idols.

 

[metis]

This is the unity God told his Prophet to say to the people of the book. He says, okay, don't know if I'm a real Prophet that's fine, just Worship God sincerely and not take others as lords beside God, according to both Sunni and Shiite hadiths unanimously, this was interpreted by the Prophet and his family, to mean as what I said, scholars making good evil and evil good and they being followed despite that.

I don't believe that God is of one religion or another, nor do I believe that any religion has some sort of monopoly on the Truth.

To me, religion is an attempt to understand God (or Gods), thus tolerance of different religions and denominations I believe is the best way to go, as long as they "do no harm".

 

[Link]

I don't believe that God is of one religion or another, nor do I believe that any religion has some sort of monopoly on the Truth.

To me, religion is an attempt to understand God (or Gods), thus tolerance of different religions and denominations I believe is the best way to go, as long as they "do no harm".

Then we are in agreement, and if more people think like you, then humans will come closer to truth.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The bible attributes a formidable number of atrocities to God. As a small sample –

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, miliary victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”
​

In Plato’s dialog Euthyphro, Socrates asks Euthyphro to explain τὸ ὅσιον to hosion – that which is pious, proper, permissible, good – to him. This is commonly simplified in English to ‘good’ and the relevant question of Socrates is expressed as –

"Is good loved by the gods because it is good? Or is it good because it is loved by the gods?"​

Some Christians maintain both that the bible is inerrant and that God is entirely good, which is to say, a thing is good because God approves of it, and conversely bad because God disapproves of it.

In that case, all the instances above must be examples of good, because they’re infallibly attributed to the Christian God.

I find every one of the examples (and many more like them not listed) to be morally repulsive, truly vile.

Is God right, or am I?

Your sermon has one point; your OP subject line is misleading. Here I thought you'd say something nice about Jesus. Only bad in the Bible, though, right?

 

[1213]

...

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape....​

​

I think that is repulsive lie. Numbers 31:9-17 has no word rape. But I don’t think it is repulsive, if God would kill unrighteous and evil people.

 

[PruePhillip]

The bible attributes a formidable number of atrocities to God. As a small sample –

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, miliary victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”
​

In Plato’s dialog Euthyphro, Socrates asks Euthyphro to explain τὸ ὅσιον to hosion – that which is pious, proper, permissible, good – to him. This is commonly simplified in English to ‘good’ and the relevant question of Socrates is expressed as –

"Is good loved by the gods because it is good? Or is it good because it is loved by the gods?"​

Some Christians maintain both that the bible is inerrant and that God is entirely good, which is to say, a thing is good because God approves of it, and conversely bad because God disapproves of it.

In that case, all the instances above must be examples of good, because they’re infallibly attributed to the Christian God.

I find every one of the examples (and many more like them not listed) to be morally repulsive, truly vile.

Is God right, or am I?

You didn't mention the two exiles of the Jews - first to Babylon for 70 years and then to the
whole world for nearly 2,000 years. During this second exile the Jews were driven out of at
least 120 nations and suffered the deaths of maybe ten million people. God said he bring the
Jews back to Israel "a second time" from the nations that were their "graves."
When would this take place? Jesus said when the "times of the Gentiles is finished." So there's
the implied suffering of Gentiles too.
Whether you think God is "immoral" for doing what He will to His creation - it doesn't change the
fact there's a God. This "immorality" was prophesized and helps demonstrate God's existence
and God's will.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me.

 

[MJFlores]

Is God right, or am I?

Israel's enemies in those times were the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than Israel.

Israel's enemies must have been civil, dandy and gay in their conduct of war. Their generals must have been skilled in the art of dress making and culinary arts. They must be following the Geneva Convention or a set of international laws for the humane treatment of wounded or captured military personnel, medical personnel and non-military civilians during war or armed conflicts. Did they have those?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The bible attributes a formidable number of atrocities to God. As a small sample –

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, miliary victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”
​

In Plato’s dialog Euthyphro, Socrates asks Euthyphro to explain τὸ ὅσιον to hosion – that which is pious, proper, permissible, good – to him. This is commonly simplified in English to ‘good’ and the relevant question of Socrates is expressed as –

"Is good loved by the gods because it is good? Or is it good because it is loved by the gods?"​

Some Christians maintain both that the bible is inerrant and that God is entirely good, which is to say, a thing is good because God approves of it, and conversely bad because God disapproves of it.

In that case, all the instances above must be examples of good, because they’re infallibly attributed to the Christian God.

I find every one of the examples (and many more like them not listed) to be morally repulsive, truly vile.

Is God right, or am I?

God is right.

God is also the biggest internet troll well before the internet is invented. And the New Testament as much as says this.

God gives upwards of 612+ rules to be followed, not counting rules you mentioned about selling slaves or whatever.

But, as you say, many of these rules really ought to get a second glance and not be followed blindly like many Jews do. That is to say,Christianity was a reform meant to address this Law, and specifically to give an out to everyone not following it.

Let's given you an example:
-There is currently a law in many states in response to COVID-19 demanding people wear masks, or possibly be denied service. Seems straightforward right? Wear masks and you protect people, right? Right...?
- Except there isn't. There are laws against the wearing of masks, most of which are in the exact countries trying to tell people to do this (US, Europe, Russia, Australia, Canada). Why? Because armed robbers and thugs (such as the KKK) tend to wear masks.

