The Great Deception of Christianity - Departing the Faith (the Word)

[sojourner]

Yet you are not able to prove why it is you disagree or to show why from the scriptures

Scriptures don’t prove or disprove scriptures. Your jumping up and down asking for that kind of proof doesn’t mean that the nature of the texts magically change.

ll you have proven is what I have already said. You do not believe the scriptures

I believe them for what they are, not for what you imagine them to be.

BTW, you’re not offering any proof that they are what you say they are. By your criteria, this shows that you don’t know or follow the Bible for what it is. Does this not concern you? It should!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Denying God's Word is the same as not believing them in my opinion.

This is fallacious reasoning. As someone else in the forum already said, if David Koresh taught God's word, would not believing in Koresh be the same as not believing in Gods word?

 

[3rdAngel]

This is fallacious reasoning. As someone else in the forum already said, if David Koresh taught God's word, would not believing in Koresh be the same as not believing in Gods word?

I only see this post as a distraction to avoid addressing the scriptures in the OP. I believe your the one providing fallacious reasoning. If God's Word says thou shalt not kill and you say no I do not believe it and go out and kill someone is that believing or disbelieving and denying God's Word?

 

[3rdAngel]

Scriptures don’t prove or disprove scriptures. Your jumping up and down asking for that kind of proof doesn’t mean that the nature of the texts magically change.

The OP and topic of discussion is the scriptures. If you do not believe them perhaps this is not the place for you. Do you have anything to share in relation to the OP? Well I guess no if you do not know what the scriptures teach.

I believe them for what they are, not for what you imagine them to be.

Yet here you still are not able to prove your point.

BTW, you’re not offering any proof that they are what you say they are. By your criteria, this shows that you don’t know or follow the Bible for what it is. Does this not concern you? It should!

This only shows you have not read the OP but thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[3rdAngel]

They love darkness because hurting people makes them happy.

Those who love to live in darkness (lies) do not come to the light (truth). If God's light says; do not lie and someone says no I like to lie. Do those who lie when they have been given a knowledge of the truth but reject it, live in darkness or light? If they live in darkness they are condemned already because they choose to believe lies and live in the dark rather then be healed and come to the light and follow God's Word.

 

[3rdAngel]

My experience has been people who are obsessed with hate, evil, and sin are the ones who are the most hateful, evil, and sinful. Sometimes it's better not to judge and just see the best in people.

I believe those who hate do not know God, but to tell the truth is not hate but love because love always points to the truth. We are only free to love in truth because it is only in truth we find how to love. God is a Spirit and those who whorship him according to the scriptures must worship him in Spirit and in truth. JESUS (the Word) is the way to truth and and life. Many are called but few are chosen because broard is the way that leads to death and many go in there at but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it.

 

[3rdAngel]

I have a very friendly comment. I don't think any words in the Bible were written by God. The words in the Bible were written by men. I think it could possible be the height of human hubris and possibly man's greatest possible sin to pretend to speak for God on Earth. God is beyond our comprehension.

I think the problem is most people are lazy and want to be told what to think. I don't think this how the Bible works. If you want to discover God you have to do the hard work of figuring it all out on your own.

According to the scriptures JESUS is the way the truth and the life. He is also the Word of God. I believe the only way to God is through JESUS as we seek him through his Word. Every other way according to the scriptures is for theives and robbers that lead us away from God. There is no need to find God on our own when we have already been shown the way. To do so I believe is to deny God and his Word.

 

[sojourner]

The OP and topic of discussion is the scriptures. If you do not believe them perhaps this is not the place for you. Do you have anything to share in relation to the OP? Well I guess no if you do not know what the scriptures teach

This has nothing to do with whether I believe what you believe. it has everything to do with your misrepresentation of the texts.

Yet here you still are not able to prove your point

YOU have proved my point. It’s as if you’ve claimed, “A Chevy is an animal indigenous to Africa. God spoke to me and told me so. Therefore, since the Chevy drinks gasoline, we, too should drink gasoline. Because that’s what a Chevy is, because that’s what I believe the Chevy says it is.

It just has nothing to do with the reality of the nature of the texts. No further proof is necessary on my part. You’ve perfectly destroyed your own argument. I’m just pointing out that destruction.

This only shows you have not read the OP but thanks for sharing your opinion

It only shows how far you’ve stuffed yourself down a rabbit hole.

 

[metis]

I believe you are very misguided.

I posted facts that are and can be rather easily sourced even from a non-denominational site, such as Wikipedia, thus I am not the one whom is being "misguided". I can point some other such sources out if you wish.

