The Gospel - Is it only that Jesus died or is it that we celebrate The Resurrection?

[Kenny]

Yep. But you can't call it a sacrifice though.

Doesn’t it depend on what one defines a sacrifice as?

If a man gives up his time with his family to protect his country - people call that a sacrifice.

if one says “I sacrificed a lot of fun to get out of debt” - it was still a sacrifice even though now he is having fun being out of debt

 

[Twilight Hue]

Doesn’t it depend on what one defines a sacrifice as?

If a man gives up his time with his family to protect his country - people call that a sacrifice.

if one says “I sacrificed a lot of fun to get out of debt” - it was still a sacrifice even though now he is having fun being out of debt

Do they get any of that back? Nope.

So what did Jesus sacrifice then?

 

[Twilight Hue]

If you don’t think Jesus Christ made a tremendously difficult sacrifice, then I don’t think you realize the depth of what took place.
Much more was occurring on the cross that His physical suffering, which was horrendous. I don’t think you or I can imagine it or the weight of carrying the sins of the world; every sin of every person that has ever lived or ever will. As bad as the physical suffering, I don’t think it compares to the separation Jesus endured as His Father turned His back on His beloved Son who bore the sins of the world. As well the grief the Father endured turning from His Son.


If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin.

Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross

So the sacrifice is just the pain and suffering alone that passes and then it's back to feeling good again.

Crucifixion dosent hold the corner market on the horrible apex means to exact pain and suffering on a person.

Ask Vlad the Impaler.

 

[Kenny]

Do they get any of that back? Nope.

So what did Jesus sacrifice then?

yes - the soldier goes home to a county that is in liberty and the one out debt can now enjoy life with extra money for enjoyment

if Jesus didn’t get something back it would be the holes in his hands the pierced side and the experience of suffering that now you and I don’t have to experience

 

[Twilight Hue]

yes - the soldier goes home to a county that is in liberty and the one out debt can now enjoy life with extra money for enjoyment

if Jesus didn’t get something back it would be the holes in his hands the pierced side and the experience of suffering that now you and I don’t have to experience

There's a lot of people who still have horrible painful lives so nothing has changed.

 

[InChrist]

So the sacrifice is just the pain and suffering alone that passes and then it's back to feeling good again.

Crucifixion dosent hold the corner market on the horrible apex means to exact pain and suffering on a person.

Ask Vlad the Impaler.

It doesn’t appear you read anything I said.

 

[InChrist]

There's a lot of people who still have horrible painful lives so nothing has changed.

That’s true because this is a fallen world where bad things happen. Because it is a fallen world corrupted by sin, where horrible things happen, it will be destroyed. A new heaven and earth will replace it, free of sin and it’s painful consequences.
Jesus arose in victory over sin and is calling people out of this fallen world before time is up, to eternal life in the new heaven and earth.


Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:11-13

 

[Sargonski]

That’s true because this is a fallen world where bad things happen. Because it is a fallen world corrupted by sin, where horrible things happen, it will be destroyed. A new heaven and earth will replace it, free of sin and it’s painful consequences.
Jesus arose in victory over sin and is calling people out of this fallen world before time is up, to eternal life in the new heaven and earth.


Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:11-13

Hearken not to the words of Pious Fraud .. the busy hands of men .. and the corruption wrought forth by the Chief God on earth through his minions .. and to the words of our Lord and Savior for the Path the way and the light. Jesus didn't say nothing about some of the stuff you talking ..

This what he Lord Jesus say .. and all you need worry about ... how to make it through Judgement being the topic of conversation .. Matt 25 - Sheep and Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[YoursTrue]

What does that have to do with sacrifice?

Jesus knew what was going to happen to him. It's in the scriptures written before he was on the earth, he could read them. He suffered and died because of maltreatment and false accusations. He could have avoided this. He prayed to his Father the last night he was on earth in his natural human body, saying: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.” (Matthew 26:39-44) Glad you asked because it helped me to review the scriptures, and about sacrifice. There's more to cover about sacrifice, though.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My perspective:

The good news of the arrival of the long-awaiting Kingdom of God is not contingent upon either Jesus death nor upon his resurrection, because in the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John both Jesus and his disciples travel about preaching this gospel. He hasn't died, yet he is preaching the gospel. I know that stating it briefly like this leaves many questions unanswered. The death and resurrection of Jesus are important, but they are not the gospel.

 

[Kenny]

There's a lot of people who still have horrible painful lives so nothing has changed.

Yes, there is still a lot of horrible painful lives. But what has changed is that now God understands the pain and can be a help in time of need.

 

[Kenny]

My perspective:

The good news of the arrival of the long-awaiting Kingdom of God is not contingent upon either Jesus death nor upon his resurrection, because in the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John both Jesus and his disciples travel about preaching this gospel. He hasn't died, yet he is preaching the gospel. I know that stating it briefly like this leaves many questions unanswered. The death and resurrection of Jesus are important, but they are not the gospel.

That is quite an interesting take. I will agree that the issue is the Kingdom of God that is within us… but what do you think the death and resurrection is for then?

 

[Colt]

I don’t think so.

If all He did was die, they He is nothing more than a martyr.