As you can see, the only way to actually obey two contradictory laws is to simply avoid shopping entirely! But this is not a viable option for long. Sooner or later, you will get hungry or thirsty, and need to shop for something. To say nothing of all of the people who get treated like 3rd class citizens because they couldn't find a mask anywhere, or couldn't wear a mask because of dust/mold allergies. All of these people, in the name of safety, are being rejected, tossed out, or asked to starve.

There are clearly things that will get you arrested. But if you live according to the Law, you will always be guilty. The Law is set up so that you will fail to follow it. This is the meaning of Grace. God knows the Law is unjust (see the slavery example above), God knows the person trying to follow the law is sinful. God expects us to come tell him when when our efforts screw up.

So yea, basically, God's an internet troll getting laws that are evil or don't make sense (the calf in its mother's milk doesn't apply to eating fish with roe, or chicken with a fried egg on top). You're not gonna measure up.

 

[blü 2]

mIss-applications,
Christophobia
Tanakophobia
lacking in substance...

So... God.

So as long as you think God approved them ─

invasive wars
massacres of populations
rape, not least mass rape
human sacrifice
slavery
women as property
murder
religious discrimination
antisemitism
and so on​

are morally fine by you?

That wasn't my impression of you so you greatly surprise me. I'll know better in future.

 

[Kenny]

So as long as you think God approved them ─

invasive wars
massacres of populations
rape, not least mass rape
human sacrifice
slavery
women as property
murder
religious discrimination
antisemitism
and so on​

are morally fine by you?

That wasn't my impression of you so you greatly surprise me. I'll know better in future.

And I'm sure your view would be for the raping of Nanking during WWII.

 

[blü 2]

Looks like you’ve been reading up on one of the many anti-God websites where they love to pull verses out of context and show how “evil God is”.

I checked the references to the rules of slavery on the net. Otherwise, all the examples are from my own notes.

Though I don't know why that should make any difference ─ the book says what it says.

Obviously, if the God which the Bible reveals as all-wise, all-knowing and the Source of love and justice, then you are missing something because if your limited understanding of the reasons God brings judgement

The reasons are obvious ─ the moralities of the Bronze Age, and of and after the Babylonian captivity, and of the Roman era, as reflected in the bible, are different to those of the First World in the 21st century (except perhaps for anti-semitism, one of Christianity;s more enduring creations).

But you say that since God has approved them, they're fine moral examples for us all.

And I repeat what I said earlier, I find the examples I cited (and more) morally repulsive.

and/or allows humans the freedom to make choices

So do you intend to sacrifice your daughter to God? Or are you just going to sell her?

My view is that God is right. He alone has all the information, not you.

How do you know God has all the information? The bible doesn't say that.

Indeed, how would God know [he] was omniscient? How could [he] be certain that there was nothing [he] didn't know [he] didn't know?

 

[blü 2]

And I'm sure your view would be for the raping of Nanking during WWII.

No, you're the one who approves of mass rape and massacre of conquered populations, the total destruction of your enemies so you can take their land ─ just as the bible says and just as the OP references.

 

[blü 2]

Your sermon has one point; your OP subject line is misleading. Here I thought you'd say something nice about Jesus. Only bad in the Bible, though, right?

On the exact contrary, bad here and now.

You must be very sad that human sacrifice is illegal in the First World these days. I'm not.

As for Jesus, please tell me why his death was necessary, and what actually was different as a result. What did it accomplish that one snap of God's omnipotent fingers couldn't?

 

[blü 2]

I think that is repulsive lie. Numbers 31:9-17 has no word rape. But I don’t think it is repulsive, if God would kill unrighteous and evil people.

You think? The text says ─

Numbers 31:9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. [...] 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army [...] who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
​

I see no hint in the text that any consent by the girls was required.

(Don't you find the massacre itself morally vile?)

 

[blü 2]

Israel's enemies in those times were the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than Israel.

So because the US is larger and stronger than Mexico, the Mexicans should invade, sack, massacre and rape? Interesting thought.

Your video clip is right on the point, by the way. Nice work!

Israel's enemies must have been civil, dandy and gay in their conduct of war. Their generals must have been skilled in the art of dress making and culinary arts. They must be following the Geneva Convention or a set of international laws for the humane treatment of wounded or captured military personnel, medical personnel and non-military civilians during war or armed conflicts. Did they have those?

We're not really concerned about the practices and practicalities of making war in the Bronze Age. I accept that that's how things were done, in the bible, and in Gilgamesh and the Iliad and even de bello Gallico and so on.

Rather I'm concerned about the relevance of biblical morality to 2020.

 

[blü 2]

God is right.

Far right, you mean?

So yea, basically, God's an internet troll getting laws that are evil or don't make sense (the calf in its mother's milk doesn't apply to eating fish with roe, or chicken with a fried egg on top). You're not gonna measure up.

Don't you just hate what the milk does to your fried egg on toast!

 

[Kenny]

No, you're the one who approves of mass rape and massacre of conquered populations, the total destruction of your enemies so you can take their land ─ just as the bible says and just as the OP references.

No, I think it is you that approved of the rape of Nanking.

There is an analogy if you look deep enough.

 

[blü 2]

No, I think it is you that approved of the rape of Nanking.

There is an analogy if you look deep enough.

The "rape of Nanking" was the conquest of Nanking in 1939 in the course of the Japanese invasions of China. An unknown number in excess of 40,000, and probably 200,000 or more, of unarmed citizens were murdered by troops of the Imperial Japanese Army; and systematic organized rape, frequently followed by murder, of women followed, with perhaps 20,000 instances.

Straight out of the handbook God gave Joshua and Moses.

And morally vile, grossly repugnant.