Paul said the Church is to be "one body", and Jesus rather clearly created that one body. However, unfortunately that "one body" is no more, often for mainly political differences that are unfortunate but understandable.

The whole idea of the RCC having everything correct and everyone else is wrong is strictly egocentric and not from God.

I never said nor implied that, and it is terribly bankrupt for you to put words and thoughts into my mind and mouth that are simply not there. If your concept of Christianity is to make ad hominem attacks and false claims, then I truly think you should rethink whose teachings you really wish to follow. It's far more moral within basic Christian teachings to ask someone what they believe before jumping to conclusions.

BTW, I grew up within Protestantism until my mid-20's, and I still visit these churches occasionally, and without prejudice. If you check across from my avatar, you'll see that I have been involved in ecumenical activities, which implicitly means that I see other Christians, and also non-Christians, as being brothers & sisters in faith. If you cannot accept that, then we will be parting ways.

 

[3rdAngel]

This has nothing to do with whether I believe what you believe. it has everything to do with your misrepresentation of the texts.

All I am hearing again is empty words and claims you are not able to prove. What misrepresentation of the texts do you claim I have made? How can you claim misrepresentation of scripture when you have provided none to prove anything you have said and you do not know the scriptures or believe them?

YOU have proved my point. It’s as if you’ve claimed, “A Chevy is an animal indigenous to Africa. God spoke to me and told me so. Therefore, since the Chevy drinks gasoline, we, too should drink gasoline. Because that’s what a Chevy is, because that’s what I believe the Chevy says it is.

Nonsense. You have been provided scripture. Your response is to make up stories like this one that have nothing to do with the scriptures provided as evidence and fact that show why your teachings are in error. If you believe anything that has been provided here is not true prove it. Ignoring God's Word does nto make it disappear.

It just has nothing to do with the reality of the nature of the texts. No further proof is necessary on my part. You’ve perfectly destroyed your own argument. I’m just pointing out that destruction.

This is applied to you as shown in the previous section. As posted earlier ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

It only shows how far you’ve stuffed yourself down a rabbit hole.

Says someone that makes empty claims and accusations and cannot prove anything they are claiming. Let me know when you want to discuss the scriptures. Until then we will have to agree to disagree

 

[sojourner]

All I am hearing again is empty words and claims you are not able to prove.

You're still not listening.

Nonsense. You have been provided scripture.

Nonsense. I've been provided with your "interpretations."

This is applied to you as shown in the previous section. As posted earlier ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

Your posts could use some of this medicine.

Let me know when you want to discuss the scriptures

Same goes.

 

[3rdAngel]

You're still not listening. Nonsense. I've been provided with your "interpretations." Your posts could use some of this medicine. Same goes.

Sure I am listening. You have been provided scripture. Your response is to ignore it because you do not blieve it. Prove to me from the scriptures anything shared with you is not true. If you cannot than we pretend you want to talk scripture if you do not know the scriptures and what they teach? All you provide is your own opinions not supported by evidence which to me are simply you jumping up and down saying no because you say so. You are free of course to believe as you wish but for me I choose to believe and follow the scriptures.

 

[sojourner]

You have been provided scripture. Your response is to ignore it because you do not blieve it

My response is to ignore it because it’s not relevant and your use of it is wrong.

Prove to me from the scriptures anything shared with you is not true

Scriptures don’t prove scriptures. That’s not their job.

 

[3rdAngel]

My response is to ignore it because it’s not relevant and your use of it is wrong. Scriptures don’t prove scriptures. That’s not their job.

Nonsense, you ignore the scriptures because you do not believe them and they prove you wrong. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God. Ignoring God's Word does not make them disappear.

 

[dfnj]

I believe those who hate do not know God, but to tell the truth is not hate but love because love always points to the truth. We are only free to love in truth because it is only in truth we find how to love. God is a Spirit and those who whorship him according to the scriptures must worship him in Spirit and in truth. JESUS (the Word) is the way to truth and and life. Many are called but few are chosen because broard is the way that leads to death and many go in there at but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it.

So they say. I do not accept the premise there is only one way. My faith is totally and completely in God and not the people who wrote the Bible or the people who interpret it.

My faith is in an omnipotent of unconditional love. So when we die, everyone gets a chance to go into the light. Nobody is denied. Our God of unconditional love allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion.