The Gospel includes a resurrection that says that death's authority died. The Gospel, IMV, is where God became flesh as an immigrant into this world and experienced what no King would even consider, the pain of humanity to redeem humanity from his ultimate destruction. (I think we all can see this world’s population destroying itself)

1) He came to live as we did. To experience what He never experienced
2) He came to save us from ourselves and to free us to a new level of living
3) He conquered the authority of Death, Hell and the Grave in His resurrection
4) He offers a new life with a new authority and a new way of living.

So the symbol of the Cross needs to be an empty Cross and maybe an empty grave? He has resurrected!

The original Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 4:23 the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind, was neither the death nor the resurrection.

The religion OF Jesus was a life dedicated to doing Gods will. If one was separated from God then they could repent, accept forgiveness and in turn forgive others.

Christianity became a religion ABOUT Jesus and the Pagan theory that Jesus came to die as an atoning sin sacrifice. Blood sacrifice was always a Pagan belief, thats who the Israelites adopted it from.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, there is still a lot of horrible painful lives. But what has changed is that now God understands the pain and can be a help in time of need.

I don't lend credence to metaphysical thoughts anymore.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That is quite an interesting take. I will agree that the issue is the Kingdom of God that is within us… but what do you think the death and resurrection is for then?

It is not until the very end of his life that his disciples become aware that Jesus is required to submit and die like a criminal in shame. As the Levites are condemned to become the butchers, so is Judas is condemned to become the traitor. We are not told if Jesus has instructed Judas on specifics and if it is a personal betrayal or a formalized one, but Judas later kills himself. He resents betraying Jesus.

Jesus is killed through a betrayal, and so his murder is illegitimate in one more way. In every way possible he ought not to have been killed had the law been perfect or perfectly followed. Everything went wrong! The leaders failed to catch the error, and they approved of Jesus death. The High Priest did nothing to save him. Jesus shows that the law has failed to preserve an innocent person, bringing all of it into question.

Further embarrassment: Jesus is resurrected. Now we know for sure that the law failed. Here is this innocent man who was condemned. Somehow the law killed him.

 

[Kenny]

It is not until the very end of his life that his disciples become aware that Jesus is required to submit and die like a criminal in shame. As the Levites are condemned to become the butchers, so is Judas is condemned to become the traitor. We are not told if Jesus has instructed Judas on specifics and if it is a personal betrayal or a formalized one, but Judas later kills himself. He resents betraying Jesus.

Jesus is killed through a betrayal, and so his murder is illegitimate in one more way. In every way possible he ought not to have been killed had the law been perfect or perfectly followed. Everything went wrong! The leaders failed to catch the error, and they approved of Jesus death. The High Priest did nothing to save him. Jesus shows that the law has failed to preserve an innocent person, bringing all of it into question.

Further embarrassment: Jesus is resurrected. Now we know for sure that the law failed. Here is this innocent man who was condemned. Somehow the law killed him.

That is a view I hadn‘t thought of.

Thanks.

 

[Kenny]

My perspective:

The good news of the arrival of the long-awaiting Kingdom of God is not contingent upon either Jesus death nor upon his resurrection, because in the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John both Jesus and his disciples travel about preaching this gospel. He hasn't died, yet he is preaching the gospel. I know that stating it briefly like this leaves many questions unanswered. The death and resurrection of Jesus are important, but they are not the gospel.

Another thought…

What was contingent on his death?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Another thought…

What was contingent on his death?

What happens if an innocent man approved of by God is killed by using the law to kill him? Does the law itself become guilty? That cannot happen, so it means that Israel will suffer again, must go back into refinement.

Out of this we also get Romans 7 which ponders whether the law is evil, rejecting the idea, then reflecting guilt onto the flesh vs the spirit. The spirit he considers to be good but what spirit? Its likely the spirit of adoption. The condemnation of Jesus is taken to mean that the problem must have been his flesh, so he was rightly condemned to death because he was a human.

Paul argues here that each person is atoned (made one) with the Jewish nation if we live by the spirit. In chapter 8 he says we each have received the cry of adoption which within us cries out to the same father as the Jews. Its the heavenly Father Jesus talks about. He says our bodies, too, will be redeemed eventually. He doesn't explain but there are different ways to see this redemption. 1 Peter says that we suffer, too, and bear the weight of glory. Its not just the Jews anymore. All suffer together, now, and the name of the LORD prevents the destruction of all, now. All of this comes from the death of the innocent man Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does that have to do with sacrifice?

Adam could Not undo the wrong he did - sin.
Jesus could do the right that he did - not sin.
Because we come from fallen-father Adam we can't undo the wrongs we do.
So, we need someone who can undo the damage Satan and Adam caused us.
Since we are innocent of what Satan and Adam did is a reason why God sent sinless Jesus to Earth for us.
Jesus took our place in the death sentence that Adam passed on to us.
Jesus' perfect sinless life paid the price tag of sin for us as Paid in Full thus allowing a resurrection for us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christ was not sacrificed.
According to the story, he returned begging the question as to what was sacrificed.

What story where ? Not in chapter 24 of Luke.
Jesus sacrificed ( gave up his 'sinless life' for us ) to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
Adam could Not undo the damage he caused us. Like Adam We sin We die.
We can't resurrect oneself nor resurrect another, so we need someone who can resurrect us.
The sacrificed sinless life of Jesus paid the price tag for our sins as Paid in Full.
Thus Jesus can and will resurrect us - Revelation 1:18