I think what happens when we die, we go into the light, we look into the face of God, and we experience God's infinite beauty. Experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience. We become so enamored time stops. We no longer have conscious thoughts. All our needs and desires are met as we achieve a state of total and absolute fulfillment.

I don't think there is justice in the afterlife. I don't believe in the cruel and unusual punishment of eternal damnation. Only reason the idea of eternal damnation is so popular is people who can't find justice in real life take solace in the idea. People who are petty and unforgiving love the idea of having a final revenge against people they believe deserve it. If you want justice I don't think it's going to come from God. If you want justice it is up to each us to find it before death. The problem with God judging people is our omnipotent God is whole, complete, and fully perfect without any needs or desires. So what reason would God have to police human beings? What is in it for God to dole out eternal damnation? Nothing. God has everything God needs.

You might think I'm crazy. You might think I am going to suffer eternal damnation. I don't care what you think. I am not afraid. I am not afraid because my faith in God's unconditional love is much stronger than any fear you are going to throw at me.

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense, you ignore the scriptures because you do not believe them and they prove you wrong. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God. Ignoring God's Word does not make them disappear.

You’re hilarious, the fantasies you dream up.

 

[dfnj]

According to the scriptures JESUS is the way the truth and the life. He is also the Word of God. I believe the only way to God is through JESUS as we seek him through his Word. Every other way according to the scriptures is for theives and robbers that lead us away from God. There is no need to find God on our own when we have already been shown the way. To do so I believe is to deny God and his Word.

I could listen to you but I do not accept your authority over me. The problem with scripture it was written by men and NOT by God.

For example, consider these gems:

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:

“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

If scripture got the morality of slavery wrong why should I accept what you are telling me Jesus is the only way. Jesus might be one way. But I doubt Jesus is the only way.

Unlike you, I do not trust anything someone tells me to believe. I believe absolute authority comes from within. Anyone who tells you differently is either trying to sell you something or get you to join the power structure of their cult.

You don't have to respond. There's nothing you are going to say that will change my rule about absolute authority.

 

[3rdAngel]

I do not accept the premise there is only one way. My faith is totally and completely in God and not the people who wrote the Bible or the people who interpret it.

Yes a lot of people say this. Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. If you believe the scriptures are right and if they are (I believe they are) then you would not want to be on the side that believes you can enter heaven outside of God's appointed way. I believe that there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.

My faith is in an omnipotent of unconditional love. So when we die, everyone gets a chance to go into the light. Nobody is denied. Our God of unconditional love allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. I think what happens when we die, we go into the light, we look into the face of God, and we experience God's infinite beauty. Experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience. We become so enamored time stops. We no longer have conscious thoughts. All our needs and desires are met as we achieve a state of total and absolute fulfillment.

The scriptures do not teach what you claim here. They teach that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and without atonement there is no forgiveness. To me I guess this is the part your missing and without it I believe you will not see God.

I don't think there is justice in the afterlife. I don't believe in the cruel and unusual punishment of eternal damnation. Only reason the idea of eternal damnation is so popular is people who can't find justice in real life take solace in the idea. People who are petty and unforgiving love the idea of having a final revenge against people they believe deserve it. If you want justice I don't think it's going to come from God. If you want justice it is up to each us to find it before death. The problem with God judging people is our omnipotent God is whole, complete, and fully perfect without any needs or desires. So what reason would God have to police human beings? What is in it for God to dole out eternal damnation? Nothing. God has everything God needs.

Depends on what you mean bu cruel unusual eternal demnation. The scriptures do not teach the concept of eternal burning hell that comes from Roman Catholacism. This is a false teaching. I believe the scriptures do teach that there is justice and a judgement however and we all stand before God come judgement day. Sin is the thing that will keep you out of Heaven and separates us from God according to the scriptures.

You might think I'm crazy. You might think I am going to suffer eternal damnation. I don't care what you think. I am not afraid. I am not afraid because my faith in God's unconditional love is much stronger than any fear you are going to throw at me.

No I do not think you crazy at all. Only one of the many trying to seek God is a different way to His appointed way and a fulfillment of prophecy confirming God's Word true.

Thanks for sharing your view dfnj. Nice talking to you.

 

[3rdAngel]

You’re hilarious, the fantasies you dream up.

TIme will tell if the scriptures you do not believe are true or not. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed. Tick tock goes the clock. I believe many will find out at that time only too late what they lost because they did not believe and follow God's Word but choose to turn away from it.

 

[3rdAngel]

"The problem with scripture it was written by men and NOT by God.

I am sorry I believe the scriptures are God's Word and that.."All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" *2 TIMOTHY 3:16

For example, consider these gems: No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Sorry this is God's Word, for me I believe what God says.

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people: “This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

Sorry this is God's Word, for me I believe what God says. According to the scriptures these peoples had turned away from God and God used ISRAEAL to bring judgement to those who rejected him.

No. 3: A command of Moses: “Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

Indeed those who do not believe and follow God seek power outside of God and to the enemies of God that are at war with God who we call spiritual powers in high places *(devil or Satan)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church: “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

The scriptures speaks of the punishment of Babylon. v8 says O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewards you as you have served us. The Hebrew words used here is גּמל; gâm which means treated us another word this is what the Babylonians did to the Jews and her destruction is coming in the same way.

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where a Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

The scriptures here are not a commandmenet but a historical record of an evil that was committed in ISRAEAL. Nothing more and nothing less. The things that men do are not the things that God does.

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans: “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

Indeed Homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes and one of the reasons Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed by fire in the old testament. JESUS says in the new testament it will be the same just before the second coming. Homosexuality is confusion and an abomination in God's eyes.

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out: “And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

Moral of the story do not make rash vows to God. This life is only temporary probation for heaven and does not mean anything as God is able to raise up from the dead all those who believe and follow his Word.

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son: ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

Surface reading the scriptures always leads to a misunderstanding of them. This story was told to give a much deeper meaning but because you do not understand the scriptures you do not understand them. Here let's add the context and the back ground scriptures and shed more light as to why this story was made.

1. God promises to Abraham that He will establish his covenant through his son Isaac to make him and his seed a great nation. *GENESIS 17:19
2. God tempts Abraham and asks him to sacrifice his Son *GENESIS 22:1-2
3. The reason why Abraham did not say no and followed what God says is given in HEBREWS 11:17-19;

HEBREWS 11:17-19 [17], By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises (God's covenant to Abraham through Isaac) offered up his only begotten son, [18], Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall your seed be called (ref GENESIS 22:1-2): [19], ACCOUNTING THAT GOD WAS ABLE TO RAISE HIM UP FROM THE DEAD; from where also he received him in a figure.

These are the scriptures above that give the reason why Abraham did not say No to God when God asked him to sacrifice his Son.

The reasons being we are told from the scriptures is that...

1. Abraham believed God when God told him that he will make his covenant with Isaac and make him a great nation *HEBREWS 11:18; GENESIS 17:19 and...
2. Abraham believed if God was going to make his covenant with Isaac that if he wanted him to sacrifice his son, God would be able to raise him from the dead.
3. Abrahams experience was a demonstration of complete faith and trust in God that he would fulfill his promises in making Isaac a great nation no matter what *HEBREWS 11:17-19
4. The story was also a symbolic parable and lesson to teach God's people a number of things...

1. God does not condone child sacrifices; God provided a his own sacrifice.

TRUE MESSAGE AND MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURES...

2. The story was to teach us, God's love for mankind by sending JESUS to be the sacrifice for our sins. God provided his own sacrifice by sending us his only begotten son that whoever belives in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

Sounds about right. Reason being is that the man is the head of the family and that Eve first sinned in the Garden of Eden *EPEHSIANS 5:23; 1 TIMOTHY 2:11-14

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18) If scripture got the morality of slavery wrong why should I accept what you are telling me Jesus is the only way. Jesus might be one way. But I doubt Jesus is the only way.

There was many reasons for slavery in the old and new testament scriptures. These included spoils of war (people were made slaves), poverty and survival (working for food and shelter) and paying off debt for money or something owed. God never condones slavery but provided guidence for how those that were victoms of war, poverty and debt were to be treated. Alternatively, those that did not join themelves to others for survival would die of starvation and poverty. We are all in a type of slavery today having to work for someone in order to make a living unless we are fortunate enough to have our own business. Same principles apply.

Unlike you, I do not trust anything someone tells me to believe. I believe absolute authority comes from within. Anyone who tells you differently is either trying to sell you something or get you to join the power structure of their cult.

This is where we would disagree. I believe that the someone you refer to here is God and I believe and follow what he says. For someone that knows God and God has revealed himself to that person, there is no explanation needed here, we are simply a part of the world-wide collective witness that know God and are known by God.

You don't have to respond. There's nothing you are going to say that will change my rule about absolute authority.

Likewise, there is nothing you can say that will change my love for God or His Word. Everyone, walks their own path as I believe we are all only accountable to God come judgement day. Nice talking to you dfnj.